Was Jesus the God of the Old Testament?

Phantasman · Sep 27, 2017

Saved.By.Grace said:
You are mistaken is saying "tempted", the Hebrew is "tested", which is a big difference! So the Hebrew lexicon of Brown, Driver and Briggs, "God tests or proves Abraham"

Again. The word test isn't referred to in the Gospel. The Father doesn't test anyone. Jesus said those who followed the Hebrew fathers died. And that his teachings were life, the only way to life.

I'll follow the latter.

Ron Gurley · Sep 27, 2017

OP: Q: " Was Jesus (God the Son) (of the NT identical to / same as) the (YHWH) God (God the Father) of the OT? (and/or God the Holy Spirit) ? ".

A: No. Your theological theory based on no "clearly on point" Scripture is FALSE.
It is contrary to the TRUE doctrine of the TRI-UNE GOD!

These are the NAMES/TITLES of "GOD" mainly in the OT of the Bible which reflect His "meaning" and nature and essence and character and attributes

A. Jehovah = ~YHWH = ~" I AM WHO I AM " = ~LORD (all caps) = ~GOD = Self Existent
(e.g. Exodus 3:14; John 8:58; Hebrews 1:8)
B. Elohim = plural name: majestic and strong = (e.g. Genesis 1:26...Then God said, "Let US make man in OUR image, in OUR likeness..."
C. Adonai = ~LORD (all caps) = ~Master = (e.g. Gen 2:4 ...the LORD God made the earth and the heavens; John 13:13 "You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am.
Matthew 22:44 " 'The LORD said to my Lord: " Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet."
D. "El" = ~GOD = Compound names, showing characteristics
1. El Elyon = most high = strongest
2. El Roi = strong see-er
3. El Shaddai = Almighty God
4. El Olam = Everlasting God

E. "Jehovah (J.) " = ~GOD = Compound names, showing characteristics
1. J. Jireh = LORD will provide
2. J. Nissi = LORD my banner
3. J. Shalom = LORD is peace
4. J. Sabbaoth = LORD of hosts
5. J. Maccaddeshcem = LORD your sanctifier
6. J. Raah = LORD my shepherd
7. J. Tsidkenu = LORD our righteousness
8. J. El Gmolah = LORD GOD of recompense
9. J. Nakeh = LORD who smites
10. J. Shammah = LORD who is present

Here is "GOD" of the Bible and spirit-led writings
which reflect His "meaning" and nature and SPIRITUAL essence and character and attributes.
1. Existent (Spirit Being)
2. Unified (not in different parts)
3. Simple...Holy...Righteous...perfectly Good...pure
4. Infinite (no Beginning, no End)
5. Eternal (beyond limits of time and space)
6. Unchanging and unchangeable CHARACTER (immutable)
7. All Present (spiritually everywhere and available)...omnipresent
8. All Sovereign (rules over/in complete control of {as He directs all things vs. all}
9. All Knowing (Omniscience...perfect wisdom)
10.All powerful (Omnipotence...God Almighty)
11.Perfectly JUST (fairness in His JUDGMENT of ALL SPIRITS)
12.Perfectly LOVING / Merciful (God IS Love; undeserved help for the afflicted)
13.Perfectly TRUE / Truthful (always truth-telling, inerrant)
14.Perfectly FREE (from sin and unrestricted power
15.Perfectly Separate (to mark off from others by boundaries)

Jesus and "the Father) (pater/theos) are not "named" in the OT, ONLY in the NT.
Many see fore-shadowings and "types" of Jesus, but the Divine Person of the Christ, the Messiah, TRUE MAN...TRUE DEITY... was not revealed until His miraculous birth in Bethlehem as prophesied.

By spiritually discerning Scripture, three Spiritual Persons...a TRI-UNE GOD... were revealed and clarified.
A. Each had different NAMES, titles, roles, ranks, functions, missions, etc.
B. Yet there was ONE "GOD" unified in spiritual essence, nature, and pre-existence...the GODHEAD!

