You Must Give 10% of Your Gross Income to the Church?
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2Timothy2:15
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This is where reading the text in context make a difference. Actually I have studied those verses in context along with Acts 18, Acts 20 and 1 Thessalonians. Which all clearly state that Paul had a job and he did not take money from people. What Paul was talking about was food, not a salary. It is you my friend who is need of earnest study on this topic with all due respect.
Next verse negates the one you quoted.
15 : neither But I have used none of these thingshave I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.
15 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.
Show me where it says we should have a building that generates bills we need to pay for.
1 Thessalonians 2King James Version (KJV)
2 For yourselves, brethren, know our entrance in unto you, that it was not in vain:
2 But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention.
3 For our exhortation was not of deceit, nor of uncleanness, nor in guile:
4 But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.
5 For neither at any time used we flattering words, as ye know, nor a cloke of covetousness; God is witness:
(they did not take salaries) not just Paul
6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.
7 But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherisheth her children:
8 So being affectionately desirous of you, we were willing to have imparted unto you, not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, because ye were dear unto us.
9 For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God.
They all were working to provide for themselves labouring night and day. Why so they would not be chargeable to ANY of you - meaning no one owed them a salary nor did they expect it.
How is it that there is SO much evidence of this in scripture, not just Paul not charging but all the Apostles yet it is totally ignored by the hirelings today who simply want to justify their salaries.
10 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:
1 Thessalonians 4
9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;
11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
Why is Paul telling them to work with their hands? Because this is the model, the model he is doing through example and what he expects. Why...verse 12 tells us.
12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
Walking honestly = working and providing for yourself and others, just as Paul, Barnabas, Timothy, and Titus ALL did
2 Thessalonians 3
7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
There it is Paul was not just simply foregoing some false right to a salary he explains CLEARLY - all should work, including pastors.
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I won't say you aren't hearing from God right. However, from my own experience, I used to think God wanted me to do the same because I was always told that people who don't give 10% of their income to the church are guilty of robbing God (see Malachi 3:8).
But then I studied the subject out carefully and discovered that these people who convinced me of these things were mishandling the word of God, taking verses out of context and reading meaning into them that isn't there. In other words, they were not being truthful. Thus, I concluded that the conviction I thought I had wasn't of God, but was the result of manipulation.
It's your personal choice to give 10% of your income to the church you attend. I have no issue with that. You've earned the money and have a right to decide how much to give and where to give it (2 Cor. 9:7). But your choice isn't the standard. Don't push false guilt on people because they don't do the same as you.
Just because someone isn't giving 10% of his or her gross income to a church organization, it doesn't mean his or her love for God is less than yours.
By the way, a church building can have its bills paid through free will offerings and good management; it doesn't need people to command its members to give 10% of their gross income to it.
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What is the name of the individual you believe is the angel of this church age?
Why do you think you should pay this individual tithes?
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Newlyrestoredgospel777
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Prophet Jude Alexander. Because he is the 7th Angel of the 7th Church Age, the 3rd Elijah.
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I find the title of this thread to be curious. For a salaried professional the difference between gross income and net income is relatively marginal. However, for someone such as a farmer the difference is enormous. Out of his gross income he must pay all of the expenses of running his farm. For many farmer the net income is considerably less than 10% of the gross income. Thus, if God required these farmers to give 10% of their gross income to their church they would be forced to sell their farms to do so and join the ranks of the unemployed.
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No need to put so much thought into it: There is no command in the Bible given by God for believers to give 10% of their net or gross income to a church organization.
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Just thinking of the math, if the tax rate is 10% and someone pays 10% of his income, that is a lot different from if the taxes are 80% and he gives 10% of his income.
I wouldn't be surprised if some preachers wanted 10% of sales from businessmen, though that could put some businessmen in the red.
I wouldn't be surprised if some preachers wanted 10% of sales from businessmen, though that could put some businessmen in the red.
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Well, this guy is at least the third, third Elijah I've ever heard of.
If you think he's the third Elijah and the 7th angel of the 7th church age, why would you pay tithes to him? The Old Testament said the tithes were for the Levites, not the third Elijah or the 7th angel. Why don't you give all your tithes of crops and herds you harvest from the land of Israel to the Levites instead of to this man?
Btw, what kind of things has he done that demonstrate that He is a prophet of God? Has he accurately prophesied future events, for example?
Also, how is Nigeria 'the east'. Isn't that the west from your perspective, and from the perspective of Israel (to a lesser extent...more to the south)?
