The value of prayer

stevil

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From the outside (never theist), I find prayer to be a somewhat strange ritual and perhaps something that the believers aren't unified with their understanding of it.

Being godless and a materialist/skeptic, I gravitate towards empirical evidence. So if someone tells me that prayer works in a way where you can pray for something tangible (such as "recovery from sickness") then I start to get interested. OK, if god heals people as a result of prayer, then you ought to be able to measure this.
If prayer to a particular god works then we ought to get significant statistical differences with regards to sickness recovery.
We could do large studies, find out if there is a difference in occurrences of recoveries based on the subjects being the target of prayer to specific gods.
If you find prayer to one specific god giving a statistical advantage then you could go further into studying what aspects of prayer work best:
Amount of prayers given
Amount of people praying
Proximity of prayer to the subject
Whether the prayer prayed from a church, a mosque, a synagog etc,
Whether the prayer was from a top a high mountain or down low to the sea, or in a city.
Whether the prayer was spoken out loud or in one's head, or in private or in public as a group prayer.

But generally, as all religous claims tend to be, I would expect prayer to be something un-measurable. The consequence of it being unmeasurable, means that there is no advantage to praying for measurable things. So that means praying for a loved one to be cured of a sickness will not result in a cure.
So then, what could you pray for?

I liken it to talking to your stuffed teady bear or perhaps writing in a diary.
You could say thanks, you could reflect on things that have happened or reflect on your own feelings. The teady, diary and god are all really great listeners.
 

stevil

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But there's nothing supernatural about prayer. And other than psychophysiological effects, it won't alter the course of events.
Do the believers think that they can alter events by praying for them?
If they do, how do they account for the fact that prayed for events don't happen more often than non prayed for events?
If they don't believe in prayed for events then why do they ask others to pray for them? (Do they ask others to pray for them?).

It seems with prayer, the god becomes a sort of Santa Claus.
 
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megan_26

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Do the believers think that they can alter events by praying for them?
If they do, how do they account for the fact that prayed for events don't happen more often than non prayed for events?
If they don't believe in prayed for events then why do they ask others to pray for them? (Do they ask others to pray for them?).

It seems with prayer, the god becomes a sort of Santa Claus.

A lot of prayer has to do with belief. God said to ask and you shall receive, knock and the door will be opened to you. But all of this has to be done with belief and faith that it'll happen. However, it is true that God doesn't answer every prayer exactly how we would like it to be answered. And we can't pretend to know why.
Yes, as a believer I do think that events can be altered by prayers, but not by our own power. Christians put our trust in the power of God. So really, if there was no God to pray to, we wouldn't put any stock in our prayers at all.
I understand all your points and even as a believer, prayer has sometimes confused me. But in my own life I've seen it work and that's why I believe.
 
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stevil

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A lot of prayer has to do with belief. God said to ask and you shall receive, knock and the door will be opened to you. But all of this has to be done with belief and faith that it'll happen. However, it is true that God doesn't answer every prayer exactly how we would like it to be answered. And we can't pretend to know why.
Yes, as a believer I do think that events can be altered by prayers, but not by our own power. Christians put our trust in the power of God. So really, if there was no God to pray to, we wouldn't put any stock in our prayers at all.
I understand all your points and even as a believer, prayer has sometimes confused me. But in my own life I've seen it work and that's why I believe.
Thanks very much for your response.
I don't want to debate you, or try to convince you that prayer doesn't work, but I do find the concept of prayer confusing, just want to try to understand from the perspective of a believer. My own thoughts are perhaps just straw on this topic.

The confusing things (for me) are this.
1. We find no statistical advantage for prayed for events.
Let's say the Christian god is the one. Shouldn't we find that Christians are statistically more likely to recover from things such as cancer?
2. Miraculous cures seem to be for things that could perhaps be cured on their own through the passage of time.
For example, we don't have amputees who grow back their limbs, no matter how much prayer is performed.
3. Why would an all knowing timeless god need people to request things of it?
If I see a person in danger, perhaps an infant crossing a busy road, I will look to intervene and help the kid out. I wouldn't need some random person to ask me to help the child.
 