They became known by the early "church" fathers and through spirit-led revelation as:
1. God the Father: associated with NAMES, Creative Father, Loving Father, "our Father"
2. God the Holy Spirit: named the Spirit of Truth, empowering and dwelling with the spirit of Man
3. God the Son: Jesus of Nazareth, Divine Messiah, THE Christ, Son of God, Son of Man, ETC
with a DUAL NATURE:
a.. True perfect and sinless Man / New Adam...unique and epitome of Man
b. True Diety sent down from the heavenly realms to save Man

Mattthew 3: 16-17: The Beginning of Jesus' Ministry
As soon as Jesus (God the Son) was baptized (symbolic of washing away sins),
he went up out of the water.
At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God (God the Holy Spirit)
descending like (in the form of) a dove and lighting on him.
And a voice (God the Father) from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

John 15:26 (NIV)...a new promise by Jesus...a snapshot of the TRI-UNE God
"When the Counselor (God the Holy Spirit) comes,
whom I (God the Son/Jesus) will send to you from the Father (God the Father),
the Spirit of TRUTH (God the Holy Spirit) who goes out from the Father (God the Father),
he (the Spirit of TRUTH) will testify (to the spirit of Man) about me. (God the Son/Jesus)

Matthew 28: 18 - The End of the Ministry - Post Resurrection and Pre-Ascension... The Great Commisssion: NOTE: the order!
Then Jesus came to them (11 disciples) and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore
a. go and
b. make disciples of all nations, (convert to believers)
c. baptizing them (saved believers) in the name
of (God) the Father and
of (God) the Son and
of (God) the Holy Spirit,
and d. teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

Colossians 2 :8-9;
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

Colossians 1 :15-19
For God was pleased to have all his fullness (of the Deity) dwell in Him,
and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven,
by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross

Phillipians 2...The Kenosis... Diety poured out into perfect flesh without loss or change in Deity

Romans 15:30 (NIV)...in prayer
I urge you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ (God the Son/Jesus)
and by the love of the Spirit (God the Holy Spirit), to join me in my struggle
by praying to God (God the Father) for me.

2 Corinthians 13:14 (NIV)...in goodbyes
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ (God the Son/Jesus) ,
and the love of God (God the Father),
and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit (God the Holy Spirit) be with you all.

NEXT: The NAMES / TITLES / CHARACTER of Jesus the God-MAN !!

Neostarwcc · Sep 27, 2017

Dartman said:
The problem is there are at least 3 meanings for "see the Father".
The MOST restrictive is the definition Jehovah Himself gives.
Ex 33:17 And Jehovah said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken; for thou hast found favor in My sight, and I know thee by name. 18 And He said, Show me, I pray thee, thy glory. 19 And He said, I will make all My goodness pass before thee, and will proclaim the name of Jehovah before thee; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. 20 And He said, Thou canst not see My face; for man shall not see Me and live. 21 And Jehovah said, Behold, there is a place by Me, and thou shalt stand upon the rock: 22 and it shall come to pass, while My glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a cleft of the rock, and will cover thee with My hand until I have passed by: 23 and I will take away My hand, and thou shalt see My back; but My face shall not be seen.
So, we learn a number of things here!
1) Jehovah Himself defines "see Me" = "see My face" (So, a VERY valid meaning of "no man has seen God" is, no one has seen HIS FACE)
2) Jehovah Himself states seeing HIS FACE will kill men. So, NO MORTAL MAN has seen Jehovah's face... therefore Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah, since thousands saw Jesus' face.

You did NOT explain the proof that Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah, since Jehovah IS the source of Jesus' words. Please explain this.

But, Jesus did claim that he was Jehovah. In John 8:58 he said "Before Abraham was born, I am". The Jews in John Chapter 8 knew exactly what Jesus was claiming to be, that's why they wanted to stone him to death. Jesus was claiming to be the God of the Old Testament. You're right no man has or can see the Father's face. The Father IS Jehovah like I've stated before. But, Jesus is also Jehovah. I did explain how Jesus is also Jehovah. Jesus is also Jehovah because of the scriptural evidence I presented in the OP. The Father and Jesus are one (John 10:30).

iwbswiaihl2 · Sep 27, 2017

Phantasman said:
The Father doesn't test nor tempt.QUOTE}

Then explain the passage that I posted from Deut 8:2-3. Most translations do use the word test, whereas the KJ uses the phrase "to prove you", to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no. There is no difference in what happened or why God allowed it. Even the word prove in the Strong's concordance #5254, uses the phrase "to test" ; by impl. to attempt--adventure, assay, prove, tempt, try. Tell me the difference if you please. Thanks

In the case of Job, did God allow it? And did it prove what was in the heart of Job?

