Was Jesus the God of the Old Testament?

Open Heart · Sep 27, 2017

Saved.By.Grace said:
Ecclesiastes 12:1 says, "Remember also your Creators in the days of your youth". Again the PLURAL is used.

No it's not, you have misquoted. Click on the link for that verse. It says Creator, singular.

Open Heart · Sep 27, 2017

Saved.By.Grace said:
John 1:1, says, " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". The English "with" is the Greek "pros", that is, "face to face", or "besides another". We have TWO Who are EQUALLY DEITY. In Matthew 28:19, we read, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit". The word "Name" is in the SINGULAR, with can only be YAHWEH. "Father", "Son" and "Holy Spirit", are prefixed with the definite article, showing Their Distinction as PERSONS, and Unity, as GOD!

The New Testament is DIFFERENT. I'm not arguing that the New Testament isn't Trinitarian. My statement was that the Old Testament doesn't refer to a pluralistic deity. It describes God as Echad, One.

Open Heart · Sep 27, 2017

iwbswiaihl said:
Actually I was answering someone who said the triune God is not mentioned in the OT, so it really is you who is suggesting I was trying to indicate a plural God. I was simply showing that Godhead is mentioned and do believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one in essence but are the Trinity. Here O Israel the Lord our God is one.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. If you want to say that the NT teaches the Trinity, and then read that trinity back into the OT, then fine. But the moment you try to say that the OT teaches the trinity, that's when I disagree. Shalom.

Butch5 · Sep 27, 2017

mmbattlestar said:
I believe he was, and is the God Yahweh, and the God from Genesis and all of the other OT. Why? Several reasons. For one, scripture says so. John 1:1-3, John 1:18, John 5:37, John 6:46 states:

John 1:1-3,

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:18,

"No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known."

John 5:37,

"And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,"

John 6:46,

"No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father."

So we learn from these four verses that Jesus is God, who was always with God the Father, and he created everything we see along with the Father. We also learn that nobody has ever seen God except for Jesus. Even Jesus himself states that nobody has seen God the Father but him. But wait! Adam and Eve saw God! Isaiah saw God! Ezekiel saw God! Countless people of the OT saw God! So, either Jesus is lying or Jesus is stating that he is the mighty Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament that created the heavens and the Earth and all we see around us. The Jews knew what Jesus was saying when he stated these things along with when he said in John 8:58:

John 8:58,

"Before Abraham was born, I am!"

To which the Jews tried to stone him for because God called himself "I am" in Exodus 3:14.

Exodus 3:14

"God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

So what do you think? Was Jesus the God of the Old Testament? Or was Jesus just plain a God along with the Father and God the Father is the God of the OT? Tell me what you think. I'm curious.

The Father is the God of the Old Testament. Jesus is the one who is called the Angle of the Lord.

Neostarwcc · Sep 27, 2017

I'll reply to this thread tomorrow morning. There's some really good points in this thread to reply to!

RaymondG · Sep 27, 2017

Baby Cottontail said:
Thanks for the clarification. I don't know the biblical languages. I just hear what other people say that are more knowledgable than I.

And then you blindly believe them and go preach the same message to others?

Baby Cottontail · Sep 27, 2017

RaymondG said:
And then you blindly believe them and go preach the same message to others?

I don't blindly believe people. And if I don't know for sure, I do try to state that I don't know for sure. I do feel very inadequate on this site because there are a lot of people who know way more than I do about the Christian faith and Scripture.

Perhaps some of them might wish it if folks like me would keep our mouths shut. I don't know. If that is the case, then I can do that.

T.S.Bland · Sep 27, 2017

Open Heart said:
I'm not sure what you are saying here. If you want to say that the NT teaches the Trinity, and then read that trinity back into the OT, then fine. But the moment you try to say that the OT teaches the trinity, that's when I disagree. Shalom.

God is omnipresent. Jesus is God.
Time...in our human existence is irrelevant.