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EpicScore

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What is a prayer? What does it mean to pray? What do we mean when we say that a prayer "works"? I suppose those questions need to be clarified before I can try to explain the value of prayer...

As noted in post #4, there's a pervasive misconception, even among believers, that prayers are some sort of quasi-magic for granting wishes or altering reality. The Bible never presents God as a cosmic genie who is obligated to bend over backwards to fulfill every prayer request, nor does it condone the act of prayer for such purpose.

Personally, my primary issue with the need for prayer is in Psalms 139:4, "Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether." Like, if God already knows what I'm going to say, what's the point of saying anything to Him at all?

Well, here's a couple of reasons...

God is a personal being. As with any form of personal relationships, communication is required to build and maintain the affections, and prayer is the means for such communion with God. Why do we talk to our loved ones? Certainly not to simply give them a to-do list they are to answer "yes" or "no" to?

Also, God is Lord. While He is good and loving, He is also sovereign over humans. He does not "owe" his subjects anything beyond what He has already given us. When Jesus taught His disciples on the model "Lord's prayer", very little of its content are requests for God to change our lives or do spectacular things for us. It starts with praise/exaltation, and ends with the exact same note. Along the way, it simply asks for basic providence, forgiveness of sins, and deliverance from temptation. In other words, prayer is a form of worship and a demonstration of our submission to God's sovereignty.

In a way, yes, prayer is mostly for the benefit of the believer(s). God doesn't need to hear prayers to increase in knowledge and wisdom, but it could grant such inspiration, comfort and guidance for the one who prays, or strengthen other people who hears it, in the case of intercessory prayer. But the psalmist did say, "Because your love is better than life, my lips will glorify you" (Psalms 63:3). For a Christian, the greatest treasure of life should not be in God's blessings but in having a restored relationship with God Himself. In other words, a prayer that is true would enable us enjoy a fulfilled life, even if God doesn't heal us of cancer or free us from debts and all sorts of afflictions (though He may chose to do so if He wills).

In response to some of your questions, I suppose there's also a matter of biased perception, and everyone tends to judge an outcome based on their existing presuppositions. For example, if a person fervently prays to get a job, and eventually gets it, he can wither choose to believe that: a) God has answered his prayer, or b) it's just a coincidence. Neither position can be empirically proven, so whether someone perceives the event as (a) or (b), it's pretty much a faith position.

Hope that helps.
 
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stevil

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What is a prayer? What does it mean to pray? What do we mean when we say that a prayer "works"? I suppose those questions need to be clarified before I can try to explain the value of prayer...
Yes, it's not quite clear what a prayer is.


As noted in post #4, there's a pervasive misconception, even among believers, that prayers are some sort of quasi-magic for granting wishes or altering reality. The Bible never presents God as a cosmic genie who is obligated to bend over backwards to fulfill every prayer request, nor does it condone the act of prayer for such purpose.
OK, so it's not like asking for a wish to come true.

Personally, my primary issue with the need for prayer is in Psalms 139:4, "Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether." Like, if God already knows what I'm going to say, what's the point of saying anything to Him at all?
Yes, agreed. If the god knows everything, you cannot tell the god anything it doesn't already know, even if it is merely an expression of your own feelings towards the god. The god cannot learn anything it doesn't already know, it cannot come into new knowledge. It can never be surprised, never be astonished, never see or hear anything that it didn't already know.


God is a personal being.
I'm unclear what is meant by this phrase.
Are you saying that god is an individual? Or are you saying that god has an existence which is unique to each believer?

As with any form of personal relationships, communication is required to build and maintain the affections, and prayer is the means for such communion with God.
Is it really a relationship when the communication is all one way?
How is this relationship any different to writing to your diary as if your diary was a best friend, or perhaps talking to your teddy bear or talking to an imaginary friend? Kinda like the castaway talking to his coconut friend Wilson.