Ron Gurley · Sep 27, 2017

The NAMES / TITLES / CHARACTER / POWERS of Jesus The Christ in the NT are vastly different than God the Farther and/or God the Holy Spirit of the Bible:

The historical and miraculous...Jesus of Nazareth,
"Y'shua ha Maschiach",
the Divine Messiah,
the Christ,
Son of God,
Son of Man,
LORD, Master, Savior, Immanuel
KING of Kings, LORD of Lords
Lamb of God
THE Only Begotten (not made) Son
The Good Shepherd
The Bread of Life
The Light of the World
The Narrow Gate
The Resurrection and the Life
The Way + TRUTH + Life
Alpha and Omega
Wonderful counselor
Mighty God
Everlasting Father
Prince of Peace
Root and offspring of David
King of Israel
King of the Jews
True Vine
The Word (logos)
Alpha and Omega
The bright morning star
etc...and OTHER "I am's" and NAMES and TITLES

He is a separate spiritual Person of the spiritually united GODHEAD!

Matthew 1:1[ The Genealogy of Jesus the Messiah ] ...Dual Nature = Man + Deity
The record of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham:
(AND the only begotten {not made} Son, Son of God + Son of Man)
(..The one in whom I spiritually BELIEVE + FOLLOW)

SING:

Jesus, Jesus, Jesus.
There's just something about that Name.
Master, Saviour, Jesus,
Like the fragrance after the rain.
Jesus, Jesus, Jesus,
Let all heaven and earth proclaim.
Kings and kingdoms will all pass away.
But there's something aboutthat Name!

Ron Gurley · Sep 27, 2017

Jesus claimed and proved that He was Deity/Devine. He never claimed and proved that He was God the Father / pater / theos. BIG DIFFERENCE!
And in identity, the Son always acknowledged that the Father was higher in RANK and different
ROLES.

Phantasman · Sep 27, 2017

The explanation comes from Christ. Moses did NOT get his bread from heaven. Read Acts 7 and how Stephen (full of the Holy Spirit) said Moses listened to Angels, not the Father nor the son. And was stoned to death, seeing both.

Let the Gospel show you who to folllow:
1 And a]">[a]b]">[b]after six days, Jesus took Peter and James, and John his brother, and brought them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was c]">[c]transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the Sun, and his clothes were as white as the light.
3 And behold, there appeared unto them Moses, and Elijah, talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud shadowed them: and behold, there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is d]">[d]that my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: hear him.
6 And when the disciples heard that, they e]">[e]fell on their faces, and were sore afraid.
7 Then Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
8 And when they lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

Out of the three, the Father told them who to listen to and follow.

Only the son saves. Orthodoxy has you buffaloed. If the Gentiles didn't need the OT to be Christian saints, neither do you.

Baby Cottontail · Sep 27, 2017

Dartman said:
None of these verses make the statement you claim.

They state God's word is Him, and was with Him. It does NOT say "Jesus is the Father".

The verses state the Father SENT Jesus, SPOKE to Jesus, was SEEN by Jesus. Those statements prove Jesus is NOT the Father.

Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah. Jesus, in fact, states this CLEARLY, declaring that his Father is "the ONLY true God";
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent

Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah, since Jehovah stated clearly that HE would be the source of Jesus' words, and Jesus stated clearly that his Father is the source of his words.. and doubles the proof by saying "they are NOT MY words" (John 14:24).
Deut 18:17 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
John 12:49,50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Clearly, the Father is Jehovah, Jesus is not!

This is also proven in MANY other texts!
For example;
Isa 42:1-8 Behold, My servant, whom I uphold; My chosen, in whom My soul delighteth: I have put My Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. 2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth. 4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.

5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; He that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house. 8 I am Jehovah, that is My name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither My praise unto graven images.

Jesus is Jehovah's servant, Jehovah's chosen, the one who received Jehovah's spirit, and was promised to the Gentiles. Jehovah is the creator, Jesus is His servant.

No one in this thread has stated that Jesus is the Father.

