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If he is God in the NT he is God in the OT... one God who does not change!
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Was Jesus the God of the Old Testament?
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the Father is the "God", while Jesus is the "Lord" - it is something like the difference between a king and his son, the prince - and of course They are one and the so-called "Lord God" (John 10:30)
Blessings
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Living Soul
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Dartman
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None of these verses make the statement you claim.
They state God's word is Him, and was with Him. It does NOT say "Jesus is the Father".
The verses state the Father SENT Jesus, SPOKE to Jesus, was SEEN by Jesus. Those statements prove Jesus is NOT the Father.
Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah. Jesus, in fact, states this CLEARLY, declaring that his Father is "the ONLY true God";
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent
Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah, since Jehovah stated clearly that HE would be the source of Jesus' words, and Jesus stated clearly that his Father is the source of his words.. and doubles the proof by saying "they are NOT MY words" (John 14:24).
Deut 18:17 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
John 12:49,50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
Clearly, the Father is Jehovah, Jesus is not!
This is also proven in MANY other texts!
For example;
Isa 42:1-8 Behold, My servant, whom I uphold; My chosen, in whom My soul delighteth: I have put My Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. 2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth. 4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.
5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; He that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house. 8 I am Jehovah, that is My name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither My praise unto graven images.
Jesus is Jehovah's servant, Jehovah's chosen, the one who received Jehovah's spirit, and was promised to the Gentiles. Jehovah is the creator, Jesus is His servant.
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Finally! Someone who disagrees with me! I was waiting for this moment, finally we have a debate going on. I disagree. Jesus is the only person who has seen the Father which means that Jesus HAS to be the God of the OT. If the Father was Jehovah than why did Jesus say in the verses that I mentioned that nobody has seen the Father? Even John said that nobody has seen the Father. Yet, countless people in the OT have seen the God of the Old Testament including Adam and Eve themselves. So, if the Father was Jehovah that would mean Adam and Eve and countless other people in the OT have seen the Father. This raises a problem because, that makes Jesus a liar.
And as a God, Jesus cannot lie. I might believe that John as a mortal man who can,did and does sin can lie. But, our Lord and Savior cannot. Therefore Jesus HAS to be Yahweh. You're right though, the Father is also Yahweh as proven in the texts you've quoted. However, the scriptures that you've quoted does NOT prove that the Father is the God of the OT. It proves that the Father is mightier than Jesus and that Jesus is "lesser" than the Father and that the father is Yahweh along with Jesus but Jesus IS the God of the OT that spoke to all of the people in the OT.
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He cannot be tempted with evil nor does He tempt any man to sin, James 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts He any man.
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Isa 44:6 “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:‘I am the first and I am the last,And there is no God besides Me. There is and always has been the Godhead, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But if you saying that it was Jesus that was ever seen before He came in the flesh, I would agree.
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Phantasman
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The OT was a time of Angels, not Christ. And Christ wasn't Christ until the chrism (by John).
Jesus wasn't Jesus until the immaculate conception.
The son of the living God was not the God of the Jews.
1 Samuel:
19 And he smote of the men of Beth Shemesh, because they b]">[b]had looked in the Ark of the Lord: he slew even among the people fifty thousand men and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the Lord had slain the people with so great a slaughter.
Jesus kingdom (kingdom of God) is not of this Earth. So I am not going to blame him for murdering. Jesus told the Jews that their Father (capital F) was a "liar and murderer" from the beginning. Jesus was the truth the Jews didn't have. Orthodoxy teaches of YHWH, Jehovah and others. The Gospel doesn't. It is the "grace" and "truth" of love, not fear.
Matthew:
31 And concerning the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read what is spoken unto you of God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
33 And when the multitude heard it, they were astonied at his doctrine.
The resurrection of the dead (Jews who lived) were saved by Christ at the crucifixion.
Matthew:
51 a]">[a]And behold, the b]">[b]veil of the Temple was rent in twain, from the top to the bottom, and the earth did quake, and the stones were cloven.
52 And the c]">[c]graves did open themselves, and many bodies of the Saints, which slept, arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
The Jews God saved no one. The living God saved them through their faith. Isaiah was as close to the true God as it got back then.
