Who Is Jesus?

Baby Cottontail · Sep 25, 2017

dreadnought said:
It was not my intention to state that the Father and Jesus are two different persons. I simply acknowledge I think a case can be made for it. I think a better case can be made that they ARE the same person. Here are three examples:

I and the Father are one. John 10:30 RSV

Now, as promised, John 10:30. In order to look at this verse best, we should look at it in its larger context....

John 10:27-33 (NASB)
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.

Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"

The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

Now, let's compare this to a couple other verses in the OT, and then I will explain how I understand this passage.

Deuteronomy 32:39 (NASB)
'See now that I, I am He. And there is no god besides Me; it is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal. And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

Isaiah 43:10-13 (NASB)
"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, And My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me. I, even I, am the LORD, and there is no savior besides Me. It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, and there was no strange god among you; so you are my witnesses," declares the LORD, and I am God. Even from eternity I am He, and there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?"

In both Deuteronomy 32:39 and Isaiah 43:10-13, YHWH says similar things about Himself that Jesus says about Himself and the Father.

If Jesus and the Father are both YHWH -- one God -- then by saying "I and the Father are one," He could very easily be affirming that He and the Father are both YHWH, the one and only God. They are the same Being. That is what I think Jesus is saying in John 10:27-33.

Jesus is not the Father in John 10 because He says, "the Father has given them to Me...." That would make no sense for Jesus to say unless the Father is a different Person from Him. What is true about the Father is also true of Jesus because they are the same God.

However, I do not see Jesus saying that He is the Father here. He is definitely claiming Deity (and since there is only one God, that would make Him YHWH), but He is not claiming to be the Father.

The explanation can only be made sense of if you understand what I said yesterday regarding YHWH being more than one Person, but one Being.

That is how I understand this passage. I understand why you think it suggests that Jesus is the Father, but I do not see Jesus making that case here.

1213 · Sep 25, 2017

Baby Cottontail said:
So do you believe Jesus is just a human representative of God?

I believe what the Bible tells. And according to it, Jesus is son of God and represents God on earth. It also tells that Jesus is the image of God and that God dwells in Jesus.

dreadnought · Sep 25, 2017

breathofdesire said:
Well Jesus is not in heaven in his body now, since flesh and bone do not inherit the kingdom of God.

So where is his body?

Actually, do we know for sure whether or not we have bodies in heaven?

PeaceJoyLove · Sep 25, 2017

breathofdesire said:
Well Jesus is not in heaven in his body now, since flesh and bone do not inherit the kingdom of God.

So where is his body?

Well, when the women arrived at Jesus' tomb, all they could see were his grave clothes folded up that He left behind. While Mary stood there weeping because she thought they had taken His body somewhere else, Jesus stood behind her, speaking to her.

Then in Book of Acts "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight."

dreadnought · Sep 25, 2017

Baby Cottontail said:
Okay, I don't know Greek. However, I have heard that the word that John uses that has been translated as "Word" in most English translations is the Greek word "Logos."

My study Bible states, and I have heard this elsewhere, that "Logos," was a concept that the Greeks understood. They had a specific meaning for "Logos." The Jewish people also had a specific meaning for the word "Logos." The Greek and Jewish understanding of "Logos" were not identical, but both understood the concept to mean something more than just a message. It was a term that both people could relate to.

Yes, I remember that Jesus said that heaven and earth will pass away, but that His words would remain. I don't know that that would be the same Greek word "Logos," used there. I am going to ask someone who has studied a bit of Greek for their opinion.

Mark 13:31 is one instance.
Luke 21:33 is another.
Matthew 24:35 is another.

I'm going to ask someone who knows Greek to look at the Greek used in those verses to let me know what Greek word is used for "words" there. I really doubt it will be Logos, but we will see.

At any rate, it seems from the context of John 1 that the Word is a Person, not a message. Look at how John 1 coincides with this:

Colossians 1:15-17: (NASB)
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Do you think that Colossians 1:15-17 is about the message as well?

I know from experience that the Lord's words - the things I've read in the Bible - stay in my mind. Situations crop up, and I wonder what to do, and then I remember what Jesus told us to do.

As for Colossians 1:15-17, I don't see it as a part of a conversation about the Word of God.

dreadnought · Sep 25, 2017

Baby Cottontail said:
Okay, so my friend who knows a little Greek wrote this to me when I asked him to translate Mark 13:31, Luke 21:33, and Matthew 24:35:

So, he told me that it definitely should be translated as "words" there.

He said this of John 1:1 when I asked him if it was Logos in John 1:

So...apparently what is in Mark 13:31, Luke 21:33, and Matthew 24:35 is the plural version of the same word as in John 1:1, which is singular in that instance.