Why do we talk to our loved ones? Certainly not to simply give them a to-do list they are to answer "yes" or "no" to?
That's right, we develop relationships with others and if they are merely a granter of wishes then we aren't having much of a relationship with them.

When Jesus taught His disciples on the model "Lord's prayer", very little of its content are requests for God to change our lives or do spectacular things for us. It starts with praise/exaltation, and ends with the exact same note. Along the way, it simply asks for basic providence, forgiveness of sins, and deliverance from temptation. In other words, prayer is a form of worship and a demonstration of our submission to God's sovereignty.
Does god need to have people worship it? I would think a perfect being has no such needs.
Does the believer need to have something to worship? Something to recognise as an authority, a need to be subservient to something? Does the believer gain value from being in a submissive and subservient position? Does prayer help them to achieve subservience? I suppose prayer helps give the impression of having a personal relationship with god and if performed in a certain way helps the believer think they are honoring it and putting their hand up to say "hey, i'm in your team 100%". Or something like that perhaps???
It's all about the person doing the worshipping, the god gets nothing out of it and probably doesn't intercede as a result.

In a way, yes, prayer is mostly for the benefit of the believer(s). God doesn't need to hear prayers to increase in knowledge and wisdom, but it could grant such inspiration, comfort and guidance for the one who prays, or strengthen other people who hears it, in the case of intercessory prayer.
Such as a person gains comfort, inspiration, strength from verbalising their situation and thoughts with a good friend, a good listener.
I think, often people look for permission or approval with regards to taking action or continuing with action. IF they verbalise to a friend and that friend doesn't tell them not to do something (or doesn't show disapproval) then they may feel inner strength or rejuvenation towards their own course of action. Perhaps prayer is somewhat like that. Talking to a great friend, a great listener that doesn't interrupt and doesn't make judgments other than the judgement one already holds on oneself. Prayer could be a way to organise your own thoughts (as you would need to when conveying those to a friend) and once organised, one can hear one's own thoughts in an organised and somewhat logical manner.

So the value of prayer could be introspection resulting in personal strength and rejuvenation or perhaps abandonment of a bad idea or being able to break away from mulling something over and over. Perhaps the god, takes the place of a good friend or even a psychiatrist who patiently listens and leads a person to set their own values and make their own decisions after having organised and considered their own thoughts?

In response to some of your questions, I suppose there's also a matter of biased perception, and everyone tends to judge an outcome based on their existing presuppositions. For example, if a person fervently prays to get a job, and eventually gets it, he can wither choose to believe that: a) God has answered his prayer, or b) it's just a coincidence. Neither position can be empirically proven, so whether someone perceives the event as (a) or (b), it's pretty much a faith position.
If there is an influence favouring a specific demographic. e.g. god favouring Christians getting the job over non Christians, then statistically we would be able to see that Christians are more likely to get the job. This would (somewhat) prove that the Christian god exists and gives Christians an advantage. It would somewhat be hard to prove, because perhaps the employer is Christian and gives favour to Christian candidates, or perhaps in some countries (e.g. India) the Christians go to Christian schools which happen to give better education. So you would need to adjust for other factors.
But if we could prove a particular god's existence and favour then wouldn't this take away the requirement of "Faith" for the Christian religion? If this is the case then wouldn't the Christian god's intervention be limited to things that aren't measurable, even statistically?
 
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EpicScore

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I'm unclear what is meant by this phrase.
Are you saying that god is an individual? Or are you saying that god has an existence which is unique to each believer?

What I mean by it, is that God is a sentient being, having a mind, will and emotions of His own. This is distinct from, say, the Buddhist view of Karma, which is an impersonal force of cause and effect that rewards good deeds with good and bad deeds with bad (which honestly seems a strange notion, since impersonal forces like natural laws can't discriminate between good and evil.)

Is it really a relationship when the communication is all one way?
How is this relationship any different to writing to your diary as if your diary was a best friend, or perhaps talking to your teddy bear or talking to an imaginary friend? Kinda like the castaway talking to his coconut friend Wilson.

Because people do get response? Some people see visions, some hear inner voices, some experience events that is directly related to the prayer. And if they're not sure whether or not those responses are actually from God, there's the Bible to verify the fact.