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I didn't really think of that. You're right then God cannot sin nor has he ever been tempted to sin.
There's further proof that Jesus is the God of the OT. I didn't think of putting that into my OP.
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Saved.By.Grace
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The God of the Holy Bible, is One, "Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One" (Deuteronomy 6:4). This means that the Godhead is One Being. However, it is equally clear from the teaching in the Bible, that there are Three Persons Who are equally called God. While it is true that Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament, this does not mean that every time we read "God" or "Lord" in the Old Testament, that it is referring to Jesus Christ. The God of the Bible is not "uni-personal", but "Tri-personal", without being Three Gods.
The Hebrew word for God is "Elohim", which is masculine in gender, and plural in number. Hence we read In Genesis 1:26, "Let US make man in OUR image...". The use of the plural is not because God was addressing the angels, but speaking within the Trinity. In Ecclesiastes 12:1, we read, "Remember now your Creators" (so the Hebrew is in the plural number)
In Genesis chapter 18 we read of Abraham speaking on earth with "Yahweh" (verses 13, 17, 19, 20, etc). In chapter 19 we read, "hen the Lord (Yahweh) rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord (Yahweh) out of the heavens" (verse 24). Where we clearly have the One Lord on earth, Who calls to the Second Lord Who is in heaven!
Psalms 45:6 reads, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom", which is addressed to YAHWEH. In Hebrews 1:8, we have God the Father as the Speaker, and He is addressing Jesus Christ, where He says, "But to the Son He says:“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom".
In Psalm 102 we read of Yahweh, "I said, “O my God, Do not take me away in the midst of my days;
Your years are throughout all generations. Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You will endure; Yes, they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will change them, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will have no end.". And again in Hebrews chapter 1, the Father continues addressing Jesus Christ, and says, "And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain;And they will all grow old like a garment;Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail." (10-12). We have two references equally of God the Father, and God the Son.
In Isaiah 7, we read of the Prophecy of the Birth of the Lord Jesus Christ: " Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His Name Immanuel" (verse 14). The Name "Immanuel", literally means, "God-with-us", as the Apostle Paul puts it in 1 Timothy 3:16, "God was manifested in the flesh..." (according to the best textual evidence).
In Isaiah 9:6, also speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ, we are told: "For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His Name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". "Mighty God" (el gibbor), which is what God the Father is called in the next chapter of Isaiah, "Mighty God" (10:21). The Title "Everlasting Father", means in the Hebrew, "originator", describing His "eternity".
Isaiah 40:3, "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: “Prepare the way of the Lord; Make straight in the desert A highway for our God.". In the Gospels we are told that this Prophecy was fulfilled in John the Baptist who went before the Lord Jesus Christ. "For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying:The voice of one crying in the wilderness:‘Prepare the way of the Lord;Make His paths straight." (Matthew 3:3). Where Luke says, "And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God. He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, ‘to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”" (1:16-17). In verse 17, the words, "He will also go before Him", speak of "the Lord their God".
Isaiah 45:23, "I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath.". Words Spoken by Yahweh, which Paul in his Letter to the Philippians, uses for Jesus Christ, "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (2:10-11)
Jesus Himself says, " Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” (John 8:58). For which the Jews tried to stone Him for alleged "blasphemy" (verse 59). Because they clearly understood the Words of Jesus to be a reference to Exodus 3, when Moses asked God for His Name, to which God replied, "I AM THAT I AM" (3:14), that is "I AM the Eternal One", which is how the Greek Old Testament, some 150 years before the Birth of Jesus Christ, has it, "Εγω ειμι οΩν" "I AM He Who exists", which is the base meaning of the Name, YAHWEH. The Greek of John 8:58 is very interesting, Jesus says, "before Abraham ever existed, I AM", the contrast being between that which "came into being", and that which "always IS"
In 1 Corinthians 10:9, the Apostle Paul writes, "nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents". Words in the Old Testament used for YAHWEH, but applied by Paul to Jesus Christ. The account Paul refers to is Numbers 21:5-6, where we read, " And the people spoke against God and against Moses: “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and our soul loathes this worthless bread.” So the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died"
There is much more on the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ in the Old Testament, but this evidence is more than sufficient.
