Is Just War ever acceptable?

Francis Drake said:

How's that pan out for Cornelius?

When Jesus said "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" It was not limited to paying taxes.
Like all other kings, Caesar had conscription. Thus people like Cornelius ended up fighting for Caesar with little choice.

And how should Cornelius behave?


You will note that Jesus did not tell him to resign his commission and get a peaceable job

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The early fathers are pretty explicit that a soldier who converts was forbidden from following orders that were contrary to the faith--that meant no violence. A classic example of soldier converts is that of St. Marcellus the Centurion, who converted in secret and on the emperor's birthday was overwhelmed by his conscience, and so he took off and cast his military belt upon the floor, declaring publicly that he had become a Christian. This act of defiance cost him his life.

St. Hippolytus says that catechumens seeking Baptism are forbidden from joining the military.

Tertullian tells us that "When Christ disarmed Peter, he unbelted every soldier."

The simple fact is that in the early Church there was little, if any room, for compromise on this issue: One could not serve both Christ and Caesar. Origen, in Contra Celsus, says that the Christian does a much better service for the king through prayer than through soldiering. St. Martin of Tours declared, "I am Christ's soldier, it is forbidden of me to fight."

Without the marriage of Church and State in the post-Constantinian world, this wouldn't even be much of a debate at all--the position of the holy fathers in antiquity was quite unanimous: Christians do not fight, not personally nor in wars.

Also, Tradition does say Cornelius abandoned his military career in order to follow the Apostles.

Lives of Saints :: Hator 23

-CryptoLutheran

Francis Drake said:

How's that pan out for Cornelius?

When Jesus said "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" It was not limited to paying taxes.
Like all other kings, Caesar had conscription. Thus people like Cornelius ended up fighting for Caesar with little choice.

And how should Cornelius behave?


You will note that Jesus did not tell him to resign his commission and get a peaceable job

Click to expand...

From what scripture says of Cornelius, and studying how the Roman legions operated in the early-to-mid empire, it's most likely Cornelius was a volunteer (not a conscript) and that he was living as a retiree on property deeded to him by the Empire in Judea. This was commonly done because it kept men who might have soldiers personally loyal to them out on the periphery of the empire and away from Rome. Cornelius most likely had a Jewish wife and a few children by her.

If Cornelius were still on "active duty," he'd still be living in the garrison.

ViaCrucis said:

The early fathers are pretty explicit that a soldier who converts was forbidden from following orders that were contrary to the faith--that meant no violence. A classic example of soldier converts is that of St. Marcellus the Centurion, who converted in secret and on the emperor's birthday was overwhelmed by his conscience, and so he took off and cast his military belt upon the floor, declaring publicly that he had become a Christian. This act of defiance cost him his life.

St. Hippolytus says that catechumens seeking Baptism are forbidden from joining the military.

Tertullian tells us that "When Christ disarmed Peter, he unbelted every soldier."

The simple fact is that in the early Church there was little, if any room, for compromise on this issue: One could not serve both Christ and Caesar. Origen, in Contra Celsus, says that the Christian does a much better service for the king through prayer than through soldiering. St. Martin of Tours declared, "I am Christ's soldier, it is forbidden of me to fight."

Without the marriage of Church and State in the post-Constantinian world, this wouldn't even be much of a debate at all--the position of the holy fathers in antiquity was quite unanimous: Christians do not fight, not personally nor in wars.

Also, Tradition does say Cornelius abandoned his military career in order to follow the Apostles.

Lives of Saints :: Hator 23

-CryptoLutheran

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I'm not really interested in what religious leaders of the past have to say. I'd rather listen to Jesus and he did not tell the soldiers to leave the army.

Jesus's command to Peter to put his sword away was specific to that event. Peter had previously objected to the idea of Jesus dying, and was doing it again. If Peter had succeeded, there would have been no crucifixion!

RDKirk said:

From what scripture says of Cornelius, and studying how the Roman legions operated in the early-to-mid empire, it's most likely Cornelius was a volunteer (not a conscript) and that he was living as a retiree on property deeded to him by the Empire in Judea. This was commonly done because it kept men who might have soldiers personally loyal to them out on the periphery of the empire and away from Rome. Cornelius most likely had a Jewish wife and a few children by her.