This isn't an either-or thing. Just because God isn't a wish-granting genie who is obligated to fulfill everything a prayer asks for, doesn't mean He never does.

Does god need to have people worship it? I would think a perfect being has no such needs.
Does the believer need to have something to worship? Something to recognise as an authority, a need to be subservient to something? Does the believer gain value from being in a submissive and subservient position? Does prayer help them to achieve subservience? I suppose prayer helps give the impression of having a personal relationship with god and if performed in a certain way helps the believer think they are honoring it and putting their hand up to say "hey, i'm in your team 100%". Or something like that perhaps???
It's all about the person doing the worshipping, the god gets nothing out of it and probably doesn't intercede as a result.

True. God is already perfect and doesn't benefit from people's worship. But "God is love" (1 John 4:8), and one of the most vital aspect of love is to "give". However, this "gift-love" can only be expressed in full when there are recipients who would need and appreciate them.

This could be glibly compared to a parent-child relationship. What does a parent gain from having children? Raising kids is tiresome and, in most cases, the expenses of feeding, clothing, entertaining and educating them would be far more than what they would be able to give back in return. Sure, one might argue that the kids can help take care of their parents when they're old and sick, but for most parents I know, that's not their sole, or even their main, intention of bearing children.

The word "worship" comes from "worth"-ship. I.e. the act of worship is an acknowledgement of one's worth. God, as revealed in the Bible, is the all-powerful, all-knowing, everlasting Creator and Provider of the universe. Thus, He is objectively transcendent to human beings and deserves worship.

How worship, by itself, benefits people might not be visible through a naturalistic point-of-view, but C.S. Lewis makes a good point about how human needs goes beyond basic survival and cost-benefit analysis: "Friendship is unnecessary, like philosophy, like art, like the universe itself. It has no survival value; rather it is one of those things which give value to survival." (The Four Loves)

Are we obliged to give worship? Well, if we accept God as creator and sustainer, then yes; because that would mean that everything we enjoy from life itself, no matter how small, and how little, is a gift from God for which He deserves praise and thanksgiving. And quoting again from Lewis: "I think we delight to praise what we enjoy because the praise not merely expresses but completes the enjoyment; it is its appointed consummation. It is not out of compliment that lovers keep on telling one another how beautiful they are; the delight is incomplete till it is expressed." (Reflections on the Psalms)

Such as a person gains comfort, inspiration, strength from verbalising their situation and thoughts with a good friend, a good listener.
I think, often people look for permission or approval with regards to taking action or continuing with action. IF they verbalise to a friend and that friend doesn't tell them not to do something (or doesn't show disapproval) then they may feel inner strength or rejuvenation towards their own course of action. Perhaps prayer is somewhat like that. Talking to a great friend, a great listener that doesn't interrupt and doesn't make judgments other than the judgement one already holds on oneself. Prayer could be a way to organise your own thoughts (as you would need to when conveying those to a friend) and once organised, one can hear one's own thoughts in an organised and somewhat logical manner.

So the value of prayer could be introspection resulting in personal strength and rejuvenation or perhaps abandonment of a bad idea or being able to break away from mulling something over and over. Perhaps the god, takes the place of a good friend or even a psychiatrist who patiently listens and leads a person to set their own values and make their own decisions after having organised and considered their own thoughts?

That's one way to look at it, I suppose. There's quite a number of research that states that religious believes are associated with better mental health and quality of life in general. One Psychology/Social Science article says that, "More deeply religious respondents were more likely to see friends, and they had better self-rated health, fewer depressive feelings, and were observed by the interviewer to find life more exciting compared with the less religious."

The study in question focuses on general religiosity, rather than any particular religion, and I'm not going to delve too deeply on Christian apologetics, since that doesn't seem to be the point of this thread. But in any case, belief systems do play a significant role in creating both individual and cultural values. Psychologically, people would be able to have a more positive outlook on life, particularly in difficult times, when they can see a good (God-directed, one might say) purpose for their sufferings beyond their own happiness/comfort/convenience/etc. And socially, it's less likely for people to compromise their values/conscience, if they believe that they're accountable for their actions to a higher power that is morally perfect.

