What does this verse mean? Was Paul a liar?

TheSeabass

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A false accusation was being spread around that Paul took them "by guile", that is, Paul had other men (or some man) take a money collection from the Corinthians and those men then gave the money to Paul that Paul supposedly kept. Paul asks them "Did I take advantage of you by any of them whom I have sent unto you?" Paul is asking them for proof in identifying who the other man/men were that supposedly took money and gave it to Paul. Paul had enemies in Corinth going around spreading lies about him.
 
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SkyWriting

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2 Corinthians 12:16
But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit.

I find this very distressing. Surely Paul wasn't a liar, was he?

He thought a lot of Himself and this did not change much after his conversion.
This shows all personalities can still have Faith, even flawed ones like Paul.
The disiples did not turn into Jesus when they converted.
 
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Hidden In Him

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2 Corinthians 12:16
But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit.

I find this very distressing. Surely Paul wasn't a liar, was he?

"Craftiness" would be a better translation. It essentially means trickery or a stratagem, without an overtly "evil" connotation.
A false accusation was being spread around that Paul took them "by guile", that is, Paul had other men (or some man) take a money collection from the Corinthians and those men then gave the money to Paul that Paul supposedly kept. Paul asks them "Did I take advantage of you by any of them whom I have sent unto you?" Paul is asking them for proof in identifying who the other man/men were that supposedly took money and gave it to Paul. Paul had enemies in Corinth going around spreading lies about him.

Hmmm.. well that's an interesting interpretation, Seabass. But without wanting to sound unnecessarily contentious, wouldn't that have Paul admitting to a sin by stating "But being sly, I took you in by craftiness"? In that context it moves it from sarcasm over into an admission of guilt. I think he was simply saying that by being a financial giver instead of a taker, he used his money to "win them over" so to speak.
 
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rockytopva

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2 Corinthians 12:16
But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit.

I find this very distressing. Surely Paul wasn't a liar, was he?

But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile. - 2 Corinthians 12:16

Guile - Dolos in the Greek - dólos, dol'-os; from an obsolete primary verb, δέλλω déllō (probably meaning to decoy; compare G1185); a trick (bait), i.e. (figuratively) wile:—craft, deceit, guile, subtilty.

20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:
21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed. - 2 Corinthians 12:20-21

The Corinthean church was one that easily fell into sin. Therefore Paul had to show craftiness in dealing with them. He had to plan out his moves to expose the sin. He had to be crafty in his approach. He had to sit down and think and strategize, otherwise it would end up doing more harm than good.

Whenever a church is in deceit, it takes a strategy in dealing with them. Example is when people are politicking to church, it takes an approach to deal with them over the evil they are doing.
 
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Open Heart

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He thought a lot of Himself and this did not change much after his conversion.
This shows all personalities can still have Faith, even flawed ones like Paul.
The disiples did not turn into Jesus when they converted.
But did Paul DECEIVE (lie) in order to gain converts?
 
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faroukfarouk

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Would Paul use Sarcasm?
Jesus used hyperbole.
I think if we look at the passage, Paul is talking about the circumstances of his visits, and what his motives really are. Not always revealing immediately one's good motives to those who only dimly appreciate things is not blameworthy at all.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Hyperbole is a form of figurative speech. It is not the same as deceiving.

As per Post #7, I think it was slight hyperbole yes. In a way, he was portraying money as a type of bait used to lure them in (the Greek word was occasionally used literally of "bait"). Not that Paul's giving was their ultimate reason for converting. But he became a giver to them to make them all that much more receptive to his teachings, rather than insist on taking from them as an apostle, which might have had the opposite effect (1 Thessalonians 1:5, 1 Thessalonians 2:5-6).
 
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paul1149

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2 Corinthians 12:16
But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit.

I find this very distressing. Surely Paul wasn't a liar, was he?
I think we can rest assured that Paul was no liar. The original Greek has no punctuation, so this verse can be rendered a number of ways. The KJV has a strong tendency to avoid speculative punctuation, so it just presents the verse as a flat statement: "I took you by deceit." You would have to get the intent from the context.

But other translations add punctuation to show that Paul was not asserting a deceitful cleverness over the Corinthians, which would be absurd considering the rest of his writings and what Luke wrote about him in Acts. Thus, you can have him asking them, "I took you by deceit?", to try to reason with them, or using sarcasm to show them how crazy the thought was: "I took you by deceit!".

The questioning version of the phrase is the least bombastic, and probably the one I would go with. But then, Paul can surprise at times, so one never knows exactly how he wanted this to read. But one thing is for sure, he wasn't claiming to have scammed the Corinthians.
 
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rockytopva

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But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile. - 2 Corinthians 12:16

Guile - Dolos in the Greek - dólos, dol'-os; from an obsolete primary verb, δέλλω déllō (probably meaning to decoy; compare G1185); a trick (bait), i.e. (figuratively) wile:—craft, deceit, guile, subtilty.

20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:
21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed. - 2 Corinthians 12:20-21

The Corinthean church was one that easily fell into sin. Therefore Paul had to show craftiness in dealing with them. He had to plan out his moves to expose the sin. He had to be crafty in his approach. He had to sit down and think and strategize, otherwise it would end up doing more harm than good.

Whenever a church is in deceit, it takes a strategy in dealing with them. Example is when people are politicking to church, it takes an approach to deal with them over the evil they are doing.

Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. - 2 Corinthians 11:1-3

Please note... Paul was not trying to gain converts, rather he was seeking to expose sin, in which the Corinthians were easily subjected to. As their minds were beguiled by the serpent with subtilty, so it took a strategy in dealing with them.
 
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rockytopva

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14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. - 2 Peter 3:14-16

Peter recognized the challenges at hand Paul was experiencing and commended him over his efforts.
 
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TheSeabass

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"Craftiness" would be a better translation. It essentially means trickery or a stratagem, without an overtly "evil" connotation.


Hmmm.. well that's an interesting interpretation, Seabass. But without wanting to sound unnecessarily contentious, wouldn't that have Paul admitting to a sin by stating "But being sly, I took you in by craftiness"? In that context it moves it from sarcasm over into an admission of guilt. I think he was simply saying that by being a financial giver instead of a taker, he used his money to "win them over" so to speak.
Paul is not calling himself crafty or sly. Paul is using the words that his false accusers used against him. Paul's enemies accused Paul of being crafty in that he did not burden them by asking them directly for support but Paul slyly took money from them by sending other men to them to get money from them
 
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Hidden In Him

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Paul is not calling himself crafty or sly. Paul is using the words that his false accusers used against him. Paul's enemies accused Paul of being crafty in that he did not burden them by asking them directly for support but Paul slyly took money from them by sending other men to them to get money from them

I understood your point. Not a biggie. :oldthumbsup:
 
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