RaymondG · Sep 27, 2017

Baby Cottontail said:
I don't blindly believe people. And if I don't know for sure, I do try to state that I don't know for sure. I do feel very inadequate on this site because there are a lot of people who know way more than I do about the Christian faith and Scripture.

Perhaps some of them might wish it if folks like me would keep our mouths shut. I don't know. If that is the case, then I can do that.

Even a fool when he holds his tongue is accounted wise. However, what you are seeing is man's wisdom. Wisdom gained from books and schools and reasoning with the carnal mind. Man's wisdom....which is foolishness to God. Here's how you can tell the difference.....If man's wisdom is opposed, people get angry, because they spent many hours and years to gain this knowledge, so they fight to protect it. If you are sharing wisdom of God and get opposed, you don't get angry....because you know You probably wouldn't have believed it as well, had it not come directly from God.

"I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes."

Sometimes being ignorant and unlearnt is not so bad...

"Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marveled;"

RaymondG · Sep 27, 2017

redleghunter said:
Whoa just wanted to know why you chose those verses.

The first one from Isaiah 45:7 is usually used by people trying to prove God created evil.

I remember how go a debater you are, and didn't want to waste your time. You are right people usually do use those verses that way. But I'm quite Unusual..... and peculiar. Don't think you will be able to compare me with others.

T.S.Bland · Sep 27, 2017

Open Heart said:
There is absolutely no awareness in the OT that God is trine. On the contrary, the OT states that God is Echad, One.

In the beginning... God the father

And God said let there be....
This was the Word..Jesus

And with a Breath the waters were devided......This is the Holy Spirit.

Three Persons One Being.

This is Genesis. The Triune God of creation.

Never separate. Forever One.

RaymondG · Sep 27, 2017

T.S.Bland said:
In the beginning... God the father

And God said let there be....
This was the Word..Jesus

And with a Breath the waters were devided......This is the Holy Spirit.

Three Persons One Being.

This is Genesis. The Triune God of creation.

Never separate. Forever One.

Why is it necessary to separate God's breathe and words into persons and make a doctrine out of it? Why cant we just tell the story as is without adding "Now you see His breath?...Now thats a God person too.... But not separate, but the same."

T.S.Bland · Sep 27, 2017

RaymondG said:
Why is it necessary to separate God's breathe and words into persons and make a doctrine out of it? Why cant we just tell the story as is without adding "Now you see His breath?...Now thats a God person too.... But not separate, but the same."

The Trinity is present in the entire Bible. I was hoping my response would inspire the person I replied to. I do not know why the Bible was written this way. I can see the Trinity in it clearly.
It is beautiful and perfectly orchestrated.

Devin P · Sep 27, 2017

mmbattlestar said:
I believe he was, and is the God Yahweh, and the God from Genesis and all of the other OT. Why? Several reasons. For one, scripture says so. John 1:1-3, John 1:18, John 5:37, John 6:46 states:

John 1:1-3,

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:18,

"No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known."

John 5:37,

"And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,"

John 6:46,

"No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father."

So we learn from these four verses that Jesus is God, who was always with God the Father, and he created everything we see along with the Father. We also learn that nobody has ever seen God except for Jesus. Even Jesus himself states that nobody has seen God the Father but him. But wait! Adam and Eve saw God! Isaiah saw God! Ezekiel saw God! Countless people of the OT saw God! So, either Jesus is lying or Jesus is stating that he is the mighty Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament that created the heavens and the Earth and all we see around us. The Jews knew what Jesus was saying when he stated these things along with when he said in John 8:58:

John 8:58,

"Before Abraham was born, I am!"

To which the Jews tried to stone him for because God called himself "I am" in Exodus 3:14.

Exodus 3:14

"God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

So what do you think? Was Jesus the God of the Old Testament? Or was Jesus just plain a God along with the Father and God the Father is the God of the OT? Tell me what you think. I'm curious.