If there is an influence favouring a specific demographic. e.g. god favouring Christians getting the job over non Christians, then statistically we would be able to see that Christians are more likely to get the job. This would (somewhat) prove that the Christian god exists and gives Christians an advantage. It would somewhat be hard to prove, because perhaps the employer is Christian and gives favour to Christian candidates, or perhaps in some countries (e.g. India) the Christians go to Christian schools which happen to give better education. So you would need to adjust for other factors.
But if we could prove a particular god's existence and favour then wouldn't this take away the requirement of "Faith" for the Christian religion? If this is the case then wouldn't the Christian god's intervention be limited to things that aren't measurable, even statistically?

I actually think it's the opposite. In a setting where Christians are generally favoured over non-Christians, then chances are the Christian can get the job even if he doesn't pray for it. Sure, there's a statistical data, but the correlation of "getting the job" is set against "calling yourself a Christian/having a Christian upbringing", and not "prayer". In fact, if a Christian managed get a job despite living in an environment that discriminate against the religion, I would argue that's actually a more visible evidence of God's answer to the prayer, and the "Faith" comes in from placing your hope and confidence is something that's improbable or even impossible (Hebrews 11:1).

A personal example: I applied for a visa to attend a discipleship program in Australia that starts in mid-October, less than 3 weeks after I submitted my application. According to the official Immigration site, 90% of the applications would take 80 days to process, and at best, it would take 50 days. I was quite sure that it wouldn't be able to come out on time, so yesterday I asked the school if I should withdraw from the course. They said they would pray for it, and the visa got approved last night.
 
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W2L

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From the outside (never theist), I find prayer to be a somewhat strange ritual and perhaps something that the believers aren't unified with their understanding of it.

Being godless and a materialist/skeptic, I gravitate towards empirical evidence. So if someone tells me that prayer works in a way where you can pray for something tangible (such as "recovery from sickness") then I start to get interested. OK, if god heals people as a result of prayer, then you ought to be able to measure this.
If prayer to a particular god works then we ought to get significant statistical differences with regards to sickness recovery.
We could do large studies, find out if there is a difference in occurrences of recoveries based on the subjects being the target of prayer to specific gods.
If you find prayer to one specific god giving a statistical advantage then you could go further into studying what aspects of prayer work best:
Amount of prayers given
Amount of people praying
Proximity of prayer to the subject
Whether the prayer prayed from a church, a mosque, a synagog etc,
Whether the prayer was from a top a high mountain or down low to the sea, or in a city.
Whether the prayer was spoken out loud or in one's head, or in private or in public as a group prayer.

But generally, as all religous claims tend to be, I would expect prayer to be something un-measurable. The consequence of it being unmeasurable, means that there is no advantage to praying for measurable things. So that means praying for a loved one to be cured of a sickness will not result in a cure.
So then, what could you pray for?

I liken it to talking to your stuffed teady bear or perhaps writing in a diary.
You could say thanks, you could reflect on things that have happened or reflect on your own feelings. The teady, diary and god are all really great listeners.
Its my opinion that this world is not the true reality. There is a place called eternity and heaven. This world/life is the metaphor and God is the reality. So is healing. Its my opinion that God promises spiritual healing but not necessarily physical healing. Gods healing miracles in the scriptures were signs of His coming and signs of those who followed Him. The real healing is spiritual while the signs were metaphoric..
 
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stevil

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Because people do get response? Some people see visions, some hear inner voices,
I've never experienced this myself, it's a hard thing for me to accept as intervention from an otherworldly being. No-one other than the individual experiences it. It is indistinguishable from the person's own imagination. People from all sorts of belief systems also have these experiences, it's not unique to Christians.


some experience events that is directly related to the prayer.
Could be just a coincidence, and interpreted through personal bias.
Would need to do a study, events prayed for vs events not prayed for and see if the prayed for ones are more likely to occur.