The Hebrew word for God is "Elohim", which is masculine in gender, and plural in number. Hence we read In Genesis 1:26, "Let US make man in OUR image...". The use of the plural is not because God was addressing the angels, but speaking within the Trinity. In Ecclesiastes 12:1, we read, "Remember now your Creators" (so the Hebrew is in the plural number)
In Genesis chapter 18 we read of Abraham speaking on earth with "Yahweh" (verses 13, 17, 19, 20, etc). In chapter 19 we read, "hen the Lord (Yahweh) rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord (Yahweh) out of the heavens" (verse 24). Where we clearly have the One Lord on earth, Who calls to the Second Lord Who is in heaven!
Psalms 45:6 reads, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom", which is addressed to YAHWEH. In Hebrews 1:8, we have God the Father as the Speaker, and He is addressing Jesus Christ, where He says, "But to the Son He says:“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom".
In Psalm 102 we read of Yahweh, "I said, “O my God, Do not take me away in the midst of my days;
Your years are throughout all generations. Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You will endure; Yes, they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will change them, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will have no end.". And again in Hebrews chapter 1, the Father continues addressing Jesus Christ, and says, "And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain;And they will all grow old like a garment;Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail." (10-12). We have two references equally of God the Father, and God the Son.
In Isaiah 7, we read of the Prophecy of the Birth of the Lord Jesus Christ: " Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His Name Immanuel" (verse 14). The Name "Immanuel", literally means, "God-with-us", as the Apostle Paul puts it in 1 Timothy 3:16, "God was manifested in the flesh..." (according to the best textual evidence).
In Isaiah 9:6, also speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ, we are told: "For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His Name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". "Mighty God" (el gibbor), which is what God the Father is called in the next chapter of Isaiah, "Mighty God" (10:21). The Title "Everlasting Father", means in the Hebrew, "originator", describing His "eternity".
Isaiah 40:3, "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: “Prepare the way of the Lord; Make straight in the desert A highway for our God.". In the Gospels we are told that this Prophecy was fulfilled in John the Baptist who went before the Lord Jesus Christ. "For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying:The voice of one crying in the wilderness:‘Prepare the way of the Lord;Make His paths straight." (Matthew 3:3). Where Luke says, "And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God. He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, ‘to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”" (1:16-17). In verse 17, the words, "He will also go before Him", speak of "the Lord their God".
Isaiah 45:23, "I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath.". Words Spoken by Yahweh, which Paul in his Letter to the Philippians, uses for Jesus Christ, "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (2:10-11)
Jesus Himself says, " Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” (John 8:58). For which the Jews tried to stone Him for alleged "blasphemy" (verse 59). Because they clearly understood the Words of Jesus to be a reference to Exodus 3, when Moses asked God for His Name, to which God replied, "I AM THAT I AM" (3:14), that is "I AM the Eternal One", which is how the Greek Old Testament, some 150 years before the Birth of Jesus Christ, has it, "Εγω ειμι οΩν" "I AM He Who exists", which is the base meaning of the Name, YAHWEH. The Greek of John 8:58 is very interesting, Jesus says, "before Abraham ever existed, I AM", the contrast being between that which "came into being", and that which "always IS"
In 1 Corinthians 10:9, the Apostle Paul writes, "nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents". Words in the Old Testament used for YAHWEH, but applied by Paul to Jesus Christ. The account Paul refers to is Numbers 21:5-6, where we read, " And the people spoke against God and against Moses: “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and our soul loathes this worthless bread.” So the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died"
There is much more on the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ in the Old Testament, but this evidence is more than sufficient.
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Dartman
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The problem is there are at least 3 meanings for "see the Father".
The MOST restrictive is the definition Jehovah Himself gives.
