Was Jesus the God of the Old Testament?

Dartman said:

Utterly impossible.
Jehovah/YHVH God authorizes us to use reality as a test of truth, and the convoluted, contradictory reasoning that both Jesus and his God are Jehovah is a perfect example of the impossibility of the trinity.

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iwbswiaihl said:

Just the first and there are more, that comes to mind is the transfiguration, God the Father said this is my Son listen to Him. Matt 17:5-6 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!” 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces and were greatly afraid.

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klutedavid said:

Hello Dartman.

John 17:5
Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

They both shared the same glory before the world even existed.

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klutedavid said:

Hello Dartman.

John 5:37
And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

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Dartman said:

The desperate attempt to distort John 8:58 into a "claim" that Jesus is Jehovah underscores the utter lack of ANYTHING remotely supporting trinity.
The Greek prepositional phrase ego emi doesn't compare to the Greek translation of Ex 3:14 in the LXX... where those Hebrew translators rendered it "O On".

It is BLATANTLY obvious the Jews were wrong in John 8, and it is stunningly significant that trinitarians are reliant on their ERROR for support!!

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Dartman said:

Not even CLOSE to a claim that no man has heard the Father, except Jesus.
Jehovah spoke directly to Israel, and they were terrified. They BEGGED Jehovah to speak to Moses, and let Moses then speak to them, which Jehovah agreed to do.

THEN, Jehovah told Moses;
Deut 18:17-19 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him.

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Dartman said:

Yep, this is the 2nd option. THOSE people standing with Jesus, had neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.
Israel did both.
So did Adam and Eve.
So did Moses.

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Dartman said:

Utterly impossible.
Jehovah/YHVH God authorizes us to use reality as a test of truth, and the convoluted, contradictory reasoning that both Jesus and his God are Jehovah is a perfect example of the impossibility of the trinity.

Click to expand...

Dartman said:

No, The Father's foreknowledge of Jesus was glorious.
The Father alone is God,
John 17:3
And this is Eternal Life, that they might know THEE the ONLY true God, and Jesus Christ whom THOU hast sent.

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Dartman said:

Utterly impossible.
Jehovah/YHVH God authorizes us to use reality as a test of truth, and the convoluted, contradictory reasoning that both Jesus and his God are Jehovah is a perfect example of the impossibility of the trinity.

Click to expand...

Dartman said:

Not even CLOSE to a claim that no man has heard the Father, except Jesus.
Jehovah spoke directly to Israel, and they were terrified. They BEGGED Jehovah to speak to Moses, and let Moses then speak to them, which Jehovah agreed to do.

THEN, Jehovah told Moses;
Deut 18:17-19 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him.

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klutedavid said:

Hello Dartman.

When the Word became flesh (Jesus), then it is true that the Word was sent. Yet the Word is God!

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RaymondG said:

Why is it assumed that the word becoming flesh is referring to the birth of Jesus?

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Living Soul said:

Respectfully, one question I've always had about the Holy Trinity is, why did God use anger, war, and violence to solve problems in the OT and then use love, compassion, and healing in the NT to solve problems?

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Linked article said:

There was death and destruction everywhere, all orchestrated and carried out by God. Who could believe in a God like this? Who could believe in a God who orders his people to destroy the inhabitants of Canaan, making certain that everyone is dead, just to make way for God’s people? The problem with most media representations of the biblical story is that they are so literal. In the effort to get the details of the story right, the storyteller misses the point. Over the years, most of us come to an accommodation with biblical texts that stretch the imagination—particularly those texts that portray God as vengeful, angry and murderous. We parse the Red Sea story as a myth, a story that reveals an important truth about God and human beings. Maybe the Red Sea was a swamp; maybe the pursuing Egyptian chariots became mired in the mud; maybe the people of God told the story of their ancestors’ unlikely escape from Egypt and added details with each retelling. But for most of us the point is not the story; the point is the gracious providence of God, which operates in history as hope and justice and love.