And if they're not sure whether or not those responses are actually from God, there's the Bible to verify the fact.
OK, not sure what is meant by this. Lets say it is something speaking to you in your mind, could it not be an alien or a demon or the devil or something masquerading as a god? Basically, how could you trust this foreign voice?

This isn't an either-or thing. Just because God isn't a wish-granting genie who is obligated to fulfill everything a prayer asks for, doesn't mean He never does.
What I am saying is that if the prayed for event is measurable then statistically we could see if there is an advantage. Perhaps the advantage is so small it doesn't come up in the statistics, perhaps less than a single percent? Or perhaps prayer doesn't work that way, perhaps the god gives inner strength but not physical things?
 
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stevil

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More deeply religious respondents were more likely to see friends, and they had better self-rated health, fewer depressive feelings, and were observed by the interviewer to find life more exciting compared with the less religious.
If this is true then perhaps that is the value of religious belief, perhaps a naturalistic, materialistic worldview is a bit cold and isolated than one where a Father figure is believed to be watching over you, caring for you, loving and guiding?
Perhaps an analogy can be made to that of a dependent child feeling the unconditional love and the safety net of their parents and once we move into adulthood (and independence) feeling that we no longer have that safety net and need to deal with the sometimes harshness of life on our own.

And socially, it's less likely for people to compromise their values/conscience, if they believe that they're accountable for their actions to a higher power that is morally perfect.
I'm not sure if there is truth to this. There was a study (a while back) that showed that atheists are less likely to end up in prison. But this was an isolated study, so not sure if we can take much from that either. I'm not convinced that being religious makes a person more law abiding.
I think being atheist allows a person to be less judgmental, I mean I certainly don't judge people to be sinners or immoral. But I think this is going off topic.


They said they would pray for it, and the visa got approved last night.
I see that there is a coincidence here, but approving visa's doesn't require divine intervention. It's not inconceivable that this wouldn't have been approved without the prayer.
 
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Well, I suppose we can agree to disagree here, as I have already pointed out that both views are biased either way. A person who is a believer is inclined to perceive that an answer to the prayer is a divine intervention, while the non-believer would prefer to see that exact same occurrence as a coincidence. As it stands, both views can't really be empirically proven and "coincidence" is not a measurable data-point.

Skeptics have long tried to rationalize Old Testament miracles such as the parting of the Red Sea or the destruction of the Walls of Jericho using scientific evidences to disprove miracles or the supernatural, but believers would maintain that the fact that God is able to use natural laws to achieve His purpose wouldn't discount His involvement considering that He is the one who created those natural order to begin with. The Christian view of God is that He is both trancendent and immanent to the universe, which means that He does not always have to use spectacular displays of power, but could also use mundane means to achieve certain purposes.

The most prominent example of this is perhaps the Book of Esther, whose canonicity has been disputed by some Christian scholars due to its lack of explicit mention of God. The story is about a young, beautiful Jewish woman (the titular Esther) who married the king of Persia and was crowned queen. She later uses her position to deliver the Jews from the "racial cleansing" plot instigated by Hamman. Though God's presence is not visible, as it is in the other OT books, the account of the story makes it clear that His purposeful providence is what gave way to Esther's rise as queen and her eventual role as the saviour of her people, as Mordecai states to drive Esther into taking action, "If you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance for the Jews will arise from another place, but you and your father’s family will perish. And who knows but that you have come to your royal position for such a time as this?" (Esther 4:14)

It is worth noting that before Esther did anything to try to help the people, she commanded a three day fast, which is primarily meant to show a dependence to the divine or a plea for divine intervention, and is typically practiced in accompaniment for intercessory prayer. The subsequent events is really mundane, and probably something one could reasonably expect to happen without the prayer. But the writing takes it for granted that Esther's eventual success was due to God, and there is any evidence that the same outcome would happen had Esther not prayed is speculative at best.