If Cornelius were still on "active duty," he'd still be living in the garrison.

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You are adding a whole load of supposition that is not backed by the text, and also is contradicted by an encounter that Jesus had with another centurion!-

Matt8v5When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6“Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.”
Here we see that the centurion lived at home and not just in the barracks

7Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?”
8The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof.
This makes it clear that it was the centurion's home and not his servant's.

But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
Again this confirms that he was still an active fighting soldier and not a retiree.

10When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Jesus gives a glowing report of the soldier, but says nothing about handing in his sword!

Pacifism as Taught in the New Testament is Moral and Good:

Christians are to walk by faith and not by sight. For without faith, it is impossible to please God. Trusting in the verses or passages in the Bible on pacifism takes faith. You have to first believe these words in the Bible and you have to take it by faith that God has an ultimate good plan that we cannot always see (No matter what happens to us). The life story of Joseph is a good example of this. What Joseph's brothers intended for evil against Joseph, God intended to use their evil for the purpose of good. It is the same with Jesus. What appeared to be the death of the disciple's master (which really had upset Peter at first), was the ultimate plan of redemption for all mankind. Something that appeared to be horrible (The death of Jesus), was just the start of something amazing and good. So we cannot always see what God's plan is even when we are to walk in the valley of the shadow of death. For when Job had lost his sons, certain possessions, and his health, he could have denied God and turn away from Him. But Job did not do that. He still continued to believe in the Lord and worship Him (even if he did briefly get angry at God). The idea of pacifism is hard for many of us. Some of you may have been to war. Some of you may be a police officer and you rely on your gun. Some of you may have even saved lives countless times over with the use of violent force. But God's ways are higher than our ways. He calls us to do things by faith that does not always make sense to us. For there are cases where Christians who follow the New Testament's teaching on pacifism who have prayed and or praised God in a potentially violent situation and they were not harmed. Granted, this is not always the case. Christians are also called to be persecuted or to suffer as Christ had suffered. How can one truly do this if they are on the offensive and or attacking others? We are told to follow the life of Jesus. Yet, nowhere do we see Jesus ever fighting back. Jesus says take up your cross and come follow me. Jesus died on the cross. What would have seemed like the end, was actually something far more. When believers die or suffer for the cause of Christ and it leads to just one soul to the LORD because they see the love, peace, and dedication they have for God (who lives in them), then it is all worth it according to God's ultimate plan for good (Which is to lead as many men as possible to Him). But what about justice in a given situation? Should we stand by as we watch our family or friends or others get hurt? No. We can trust in God and pray to Him and act in a non-violent way so as to protect them. But wouldn't it seem simpler to just end evil men by shooting them? Then how can you witness Christ or the gospel to them if they are dead? Also, is not God in control of all things? Can anything truly bad happen to you without God's say so? But again, you might ask: What about justice in a given situation? If God told you to trust in Him and His plan of not acting violent, and something bad happens, do you think that evil or evil men will not be judged in the end? Can you also see God's entire good plan working in your life in trusting Him like with the story of Joseph and his brothers? Are you God to be able to see His greater plan for good?

New Testament Scripture That Supports Pacifism:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Matthew 26:52-53
52 Then Jesus told him, "Put your sword back in its place because all who take up a sword will perish by a sword.
53 Or do you think that I cannot call on My Father, and He will provide Me at once with more than 12 legions of angels?

Matthew 5:44-45
44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Luke 6:27-29
27 But I say to you that listen, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you.
29 If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also;

Luke 6:35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.

Matthew 5:39 But I say to you, Do not make use of force against an evil man; but to him who gives you a blow on the right side of your face let the left be turned. -Bible in Basic English

Luke 12:22 And he said to his disciples, "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat, nor about your body, what you shall put on.

Matthew 7:12 In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets.

1 Peter 3:8-9
8 Finally, all of you, have unity of spirit, sympathy, love of the brethren, a tender heart and a humble mind.
9 Do not return evil for evil or reviling for reviling; but on the contrary bless, for to this you have been called, that you may obtain a blessing.