We are saying that Jesus is YHWH/Jehovah, just as the Father is.

klutedavid · Sep 27, 2017

Living Soul said:
Respectfully, one question I've always had about the Holy Trinity is, why did God use anger, war, and violence to solve problems in the OT and then use love, compassion, and healing in the NT to solve problems?

Hello Living Soul.

The New Testament has love, compassion and healing, yes, but the N.T also has war.

We are in a battle in the N.T, both the inner conflict within, and the battle against spiritual forces of darkness. We are called soldiers of Christ by Paul.

When Jesus returns, He returns with powerful angels and unleashes the fiery judgement.
We are to be a peaceful people in Christ, yet we are also engaged in territorial conquest.

RaymondG · Sep 27, 2017

Baby Cottontail said:
No one in this thread has stated that Jesus is the Father.

We are saying that Jesus is YHWH/Jehovah, just as the Father is.

Now that makes things perfectly clear.... :scratch:

Saved.By.Grace · Sep 27, 2017

Phantasman said:
The Father doesn't test nor tempt.

The word test isn't even in the NT. Was Job tested? Not by the Father.

The original language of the Holy Bible is not English, but Hebrew in the Old Testament, and Greek in the New Testament. The Hebrew word "nasah" is translated in the English by both "tempt" and "test", or "prove", as does the Greek "peirazo". Its meaning and usage must be determined from the context and other uses in the Bible. In Deuteronomy 8:2, the King James Version reads: "And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no". Where the word "prove" is from the Hebrew "nasah". It is evident that it is God that is the author of these "tests". God can never solicit any person to commit a sinful act, as this is against His Holy Nature. But the Bible has many examples where He does, either directly, or, in the case of the evil spirit and King Ahab, and the devil and Job, indirectly, by "allowing" certain actions.

Saved.By.Grace · Sep 27, 2017

Phantasman said:
Again. The word test isn't referred to in the Gospel. The Father doesn't test anyone. Jesus said those who followed the Hebrew fathers died. And that his teachings were life, the only way to life.

I'll follow the latter.

The Bible very clearly says that God does "test" us, read Deuteronomy chapter 8, for example, and you will see in verse 2, where God is said "to prove" (that is "test"), the children of Israel. This is exactly the case with Abraham when he was asked to sacrifice his only son, Isaac, where in Genesis 22:1, the same Hebrew word, "nasah", is used, that is used in Deuteronomy. The meaning again being "to put to the test".

Saved.By.Grace · Sep 27, 2017

Phantasman said:
The explanation comes from Christ. Moses did NOT get his bread from heaven. Read Acts 7 and how Stephen (full of the Holy Spirit) said Moses listened to Angels, not the Father nor the son. And was stoned to death, seeing both.

Let the Gospel show you who to folllow:
1 And a]">[a]b]">[b]after six days, Jesus took Peter and James, and John his brother, and brought them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was c]">[c]transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the Sun, and his clothes were as white as the light.
3 And behold, there appeared unto them Moses, and Elijah, talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud shadowed them: and behold, there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is d]">[d]that my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: hear him.
6 And when the disciples heard that, they e]">[e]fell on their faces, and were sore afraid.
7 Then Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
8 And when they lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

Out of the three, the Father told them who to listen to and follow.

Only the son saves. Orthodoxy has you buffaloed. If the Gentiles didn't need the OT to be Christian saints, neither do you.

And your argument being what?

Saved.By.Grace · Sep 27, 2017

Ron Gurley said:
Jesus claimed and proved that He was Deity/Devine. He never claimed and proved that He was God the Father / pater / theos. BIG DIFFERENCE!
And in identity, the Son always acknowledged that the Father was higher in RANK and different
ROLES.

No where in the New Testament is the Greek "theios", used for Jesus Christ, which means "divine". He is either called "theos" (God), "ho theos" (the God), or "theotes" (Deity), of "kurios", (Lord or Yahweh). Jesus is Almighty God, as are the Father and Holy Spirit, and not a "divine being", like the angels are.

Francis Drake · Sep 27, 2017

Living Soul said:
Respectfully, one question I've always had about the Holy Trinity is, why did God use anger, war, and violence to solve problems in the OT and then use love, compassion, and healing in the NT to solve problems?

As a new believer back in the 70s, I was certainly told that the Old Testament was about law -with God's wrath for failure, while forgiving grace apparently didn't appear till the NT and Jesus!
ie. God the Father in the Old, with God the Son in the New. (Apparently correcting his Father's mistakes as someone stated in another forum!)
It was some time before I realised it was completely false.