So, according to him, it should definitely be Word in John 1, and words in the other passages. Although they are different versions of the same word, the singular and plural versions are definitely different, and each should definitely be rendered as it appears in our English translations.

He also showed me the whole translation for John 1:1:

When we are young, the Bible prepares us for life. But then we start living life and learning first hand. The meaning of the Bible then becomes clearer and clearer. Paul speaks on this:

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood. 1 Cor 13:12 RSV

dreadnought · Sep 25, 2017

Baby Cottontail said:
Let's look at some of these verses that you posted in support of your belief that Jesus is the Father.

I have no problem with Matthew 1:23 in my viewpoint. Since I believe that both the Father and Jesus are the one true God, YHWH, then I completely agree with Matthew 1:23. Jesus is YHWH, so He truly is God with us.

John 14:9 is a bit more tricky. This is a verse that those who hold to your position often quote. If we just stop with the verse you quoted, it does seem that a case can be made for your viewpoint that Jesus is the Father, and that the Father is Jesus. (In the same way that you acknowledge that a case can be made for two Persons when Jesus prays to the Father.)

However, if you read the surrounding verses in context (from John 14:7-15), it seems that Jesus' statement is more one of complete unity with the Father, rather stating that He is the Father.

Look at John 14:10-11: (NASB)
"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

Jesus isn't saying He IS the Father, or that the Father IS Him, although I can see how a person could interpret it that way. Again, He seems to be more talking about His unity/oneness with the Father. That's how I view John 14:9. I will say, though, that this passage is the strongest one there is in the Bible for your position.

I say that this passage shows that the Father and Jesus are so united and linked because they are both the one God, YHWH. They are the same Being but two different Persons within that one Being.

I'm going to make a whole new post to discuss your final verse because I have more to say on that particular one.

I am under the impression that my view of the Trinity is that of the traditional United Methodist view, though I'm not sure about that, and it doesn't matter to me.

But I believe God is the Father, which means he is the Creator, all-knowing, all-powerful, and motivated only by love.

Second, God is Jesus Christ - our Savior.

Third, God is the Holy Spirit. This is what I (we) call God when he is talking with us.

dreadnought · Sep 25, 2017

Baby Cottontail said:
Now, as promised, John 10:30. In order to look at this verse best, we should look at it in its larger context....

John 10:27-33 (NASB)
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.

Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"

The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

Now, let's compare this to a couple other verses in the OT, and then I will explain how I understand this passage.

Deuteronomy 32:39 (NASB)
'See now that I, I am He. And there is no god besides Me; it is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal. And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

Isaiah 43:10-13 (NASB)
"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, And My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me. I, even I, am the LORD, and there is no savior besides Me. It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, and there was no strange god among you; so you are my witnesses," declares the LORD, and I am God. Even from eternity I am He, and there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?"

In both Deuteronomy 32:39 and Isaiah 43:10-13, YHWH says similar things about Himself that Jesus says about Himself and the Father.

If Jesus and the Father are both YHWH -- one God -- then by saying "I and the Father are one," He could very easily be affirming that He and the Father are both YHWH, the one and only God. They are the same Being. That is what I think Jesus is saying in John 10:27-33.

Jesus is not the Father in John 10 because He says, "the Father has given them to Me...." That would make no sense for Jesus to say unless the Father is a different Person from Him. What is true about the Father is also true of Jesus because they are the same God.

However, I do not see Jesus saying that He is the Father here. He is definitely claiming Deity (and since there is only one God, that would make Him YHWH), but He is not claiming to be the Father.

The explanation can only be made sense of if you understand what I said yesterday regarding YHWH being more than one Person, but one Being.

That is how I understand this passage. I understand why you think it suggests that Jesus is the Father, but I do not see Jesus making that case here.

I think it would be an asset if you learned to make your case with fewer words.

com7fy8 · Sep 25, 2017

dreadnought said:
There are those, like me, who believe Jesus is God in flesh. Others believe he is the Son of God, a separate being.

It is like how mankind has more than one person > father, child, and mother. God is the same Being as our Father and His Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit. God made man in His image, and man is more than one person plus the persons are family persons, which can help to feed us how "God is love" (in 1 John 4:8&16) and such love is family caring and sharing love. We keep seeing in our Scriptures how God commands us to relate and share in a family love way. He in us has us growing in His family loving way; He Himself in us makes us able to love the way He desires > He does not use some second-best being to get what He wants, in us >

Romans 5:5 >

So, God as love is personal with each of us His children. God is not only a scholastic item of logic and philosophy and theory to explain, or to say we can't explain, but God is loving and personal. But people can treat Him like He is distant and more for believing and arguing, than for personally submitting to Him and sharing with Him (Colossians 3:15). So, in case someone's approach is impersonal, the person can not share and relate with God and can miss out.