Romans 12:17-21
17 Never repay anyone evil for evil. Take thought for what is right and gracious and proper in the sight of everyone. - AMP
18 and do your best to live at peace with everyone. - CEV
19 Christian brothers, never pay back someone for the bad he has done to you. Let the anger of God take care of the other person. - NLV for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. - KJV

1 Thessalonians 5:15 See that none of you repays evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to all.

1 Peter 2:21-23
21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
22 He committed no sin; no guile was found on his lips.
23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he trusted to him who judges justly.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

2 Corinthians 10:4 We do not use those things to fight with that the world uses. We use the things God gives to fight with and they have power. Those things God gives to fight with destroy the strong-places of the devil.

Luke 3:14 Do violence to no man,

John 8:7 But when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Matthew 10:28-31
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father’s will.
30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

Luke 2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called sons of God.

James 3:18 The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for them that make peace.

Romans 10:15. How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace.

Ephesians 6:14 Stand therefore . . . having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace.

Ephesians 4:1-3
1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord

Romans 16:20 The God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly.

2 Corinthians 13:11 Finally, brethren ... be perfected; be comforted; be of the same mind; live in peace: and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus

Galatians 1:13 - For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it.

2 Timothy 3:12 - Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution

1 Peter 4:12-16
12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind...

Matthew 5:10 - Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

1 Corinthians 13:3 - and though I give my body to be burned, and have not love, it profits me nothing.

Philippians 1:21 - For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Revelation 13:10 - He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Popular Common Objections:

Luke 22:36 is a popular objection because Jesus tells his disciples to buy a sword.

Here is a great article explaining this one in great detail.

Clear Bible Answers.

As for John the Baptist's silence on not telling the soldiers to quite the military in Luke 3:10-14 (Which is similar to Jesus's encounter with the Roman Centurion - Luke 7:1-10):

Check out this article here:

Did John the Baptist tell repentant soldiers to leave the military?

As for Jesus not telling the Roman Centurion not to quite the military or to do no more violence in Luke 7:1-10:

Well, you have to realize that salvation did not go out unto the Gentiles yet. They first preached the gospel to Israel first.

As for Romans 13:4 that says,

...for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

This is talking about how unbelieving authorities or nations (like a government's leaders, armies, and police) who are God's ministers to execute wrath or judgment on those who do evil. This is not talking about believers because it is telling the reader to be subject unto this higher powers (Romans 13:1). It does not tell the reader that they are these higher powers. The reader that Paul is writing to are believers (not the higher powers who are in authority whereby we are to be subject unto). In fact, God used both Assyria and Babylon to punish His people. So we can see that these nations were God's ministers of justice (Which would be in line with what is said in Romans 13).

HighwayMan said:

A number of comments in this thread continue acting as if the question is whether war in general is awesome or not.

This is not about soldiers following their king and oil money and all of that can be explained as "worldly business."

This is about Christians being massacred to the point of near extinction. Are people just not understanding this point, or do they simply not care?

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• Daniel 7:21


• Daniel 8:9-10


• Revelation 13:7a


The breaking of the 4th seal is death. This when the saints (and others) are killed for refusing the Mark of the beast.

The 5th seal are the martyred saints crying out to God for vengeance (over their being killed by the anti-christ).

The 6th seal is God's response to the saints cry for vengeance.

Within the 6th seal: Jesus will return at the last half or part of the 6th vial (or bowl) judgment. Thousands of saints will follow behind Him. Jesus will destroy all nations that will come up against Him. Nobody will survive or win against Jesus. He is GOD. The good guys will win! So nobody here is dying and staying dead as you suggest. Death is not the end; And Christ will win!

Anyways, to answer the thread question:

Is Just War ever acceptable?

If we are talking about a saint who lives out his faith under the New Covenant, then.... "no."

After a saint dies, around the time Christ returns, they will be without having a physical body still. They will follow Jesus in their spiritual bodies (similar to angels) out into battle at His 2nd Coming. Jesus will be the One who will win the battle.