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2Timothy2:15
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Right, and what about if you get a tax return? My old pastor said you had to tithe off of that. But that is a return from a gross income on taxes already paid. What about if you get money from a family member, like an inheritance. According to my old pastor you had to tithe off of that increase as well even though the bible forbids people from getting your inheritance. Funny thing is it turns out my old pastor and his wife were getting 300k a year between salaries, housing income, car insurance money, travel, clothing allowance, and books. Hmmmm, ask to see the books in your church to see where your tithe really goes. Many will be shocked, that is if they even let you look. One sister in my old church asked to see the books and the pastor said she was cursed for not trusting "Gods anointed".
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God bless.
Genesis 14:17-21
"17After Abram returned from defeating Kedorlaomer and the kings allied with him, the king of Sodom came out to meet him in the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King’s Valley).
18Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, 19and he blessed Abram, saying,
“Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Creator of heaven and earth.
20And praise be to God Most High,
who delivered your enemies into your hand.”
Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.
21The king of Sodom said to Abram, “Give me the people and keep the goods for yourself.”"
This is the first source of "sharing" among priests to people. Call it tithing, tribute, gifts.
Numbers 18: 20-22
20The Lord said to Aaron, “You will have no inheritance in their land, nor will you have any share among them; I am your share and your inheritance among the Israelites.
21“I give to the Levites all the tithes in Israel as their inheritance in return for the work they do while serving at the tent of meeting. 22From now on the Israelites must not go near the tent of meeting, or they will bear the consequences of their sin and will die.
The Levites were chosen to be the priesthood for Israel. Since their lives were devoted to God and ministry, how could they make money? Therefore, "sharing" was made a law in order to sustain the "tribe" of Levi. It makes sense.
Tithing (for those who can) supports the church and body of Christ. However, pastors spending on mansions, sports cars and carelessly spending other people' money will be judged by God. This is not how the money is supposed to be used. It is meant for the ministry, priesthood, church building and land, and helping the needy and impoverished.
Genesis 14:17-21
"17After Abram returned from defeating Kedorlaomer and the kings allied with him, the king of Sodom came out to meet him in the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King’s Valley).
18Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, 19and he blessed Abram, saying,
“Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Creator of heaven and earth.
20And praise be to God Most High,
who delivered your enemies into your hand.”
Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.
21The king of Sodom said to Abram, “Give me the people and keep the goods for yourself.”"
This is the first source of "sharing" among priests to people. Call it tithing, tribute, gifts.
Numbers 18: 20-22
20The Lord said to Aaron, “You will have no inheritance in their land, nor will you have any share among them; I am your share and your inheritance among the Israelites.
21“I give to the Levites all the tithes in Israel as their inheritance in return for the work they do while serving at the tent of meeting. 22From now on the Israelites must not go near the tent of meeting, or they will bear the consequences of their sin and will die.
The Levites were chosen to be the priesthood for Israel. Since their lives were devoted to God and ministry, how could they make money? Therefore, "sharing" was made a law in order to sustain the "tribe" of Levi. It makes sense.
Tithing (for those who can) supports the church and body of Christ. However, pastors spending on mansions, sports cars and carelessly spending other people' money will be judged by God. This is not how the money is supposed to be used. It is meant for the ministry, priesthood, church building and land, and helping the needy and impoverished.
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Abraham gave a tenth from the spoils of war. It was a spoils of war tithe, not the Levitical tithe (see Hebrews 7:4).
And just because Abraham gave a tenth from the spoils, it doesn't mean we are required to do the same. If we are required to do the same, then that would mean we would have to go to war.
There is no command from God in the Bible for Christians to give 10% of their income to a church organization. Moreover, money didn't qualify as tithe. Tithe was given in food; and only those who owned land and herds were required to give a tithe from their increase to the Levites. Read Leviticus 27:30, 32; and Malachi 3:10. In other words, tithe wasn't given from income, but rather from what the land produced.
Under the New Covenant it is all free will giving. Read 2 Corinthians 9:7
Stop listening to lies and read what the Bible really says on the subject. You have been deceived by false teaching.
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God bless.
Indeed tithing is tithing. I wasn't specific to mention that the tithing system was under the Old Testament covenant. Whether spoils of war or Levitical tithing makes no difference however. Tribute is tribute no matter how you draw the appeal. Indeed there is no command for the tithe to be given to "church" organizations as you put it. However, if not, then you have to explain and provide a model for how ministers, church buildings and wages are to be paid. You said money didn't qualify as tithe, which I have to disagree with, although any resource would suffice in its context. What you're saying makes no sense. Tithes were offered in many forms.