So, we can argue all sorts of things, but no arguing can make us able to escape God or to find Him.

dreadnought said:
Some might argue you can't be the Son of God and God in flesh at the same time.

Like I say, there are plenty of arguers with different ideas. But, most of all, God is being personal with each of us (James 4:6-7, 1 Peter 5:5), right now, whether we experience this or not.

Jesus is growing in each of us God's children, right now. So, yes Jesus can be in the flesh . . . in our bodies ! ! ! Galatians 4:19

And Jesus is God in us, not some second-best being or blessing, but God who is love is sharing His very own best of everything with each of us, as much as we grow in His love. And it is possible to live real love in a human body. God in us and our bodies has us growing and succeeding

Plus, God has created human bodies and He is in these bodies, keeping them functioning as well as they do. So, God being in a human body as Jesus is fine with Him

Baby Cottontail · Sep 25, 2017

dreadnought said:
I know from experience that the Lord's words - the things I've read in the Bible - stay in my mind. Situations crop up, and I wonder what to do, and then I remember what Jesus told us to do.

As for Colossians 1:15-17, I don't see it as a part of a conversation about the Word of God.

John 1:3 (this is talking about the Word) (NASB):
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Colossians 1:16 (NASB):
For by Him all things were created, both in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Can you see the connection between John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16 now? They seem to be both saying the same thing.

I am not trying to bring doubt about what Jesus has said to you throughout your life. John chapter 1 has nothing to do with these words.

John 1 is about the Word becoming flesh and dwelling among us.

Baby Cottontail · Sep 25, 2017

dreadnought said:
When we are young, the Bible prepares us for life. But then we start living life and learning first hand. The meaning of the Bible then becomes clearer and clearer. Paul speaks on this:

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood. 1 Cor 13:12 RSV

While we do grow in our faith and learn more about the Bible as we grow, every Scripture passage does have an intended meaning.

Every book in the Bible was addressed to someone or to a group of people, and was written for a reason. All Scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Since all Scripture has intended meaning, we need to consider the context of a given verse and a given passage. It is located in a chapter and in a book of the Bible. It is there for a reason.

It doesn't just mean whatever applies to our lives.

By the context of John chapter 1, the Word = Jesus.

Personal experience does not trump the clear meaning of Scripture in its given context.

Baby Cottontail · Sep 25, 2017

dreadnought said:
I am under the impression that my view of the Trinity is that of the traditional United Methodist view, though I'm not sure about that, and it doesn't matter to me.

But I believe God is the Father, which means he is the Creator, all-knowing, all-powerful, and motivated only by love.

Second, God is Jesus Christ - our Savior.

Third, God is the Holy Spirit. This is what I (we) call God when he is talking with us.

Well, good question. Let's go to the official United Methodist Church website to check.
The Articles of Religion of the Methodist Church - The United Methodist Church

I will quote pertinent parts to our discussion, and italicize what I want to emphasize:
Article I — Of Faith in the Holy Trinity
There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body or parts, of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things, both visible and invisible. And in unity of this Godhead there are three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

Article II — Of the Word, or Son of God,
Who Was Made Very Man
The Son, who is the Word of the Father, the very and eternal God, of one substance with the Father, took man's nature in the womb of the blessed Virgin; so that two whole and perfect natures, that is to say, the Godhead and Manhood, were joined together in one person, never to be divided; whereof is one Christ, very God and very Man, who truly suffered, was crucified, dead, and buried, to reconcile his Father to us, and to be a sacrifice, not only for original guilt, but also for actual sins of men.

Article IV — Of the Holy Ghost
The Holy Ghost, proceeding from the Father and the Son, is of one substance, majesty, and glory with the Father and the Son, very and eternal God.

There is another article off the UMC site that I will quote. But I will post this one for now.

Baby Cottontail · Sep 25, 2017

dreadnought said:
I am under the impression that my view of the Trinity is that of the traditional United Methodist view, though I'm not sure about that, and it doesn't matter to me.

But I believe God is the Father, which means he is the Creator, all-knowing, all-powerful, and motivated only by love.

Second, God is Jesus Christ - our Savior.

Third, God is the Holy Spirit. This is what I (we) call God when he is talking with us.

The second article can be found here, and is also off the official UMC website:
Our Christian Roots: God - The United Methodist Church

Again, I will italicize the parts that I want to emphasize, which are especially pertinent to our discussion:

Who God is
When we say the Apostles' Creed, we join with millions of Christians through the ages in an understanding of God as a Trinity—three persons in one: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God, who is one, is revealed in three distinct persons. "God in three persons, blessed Trinity" is one way of speaking about the several ways we experience God.