You ask for statistical evidence, but not only is the accurate data almost impossible to collect (due to the presuppositional bias I mentioned above), the sort of evidence you ask for doesn't align to what most evangelical Christians believe about the meaning and purpose of prayer. Saying that the effectiveness of prayer can only be proven if the content of the prayer gets fulfilled goes against what has already been said in previous posts about God not being obligated to say "yes" to every prayer request. He could say "no" if He decides that what is asked for isn't good for the person in the long run, or deliberately withhold the "yes" due to the request being made in a beligerent/disrespectful/begrudging manner (my parents often does that--they'd say "no" in response to a bad attitude but are perfectly willing to say "yes" once I say it nicely). In terms of result, I suppose the quality of a fellowship between family/friends/loved ones would depend more on how much the relationship is deepened and/or strengthened through the activity, and less about the quality of the entertainment, food, etc. the party had during their time together.

I mentioned the Bible because I think the perception of prayer have been coloured by name-it-and-claim-it, health/wealth gospel preacher who says that as long as you believe it hard enough, God would grant whatever you desire, that your life would be easy, etc. even though the principles of the Scriptures teaches no such thing. Indeed, most orthodox Christians, and the Bible itself, would condemn people who, for their own benefits, twist the Biblical passages to tell people what they might prefer to hear and proclaim a message that the Scriptures itself never intended to teach, as heretical or even satanic, even though they may be known to the rest of the world as Christians. What I'm saying is that trying to map external phenomenon into fixed statistics is essentially meaningless because God is more concerned with the heart (1 Chronicles 28:9, Proverbs 16:2, Jeremiah 17:10), but I digress.

All in all, prayer is inseparable from a belief in God, or deities, to which the prayer is offered. One's perception of prayer is fundamentally rooted in how one views and relates to God. Is "God" a man-made figment of imagination whose purpose is to serve man's desires, or are man God-created beings made to "glorify God and enjoy Him forever"?

Perhaps my lengthy posts will not satisfy all the questions you have about prayer life and God in general, but I hope it has given you some additional perspective towards those topics. I do apologise if I may have made insensitive, ignorant or offensive remarks throughout this discussion.
 
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FreeinChrist

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This thread was moved to Exploring Christianity from The Kitchen Sink.
The Kitchen Sink Forum Statement of Purpose includes:

. No topics about the theology of any religion are allowed in this forum. Theological topics must be started in their appropriate forums.

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Sketcher

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But generally, as all religous claims tend to be, I would expect prayer to be something un-measurable. The consequence of it being unmeasurable, means that there is no advantage to praying for measurable things. So that means praying for a loved one to be cured of a sickness will not result in a cure.
So then, what could you pray for?

I liken it to talking to your stuffed teady bear or perhaps writing in a diary.
You could say thanks, you could reflect on things that have happened or reflect on your own feelings. The teady, diary and god are all really great listeners.
Not all of reality fits inside that neat little box you are thinking in. It doesn't have to be measurable to have it benefit that on Earth which is measurable. It's also not only about that, but also about drawing closer to the heart of God yourself.
 
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seashale76

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From the outside (never theist), I find prayer to be a somewhat strange ritual and perhaps something that the believers aren't unified with their understanding of it.

Being godless and a materialist/skeptic, I gravitate towards empirical evidence. So if someone tells me that prayer works in a way where you can pray for something tangible (such as "recovery from sickness") then I start to get interested. OK, if god heals people as a result of prayer, then you ought to be able to measure this.
If prayer to a particular god works then we ought to get significant statistical differences with regards to sickness recovery.
We could do large studies, find out if there is a difference in occurrences of recoveries based on the subjects being the target of prayer to specific gods.
If you find prayer to one specific god giving a statistical advantage then you could go further into studying what aspects of prayer work best:
Amount of prayers given
Amount of people praying
Proximity of prayer to the subject
Whether the prayer prayed from a church, a mosque, a synagog etc,
Whether the prayer was from a top a high mountain or down low to the sea, or in a city.
Whether the prayer was spoken out loud or in one's head, or in private or in public as a group prayer.