For God says in His Word, Vengeance is mine, I will repay saith the Lord.
Do you believe this?

Before the New Testament or New Covenant was made: Was Just War ever acceptable then?

Yes. But we are not under the Old Covenant or Old Testament anymore. GOD did allow for the eradication of evil and pagan nations that were sinful and harmful to God's people. But today, we are called to walk a higher road. We are called to fight a spiritual battle and not a physical one. We are to pray and to love our enemies and not kill them.

HighwayMan said:

Who said anything about revenge? I'm asking about saving populations that are being massacred. Defending people is not "evil."

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Defending people using non-violence is not evil. Defending people using violence is sinful because God said vengeance is mine. Jesus said we are to pray, do good, and to love our enemies. We cannot do that if we are killing them. God is the giver and taker of life. He can stop everyone's heartbeat in an instant if He wanted to. He can stop everyone with an Earthquake or Hurricane, etc. Nothing is impossible for GOD. All things happen in this life for a reason. All things work together for good to those who love GOD.

You said:

It seems that many Christians are willing to turn their back and not hear the pleas or the concerns or the stories of their brothers and sisters in chains.

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God can release people from prison. Did you not read about Peter being released from prison by an angel?

You said:

I would not be surprised either if many of these same Christians voted for Trump and/or support his anti-refugee policies.

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Not a big Trump fan. I was strongly opposed to him becoming president. I am not happy in him as our leader. But I am commanded by God to pray, do good, and to love him (regardless of my negative feelings for him).

HighwayMan said:

Right, so if your family was being butchered in front of you, you would tell police officers "no please don't use violence" to stop the attackers, you would embrace your death and the death of your family "as Jesus" did?

I don't believe a single rational person would ever do that. That sounds more like the mindset of a suicidal death cult than a living faith.

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The police are not a hit squad. They do not shoot first and ask questions later in every call they get. They are to first try and resolve the issue peacefully if they can. God mentions how he has ministers of justice at his disposal in Romans 13. So the believer who does evil should fear because God can use the police to stop them. But just because they are being used by God does not mean they are following His will in being His disciple to the fullest extent.

A believer can prayer for protection by asking God to send His Spirit and His holy angels to protect them. Now, if God tells the angel or angels to use lethal force against anyone trying to harm a particular believer, then the person who prays for protection is not accountable for any violence the angel does that He prayed for. It is a decision that is out of his hands. Just as a Christian (who is a pacifist) can call the cops to stop a violent situation. They know that cops have in the past stopped shooters without killing them before. They also know that the police are God's ministers of justice and if God decides that nobody is going to die in that scenario or situation, then nobody will die. God can make a person's gun to jam or have a bee fly in a person's ear. Nothing is impossible for GOD. God can make a person drop their car keys preventing a person from getting into a car accident or to get into one. God is in control. You have to have faith. Believe GOD has a plan that we cannot see.

You also have to understand that,

"...all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." (2 Timothy 3:12).

We are called to live like Christ in how He lived.
We are to imitate His life in a way.
We are to suffer as Christ had suffered (See 1 Peter 4:1-2).

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There is no such thing as a just war...

Francis Drake said:

You are adding a whole load of supposition that is not backed by the text, and also is contradicted by an encounter that Jesus had with another centurion!-

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As a retired centurion, he would have held the civil Roman position of lictor, which was the ceremonial bodyguard of the provincial governor (his role was to stand beside the governor at official affairs, holding ceremonial faces). As such, he would have had a contingent of soldiers to attend him, but he himself was not an active duty soldier.

RESPONSE TO POST#77 Q: "There is no such thing as a "just war"?"

REALLY? see:

Just War Theory | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

Just war theory - Wikipedia

What Is Just War Theory?

War (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Ron Gurley said:

RESPONSE TO POST#77 Q: "There is no such thing as a "just war"?"

REALLY? see:

Just War Theory | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

Just war theory - Wikipedia

What Is Just War Theory?

War (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

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Let's put it this way--which a couple of other people already have:

There is a Just War theory, but there's never been a Just War.