Richard Rohr, a Franciscan priest who directs the Center for Action and Contemplation in Albuquerque, New Mexico offers a working hermeneutic for interpreting scripture. In regard to any text, Rohr proposes: “If you see God operating at a lesser level than the best person you know, then the text is not authentic revelation.” If God is love (1 John 4:16), then no person could be more loving than God, Rohr says. “God is never less loving than the most loving person you know.” Most of us, like Rohr, do not believe, cannot believe, that God told the Hebrew people to kill everyone who got in their way. No doubt the Hebrews did commit horrible acts; history is full of such stories. But the voice they heard wasn’t God’s voice. It’s a sad reality that many continue to believe that God orchestrates death, destruction and human suffering and orders people to kill. That, in my mind, is a gross and harmful distortion. (From “The Christian Century”, April 17, 2013) Belief in an infallible Bible leaves us stuck with a violent God, which can instill fear that’s carried through life like a mild depression, only to become worse when facing death and the thought of appearing before this vengeful God. However, this can be avoided when we understand the Bible to be inspired but not infallible, and written by humans from a different culture who had an agenda. In the case of the genocide mentioned above, the author was concerned about Jewish people interbreeding with the Amalekites. In their time and culture, keeping the Jewish blood line pure was very important, so the Jewish author put this tragic command on the lips of God. The idea that the Bible is infallible is a new phenomenon. It’s a product of the scientific revolution that began in the 16th century where truth was equated with factuality, i.e. that which is true is that which can be scientifically verified. This put into doubt the stories of the Bible. And what we now refer to as “fundamentalism” arose out of the scientific revolution. It is helpful to understand.~
http://www.leavingthepriesthood.com/August_2013_Violent_God.pdf

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iwbswiaihl said:

Sorry, I misread your words, I thought you were saying to show a verse where the Father spoke. That is why I showed that verse. Someone has said before, when you lay an egg, step back and admire it and move on, I move on.

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klutedavid said:

Hello Dartman.

Read the text again.

'neither heard His voice at any time'

The text means what it says, there is no revelation of the Father in the scripture!

No one has seen the Father, no one has ever heard the Father, no one knows the Father!

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Phantasman said:

The OT was a time of Angels, not Christ. And Christ wasn't Christ until the chrism (by John).

Jesus wasn't Jesus until the immaculate conception.

The son of the living God was not the God of the Jews.

1 Samuel:
19 And he smote of the men of Beth Shemesh, because they b]">[b]had looked in the Ark of the Lord: he slew even among the people fifty thousand men and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the Lord had slain the people with so great a slaughter.

Jesus kingdom (kingdom of God) is not of this Earth. So I am not going to blame him for murdering. Jesus told the Jews that their Father (capital F) was a "liar and murderer" from the beginning. Jesus was the truth the Jews didn't have. Orthodoxy teaches of YHWH, Jehovah and others. The Gospel doesn't. It is the "grace" and "truth" of love, not fear.

Matthew:
31 And concerning the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read what is spoken unto you of God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
33 And when the multitude heard it, they were astonied at his doctrine.

The resurrection of the dead (Jews who lived) were saved by Christ at the crucifixion.

Matthew:
51 a]">[a]And behold, the b]">[b]veil of the Temple was rent in twain, from the top to the bottom, and the earth did quake, and the stones were cloven.
52 And the c]">[c]graves did open themselves, and many bodies of the Saints, which slept, arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The Jews God saved no one. The living God saved them through their faith. Isaiah was as close to the true God as it got back then.

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Living Soul said:

Respectfully, one question I've always had about the Holy Trinity is, why did God use anger, war, and violence to solve problems in the OT and then use love, compassion, and healing in the NT to solve problems?

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klutedavid said:

Hello RaymondG.

Can you explain your question in more depth?

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RaymondG said:

Now that makes things perfectly clear....

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