You state that under the new covenant it is all free giving. Indeed it is. As far as the Christ (Jesus) is concerned, we are to give everything away.
As for stating that "you have been deceived..." et cetera, you can slow right down there brother and take it easy. You haven't necessarily made any advancements on the matter did you? What I stated was true. You could have simply stated that the context I used was in light of Old Testament / Jewish law.
Even so, how is it not a requirement to support the church? Although I agree with it being free giving. When the Christ (Jesus) said "give everything and follow me" - was that not a command, or was he just implying we should give it at will of OUR own accord? Careful. Maybe it is you that is deceived here.
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You raise three curious questions here - how ministers, church buildings and wages are to be paid.
Having been to China several times, I will tell you about how this things are in a culture that is much closer to the New Testament period than ours.
1. Ministers - There is absolutely no indication in scripture of salaried ministers (or priests in the New Testament, for that matter). Peter calls all believers a royal and a holy priesthood. In the church we see elders and deacons, none of whom draw a salary. In China Christians are too poor to pay anyone to do the work of ministry for them, so they do it themselves. And what is the outcome? A church that is growing by leaps and bounds in contrast to the steadily diminishing church in the United States.
2. Church buildings. Where did the church in the first century meet? It was assuredly not in magnificent cathedrals, basilicas, chapels, or other buildings. We see that they met in homes. What does it cost to pay for a house to meet in? Nothing, because it is owned by the occupant. Thus, in China unregistered Christians meet in houses and apartments and leave the cost of building payments to the government churches.
3. Wages. This is similar to the first point about minister's salaries. In the first century Christians were not salaried to do the work of ministry. They loved God, rather than Mammon, and thus it is in China today.
I trust this addresses your points and I respectfully remain convinced that God does not need your tithe or anyone else's for that matter.
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God bless.
I have to say, that was beautifully put brother/sister. Well done. And to be courteous as you have been I will address your points one at a time as well. Thank you in advance.
1. Let us remember that God does not change. Therefore, I simply took the "Levitical" mandate and Abraham's encounter with Melchizedek et cetera as "ordained" and the will of God. Indeed, ministers and churches and resources must come from somewhere and someone has to give. I have to disagree with what you stated when you say there is no scriptural basis for salaried ministers. If you believe this, then you must address and justify the following passage (I may be wrong, but this sounds like a requirement from God the Father). Exodus 18:20-24. (I agree with your First point completely and proud to hear that good news)
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20The Lord said to Aaron, “You will have no inheritance in their land, nor will you have any share among them; I am your share and your inheritance among the Israelites.
21“I give to the Levites all the tithes in Israel as their inheritance in return for the work they do while serving at the tent of meeting. 22From now on the Israelites must not go near the tent of meeting, or they will bear the consequences of their sin and will die. 23It is the Levites who are to do the work at the tent of meeting and bear the responsibility for any offenses they commit against it. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. They will receive no inheritance among the Israelites. 24Instead, I give to the Levites as their inheritance the tithes that the Israelites present as an offering to the Lord. That is why I said concerning them: ‘They will have no inheritance among the Israelites.’ ”
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2. Indeed the apostles and early Christians met in homes. However, where did they preach? On the streets, in synagogues, in cathedrals even Paul at the Sanhedrin took the opportunity to minister. I must humble disagree with this statement. Though, yes, they did meet and prepare in homes. The Chinese are quite awesome. They're doing what we should be doing. I love the fact that you're brining light to this. Good work!
3. I couldn't agree more. Even so, they gave and shared and sold their possessions! Thanks for sheding light on this here.
However, the issue isn't resolved. If we didn't live in a world where a system of money enslaved us, this would be a piece of cake. If only. In any case, and unfortunately, that is the context we are presented with and expected to work in. Therefore, Churches, land, resources cost money. Whether a person believes money is not a form of tithe and food is, doesn't change the fact that money allows the purchase of such things.
Therefore, the point emerges and I dislike the fact that I must admit, a godless society has created these circumstances. You must ask yourself, what would happen if church members stopped giving the tithe? Ministers would most likely hold their sermons in homes. They would have to get jobs which would hinder their ministry since they would be working 2 jobs. There isn't as much space in a home. There are far less resources in a home (billboards, news boards et cetera). I just hope it doesn't get to that point.