Baby Cottontail · Sep 25, 2017

dreadnought said:
I am under the impression that my view of the Trinity is that of the traditional United Methodist view, though I'm not sure about that, and it doesn't matter to me.

But I believe God is the Father, which means he is the Creator, all-knowing, all-powerful, and motivated only by love.

Second, God is Jesus Christ - our Savior.

Third, God is the Holy Spirit. This is what I (we) call God when he is talking with us.

What you could also do is ask your pastor to help you understand the official United Methodist viewpoint regarding the trinity.

Now, I will say this, just because the UMC officially believes in the trinity (as defined as one God in three Persons), that does not mean that all UMC pastors teach it or believe in it. Trust me on this. I know several people who became UMC pastors who do not believe in the Trinity. Most of them who deny the Trinity would be Unitarians -- believe that only the Father is God and denying Jesus' deity as well as the Holy Spirit's.

I don't know what your pastor believes, so that is why I am suggesting asking your pastor to help you understand the official UMC belief about God.

I have not personally heard of anyone in the UMC who holds to your view about Jesus being the Father, but I am sure that there are others in the UMC besides you who do believe in that doctrine.

Most people who hold to your viewpoint that I know of are in a Oneness Pentecostal church. Oneness Pentecostalism - Wikipedia
You do not hold all the viewpoints that they do, and your views differ from them on some things, such as how you view the Word in John 1. However, the basic teaching that Jesus is the Father is what Oneness Pentecostals would be in full agreement with you on.

Baby Cottontail · Sep 25, 2017

dreadnought said:
I think it would be an asset if you learned to make your case with fewer words.

Sorry, I can try to shorten my posts for you. I just want to be as clear as possible to avoid confusion, and explain things as well as I can.

Do you need me to condense down my Deuteronomy/Isaiah/John 10 argument, or did you understand what I was saying in my long post?

Baby Cottontail · Sep 25, 2017

dreadnought said:
For me this is an extremely long post, but you asked several questions.

I and the Father are one. John 10:30 RSV

I don't know if you read my previous post. It might have been too long? So I am going to try to shorten it up for you. Please let me know if it is more digestible:

John 10:27-33 (NASB)
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

Deuteronomy 32:39 (NASB)
'See now that I, I am He. And there is no god besides Me; it is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal. And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

Isaiah 43:13 (NASB)
Even from eternity I am He, and there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?"

In both Deuteronomy 32:39 and Isaiah 43:10-13, YHWH says similar things about Himself that Jesus says about Himself and the Father.

In John 10, Jesus is affirming that He and the Father are both YHWH, the one and only God. They are the same Being.

Jesus is not the Father in John 10 because He says, "the Father has given them to Me...." The Father is a different Person from Him. What is true about the Father is also true of Jesus because they are the same God.

Jesus is not claiming to be the Father.

dreadnought · Sep 25, 2017

Baby Cottontail said:
Sorry, I can try to shorten my posts for you. I just want to be as clear as possible to avoid confusion, and explain things as well as I can.

Do you need me to condense down my Deuteronomy/Isaiah/John 10 argument, or did you understand what I was saying in my long post?

It might be good to condense your last several posts. However, I am curious if you've thought about Matthew 4:17. I think it's an important passage.

Baby Cottontail · Sep 25, 2017

dreadnought said:
It might be good to condense your last several posts. However, I am curious if you've thought about Matthew 4:17. I think it's an important passage.

As in last several posts, do you mean all the posts today, or specifically, which ones?

Some of them from yesterday, too?

Is it that you are having a hard time following them because of the number of words?

Or that you prefer reading shorter posts?

Are you reading this on your phone, tablet, or computer?

What about Matthew 4:17 do you want me to talk about? I'm unclear why you're asking me about it.

toLiJC · Sep 25, 2017

dreadnought said:
There are those, like me, who believe Jesus is God in flesh. Others believe he is the Son of God, a separate being.

This scripture would seem to suggest that I am right:

"Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son,
and his name shall be called Emmanuel"
(which means, God with us). Matt 1:23 RSV

However, I suspect there is biblical evidence that I am wrong.

What do you think?

the only begotten firstborn Son of God the Father, the Lord(Christ) Himself

Blessings

GosDontez · Sep 26, 2017

Baby Cottontail said:
I believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all the same God.

I do not believe in a separate Father God, a Son God, and a Holy Spirit God.

Does that help, or is that confusing things more for you?

For now, yes. It's confusing and I think I'm beginning to understand why.

So many Christians with so many opposing views on Christianity, who's got clarity on this?

Therefore, I will cast this care upon the Lord Jesus and leave this alone.

That is all.

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