That and יהוה Himself had Moses tell us this all the way back in Genesis in the genealogies between Adam - Noah

An awesome message hidden about our Savior in the book of Genesis in the genealogies from Adam to Noah.

Adam - Man
Seth - Appointed
Enosh - Mortal
Kenan - Sorrow;
Mahalalel - The Blessed God
Jared - Shall Come Down
Enoch - Teaching
Methuselah - His Death Shall Bring
Lamech - The Despairing
Noah - Rest, or Comfort

When it’s put together, it says:
Man appointed mortal sorrow; The Blessed God shall come down teaching His death shall bring the despairing, rest.

Dartman · Sep 27, 2017

Baby Cottontail said:
Thanks for answering my question.

You are very welcome.

Baby Cottontail said:
Many Christian groups have been persecuted by other Christian groups due to differences of beliefs. Some of my ancestors were killed and imprisoned, too. (Some of my ancestors were Mennonites.)

Very true! And at times the trinitarians have been badly mistreated. Being persecuted is certainly NOT proof that we have the truth. But, being in the majority is almost always a sign we are wrong.

Baby Cottontail said:
It sounds like you are very angry by the way that those who held to your theology were treated by other Christians.

Heavens no! I am not angry at all. Disappointed, yes.

Baby Cottontail said:
I didn't say that there were two Beings. I have constantly said three Persons. There is only one Being.

No, there are two beings. Jehovah/YHVH God who told Moses in
Ex 3:13-14 And Moses said to God, Behold, I shall go forth to the children of Israel, and shall say to them, The God of our fathers has sent me to you; and they will ask me, What is his name? What shall I say to them? 14 And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you.
Jesus very clearly taught that he and his Father count as two beings;
John 8:16-18 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. 17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

redleghunter · Sep 27, 2017

Dartman said:
There is NO WAY two beings can be the same being!
This ludicrous theory defies God's creation we can see around us every day,

The Godhead was not created but the uncreated Creator.

The Biblical truth is there is One God.

The Biblical Truth is the Father is Person with attributes of the One True God. The Son is Person with attributes of the One True God. The Holy Spirit is Person with attributes of the One True God.

Ludicrous? No. Just Biblical truth.

Maybe you were thinking The Triune God Who is One as a paradox.

There are quite a few other paradoxes in the Bible.

Sometimes we don't get to choose the monolithic human understanding given God has not fully revealed Himself to us. Quite humbling.

redleghunter · Sep 27, 2017

Dartman said:
No I am not a Jehovah's Witness. Their movement split from us in the 1800's. I am a member of the Church of God, which the Catholics split from beginning in apostolic times, and then began persecuting my brothers and sisters. Due to the fact that history is written by the victors, you will ONLY find my doctrines being CLEARLY, and SIMPLY stated in the New Testament, and being PREACHED in EVERY SERMON IN THE BOOK OF ACTS.

I heard Herbert W. Armstrong present this alternative history back in the 80s.

Open Heart · Sep 28, 2017

T.S.Bland said:
In the beginning... God the father

And God said let there be....
This was the Word..Jesus

And with a Breath the waters were devided......This is the Holy Spirit.

Three Persons One Being.

This is Genesis. The Triune God of creation.

Never separate. Forever One.

You just added a whole awful lot to scriptures that isn't there.

Open Heart · Sep 28, 2017

Butch5 said:
The Father is the God of the Old Testament. Jesus is the one who is called the Angle of the Lord.

Well, that is one interpretation. Another interpetation is that the Angel of the LORD is simply an ANGEL of the LORD, not Christ at all.

Open Heart · Sep 28, 2017

staff edit

You are misquoting. It doesn't saying that Gods words (plural) are in the beginning with God and are God. It says something different. It says that LOGOS, which means WORD, not words, was God. John stole this term from the Stoics, who used LOGOS to refer to the Divine animinating principle behind the universe. John then augments the Stoic's understanding by saying that LOGOS is with God and IS God.

As God, Logos would have always existed.

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