Thanks for elaborating.
God bless.
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Of course it makes a difference. If it didn't make a difference, God wouldn't have been so specific about what people were to tithe and who was required to give it (see Leviticus 27:30, 32). You clearly haven't studied this subject enough to understand it.
The answer to that is found here: "So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver." 2 Corinthians 9:7 (NKJV)
Wrong. The Bible says it. Here's your reminder: Leviticus 27:30, 32; and Malachi 3:10. It's the Bible you do not agree with, not me.
It makes no sense to you because you haven't taken the time to study it out. If you do a thorough study on the subject, you will see that you are in error. It didn't make sense to me either, until I took a closer look at what the Bible says.
Then why are you trying to put a guilt trip on me for not agreeing with you that believers are required to give 10% of their income to a church organization? You appear to be contradicting yourself here.
You must have missed most of what I wrote in this thread.
I never said it wasn't.
No. You just haven't paid much attention to what I have been saying throughout this thread.
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God bless.
I said this in light of the context given. Your Leviticus passage reference makes no sense at all in relation to this matter.
I haven't clearly studied the subject enough? Are you serious?
I suppose you are so much smarter in these matters. I suspect you know all my credentials. Amazing.
Careful.
The Corinthians reference was twisted and it address no matter of Levitical tithing law at all.
I can't understand how you're even attempting these theological gymnastics.
Oh well. It seems we are at an impasse. Nevertheless, it's of no contention.
I will continue giving how I see fit and willingly (actually, as per your view of giving).
However, it changes nothing in the matter. Until you harmonize Exodus 18, you will not find balance.
God bless.
I said this in light of the context given. Your Leviticus passage reference makes no sense at all in relation to this matter.
I haven't clearly studied the subject enough? Are you serious?
I suppose you are so much smarter in these matters. I suspect you know all my credentials. Amazing.
Careful.
The Corinthians reference was twisted and it address no matter of Levitical tithing law at all.
I can't understand how you're even attempting these theological gymnastics.
Oh well. It seems we are at an impasse. Nevertheless, it's of no contention.
I will continue giving how I see fit and willingly (actually, as per your view of giving).
However, it changes nothing in the matter. Until you harmonize Exodus 18, you will not find balance.
God bless.
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There are pastors overseeing large congregations who don't push people to give 10% of their income to their church organization. People in their churches are encouraged to give freely, not by compulsion.
By the way, who says you need to have a church building to worship God? What's wrong with having a house church? It seems to me that the house church model is better.
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God bless.
woobadooba, I mentioned that we arrived at an impasse. There is no point continuing from here.
Nowhere did I state that people / ministers should push for tithing.
However, Exodus 18 makes it clear (at least to me) that it is a requirement instated by God the Father.
Even so, the words of the Christ (Jesus) in the New Testament (your approach of freely giving) is one I support foremost (As I mentioned).
Of course people don't need churches to worship God. There is no point saying this since it's common sense. Yes it is better in homes since it is more personal.
Get back to me with your thoughts on Exodus 18. Otherwise, our discussion has come to an end.
I will further my investigation and study with bbbbbb. If you have something new to add, you're welcome to add to it.
Otherwise, I see no point in contending with you since we are on a different spectrum here and will be wasting each others time.
Thanks.
woobadooba, I mentioned that we arrived at an impasse. There is no point continuing from here.
Nowhere did I state that people / ministers should push for tithing.
However, Exodus 18 makes it clear (at least to me) that it is a requirement instated by God the Father.
Even so, the words of the Christ (Jesus) in the New Testament (your approach of freely giving) is one I support foremost (As I mentioned).
Of course people don't need churches to worship God. There is no point saying this since it's common sense. Yes it is better in homes since it is more personal.
Get back to me with your thoughts on Exodus 18. Otherwise, our discussion has come to an end.
I will further my investigation and study with bbbbbb. If you have something new to add, you're welcome to add to it.
Otherwise, I see no point in contending with you since we are on a different spectrum here and will be wasting each others time.
Thanks.
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God bless.
Hey, you know you're right.
I don't bother debating people who accuse me of "not knowing".
That's condescension at its best and disrespect at its worst.
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2 Corinthians 9:7 is proof believers are not required to give a mandatory tithe to the church. No theological gymnastics here: You just aren't seeing things right.
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Would it make you feel better if people told you you know things you are unaware of?
I am only trying to help you understand the truth about tithing. I am not trying to make you feel small. You are being overly sensitive.
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