Ex 33:17 And Jehovah said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken; for thou hast found favor in My sight, and I know thee by name. 18 And He said, Show me, I pray thee, thy glory. 19 And He said, I will make all My goodness pass before thee, and will proclaim the name of Jehovah before thee; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. 20 And He said, Thou canst not see My face; for man shall not see Me and live. 21 And Jehovah said, Behold, there is a place by Me, and thou shalt stand upon the rock: 22 and it shall come to pass, while My glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a cleft of the rock, and will cover thee with My hand until I have passed by: 23 and I will take away My hand, and thou shalt see My back; but My face shall not be seen.
So, we learn a number of things here!
1) Jehovah Himself defines "see Me" = "see My face" (So, a VERY valid meaning of "no man has seen God" is, no one has seen HIS FACE)
2) Jehovah Himself states seeing HIS FACE will kill men. So, NO MORTAL MAN has seen Jehovah's face... therefore Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah, since thousands saw Jesus' face.
You did NOT explain the proof that Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah, since Jehovah IS the source of Jesus' words. Please explain this.
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He tested Abraham to show Abraham's reaction, though He surely knew the outcome before Abraham did, nevertheless, the testing of the Lord is not placing one in tempting him to sin, but to place one in the position to test the response. That is a difference in testing and tempting one to try to get them to submit to the flesh. The verse I posted from James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone, surely proves that God never tempts one to sin. We see in Deut 8:2-3 “Every commandment which I command you today you must be careful to observe, that you may live and multiply, and go in and possess the land of which the Lord swore to your fathers. 2 And you shall remember that the Lord your God led you all the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you and test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not. We can see by this that it is the person who learns what is inside them and who or what they are trusting. An all knowing God surely knows all things and scripture believing saints agree with this passage from Isa 55:8-9 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,So are My ways higher than your ways,And My thoughts than your thoughts. Amen
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Phantasman
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So Jehovah spoke to Moses ...from heaven?
John:
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven, but my Father giveth you that true bread from heaven.
Orthodoxy is a hard habit to break. If God talked to Moses, why did we need the son to come and speak from the Father. No man has heard the Father, including Moses.
Matthew:
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
John:
I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your Father.
Two Fathers (capital F). Jesus could not have spoken to the Jews through their Father.
John:
Believest thou not, that I am in the Father, and the Father is in me? The words that I speak unto you, I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
The world had never had the Spirit of truth until Christ gave it to the world from the Father.
John:
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever,
17 Even the a]">[a]Spirit of truth, whom the b]">[b]world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him: for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you fatherless: but I will come to you.
And what does the Spirit of truth do:
John:
But when that Comforter shall come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth of the Father, he shall testify of me.
Not Abraham. Nor Moses. Nor Jehovah. Nor YHWH. Or anyone else.
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Saved.By.Grace
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In John 6:46 Jesus says: "not that anyone has seen the Father except the One who is from God. He has seen the Father.". In John 1:18, the best textual evidence reads, "No one has ever seen God; the Unique God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.". Here we read that no person has ever seen "God the Father" at any time, as it does in 6:46. Note also that there are Two Persons Who are called "God" in John 1:18. The Father, and the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ Who reveals the Father. It is evident that it was the pre-Incarnate Jesus Christ Who appeared to Moses and spoke with Him. Jesus Christ in the Old Testament also is know as "the Messenger of God" (or Angel of the Lord), not a created being, but the Eternal Second Person in the Holy Trinity. In Exodus chapter three, we read of the burning bush, where it says that "And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush" (verse 2). In verse 4 we read, "God called to him out of the bush", and said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God" (verse 6). Since the Person in the bush was "the Messenger of the Lord", He cannot be the same Person as the "God" from Whom He came. There is a clear distinction in the Persons. In Malachi 3:1 we read, "I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before Me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the Messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty". The first "messenger" is John the Baptist, as fulfilled in Matthew 3, and the other Gospels. The Second is "the Lord you are seeking", which is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ.
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Saved.By.Grace
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You are mistaken is saying "tempted", the Hebrew is "tested", which is a big difference! So the Hebrew lexicon of Brown, Driver and Briggs, "God tests or proves Abraham"
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Phantasman
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The Father doesn't test nor tempt.
The word test isn't even in the NT. Was Job tested? Not by the Father.
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