In fact, from Genesis all the way to Revelation, both grace and law run on parallel tracks next to each other. Which track we walk on, and which we are judged by, depends entirely on us.

Here's the general Christian perspective.-
1Peter5v5Likewise, ..............for God resists the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
And.-
James4v6........it says, “GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE.”
ie. Grace belongs in the NT.
But, despite James telling us that its a quote, (from the book of Proverbs), few Christians register grace in the OT when they read it.-
Proverbs3v34Though God scoffs at scoffers, he gives grace to the humble.
If all you look for in the OT is law and wrath, then that's all you will see!

The reality of the Old Testament is that the saints there knew just as much love and grace as do we today, and from the same God who gave it to us!
Here is David in Psalm32. As they say, "Read this and weep"

1How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,
Whose sin is covered!

2How blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity,
And in whose spirit there is no deceit!

3When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away
Through my groaning all day long.

4For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me;
My vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer.

Selah.
5I acknowledged my sin to You,
And my iniquity I did not hide;
I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the LORD”;
And You forgave the guilt of my sin.

Selah.
6Therefore, let everyone who is godly pray to You in a time when You may be found;
Surely in a flood of great waters they will not reach him.

7You are my hiding place; You preserve me from trouble;
You surround me with songs of deliverance.

Selah.
8I will instruct you and teach you in the way which you should go;
I will counsel you with My eye upon you.

9Do not be as the horse or as the mule which have no understanding,
Whose trappings include bit and bridle to hold them in check,
Otherwise they will not come near to you.

10Many are the sorrows of the wicked,
But he who trusts in the LORD, lovingkindness shall surround him.

11Be glad in the LORD and rejoice, you righteous ones;
And shout for joy, all you who are upright in heart.

Dartman · Sep 27, 2017

Phantasman said:
So Jehovah spoke to Moses ...from heaven?

Nope, from Mt. Sinai.

Phantasman said:
John:
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven, but my Father giveth you that true bread from heaven.

Orthodoxy is a hard habit to break. If God talked to Moses, why did we need the son to come and speak from the Father. No man has heard the Father, including Moses.

..... You have a verse for "No man has heard the Father"???

Dartman · Sep 27, 2017

mmbattlestar said:
But, Jesus did claim that he was Jehovah. In John 8:58 he said "Before Abraham was born, I am". The Jews in John Chapter 8 knew exactly what Jesus was claiming to be, that's why they wanted to stone him to death. Jesus was claiming to be the God of the Old Testament. You're right no man has or can see the Father's face. The Father IS Jehovah like I've stated before. But, Jesus is also Jehovah. I did explain how Jesus is also Jehovah. Jesus is also Jehovah because of the scriptural evidence I presented in the OP. The Father and Jesus are one (John 10:30).

The desperate attempt to distort John 8:58 into a "claim" that Jesus is Jehovah underscores the utter lack of ANYTHING remotely supporting trinity.
The Greek prepositional phrase ego emi doesn't compare to the Greek translation of Ex 3:14 in the LXX... where those Hebrew translators rendered it "O On".

It is BLATANTLY obvious the Jews were wrong in John 8, and it is stunningly significant that trinitarians are reliant on their ERROR for support!!

iwbswiaihl2 · Sep 27, 2017

Dartman said:
Nope, from Mt. Sinai.

..... You have a verse for "No man has heard the Father"???

Just the first and there are more, that comes to mind is the transfiguration, God the Father said this is my Son listen to Him. Matt 17:5-6 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!” 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces and were greatly afraid.

klutedavid · Sep 27, 2017

Dartman said:
Nope, from Mt. Sinai.

..... You have a verse for "No man has heard the Father"???

Hello Dartman.

John 5:37
And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

Dartman · Sep 27, 2017

Baby Cottontail said:
No one in this thread has stated that Jesus is the Father.

We are saying that Jesus is YHWH/Jehovah, just as the Father is.

Utterly impossible.
Jehovah/YHVH God authorizes us to use reality as a test of truth, and the convoluted, contradictory reasoning that both Jesus and his God are Jehovah is a perfect example of the impossibility of the trinity.

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