But generally, as all religous claims tend to be, I would expect prayer to be something un-measurable. The consequence of it being unmeasurable, means that there is no advantage to praying for measurable things. So that means praying for a loved one to be cured of a sickness will not result in a cure.
So then, what could you pray for?

I liken it to talking to your stuffed teady bear or perhaps writing in a diary.
You could say thanks, you could reflect on things that have happened or reflect on your own feelings. The teady, diary and god are all really great listeners.
Prayer has been called 'the breath of the soul'. Prayer is an act of spiritual communion with and glorification of God- and when we do so- we are also united with all of the spiritual world. Prayer encompasses praise, thanksgiving, and petition. It is supposed to be the goal of a Christian to learn to pray without ceasing (as per I Thess. 5:17). This is literally learning to be with God in your thoughts- where one unites their mind with their heart. In effect, it is a constant acknowledgment of God's presence. The effect of prayer is the Holy Spirit strengthening our faith, hope, love, consoles us, empowers us to do good works- and essentially gives us everything that is truly good for us. Prayer is NOT just about petitioning God for things like healing. One that has achieved true prayer of the heart will be saved.
 
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faroukfarouk

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Hi; the question arises, To Whom are you speaking in prayer?

A related question is, Has the One to Whom you are speaking Himself spoken?

Christians assert that this has happened through the Word, the written form of which is the Bible and living and eternal form of which is God's beloved Son, the Saviour.
 
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From the outside (never theist), I find prayer to be a somewhat strange ritual and perhaps something that the believers aren't unified with their understanding of it.

Being godless and a materialist/skeptic, I gravitate towards empirical evidence. So if someone tells me that prayer works in a way where you can pray for something tangible (such as "recovery from sickness") then I start to get interested. OK, if god heals people as a result of prayer, then you ought to be able to measure this.
If prayer to a particular god works then we ought to get significant statistical differences with regards to sickness recovery.
We could do large studies, find out if there is a difference in occurrences of recoveries based on the subjects being the target of prayer to specific gods.
If you find prayer to one specific god giving a statistical advantage then you could go further into studying what aspects of prayer work best:
Amount of prayers given
Amount of people praying
Proximity of prayer to the subject
Whether the prayer prayed from a church, a mosque, a synagog etc,
Whether the prayer was from a top a high mountain or down low to the sea, or in a city.
Whether the prayer was spoken out loud or in one's head, or in private or in public as a group prayer.

But generally, as all religous claims tend to be, I would expect prayer to be something un-measurable. The consequence of it being unmeasurable, means that there is no advantage to praying for measurable things. So that means praying for a loved one to be cured of a sickness will not result in a cure.
So then, what could you pray for?

I liken it to talking to your stuffed teady bear or perhaps writing in a diary.
You could say thanks, you could reflect on things that have happened or reflect on your own feelings. The teady, diary and god are all really great listeners.

Prayer is about far more than just asking for things, but rather it is about communicating with God and growing in a personal relationship with Him, and it certainly is not about treating God as if he were an impersonal vending machine that will give the right output every time we enter in the right input. It would be like a child treating their parents like the only purpose they had was to buy them toys and doing tests to see which manner of begging for a toy would consistently lead to which results. If you want to dismiss all miracle claims, then be aware that you are dismissing hundreds of millions of miracle claims without even looking at them, some of which are medically documented.
 
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faroukfarouk

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Prayer has been called 'the breath of the soul'. Prayer is an act of spiritual communion with and glorification of God- and when we do so- we are also united with all of the spiritual world. Prayer encompasses praise, thanksgiving, and petition. It is supposed to be the goal of a Christian to learn to pray without ceasing (as per I Thess. 5:17). This is literally learning to be with God in your thoughts- where one unites their mind with their heart. In effect, it is a constant acknowledgment of God's presence. The effect of prayer is the Holy Spirit strengthening our faith, hope, love, consoles us, empowers us to do good works- and essentially gives us everything that is truly good for us. Prayer is NOT just about petitioning God for things like healing. One that has achieved true prayer of the heart will be saved.
1 Thess 5.17 is a great verse! and prayer there is linked with joy and thanksgiving. :)
 
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