Does the Orthodox Church teach.....

Light of the East said:

a theology of suffering to expiate the sins of others?

I made a comment to my priest last week about dying in one's sleep as being "the kiss of God upon a soul with whom He is well pleased."

My priest responded that he would rather have a long death and some suffering that he could "offer up for others."

And now I'm scratching my head.....

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no, it really doesn't work that way. our sufferings are a part of God's plan for salvation, but how that affects others we might not know til Judgment Day.

I'm not aware of any official teaching of suffering to expiation the sins of others, other than Christ himself (Matt 8:17).

With that said I believe there is a pious opinion amongst many that a sincere Christian who suffers in the flesh and perseveres is wrestling with a spiritual warfare on behalf of others close to them who are stronger in body but weaker in the spirit. Is this what 1 Peter 4:1 is implying? Is this why scripture says the sins of the father is visited to the third or fourth generation (Numbers 14:18-20)? What does Paul mean in Colossians 1:24 , or Hebrews 13:3. Can 1 Corinthians 12:23-25 imply this belief? I don't know. Perhaps humans would like to think there is something deeper in unjust suffering or perhaps human experience is telling us there is.

I looked this up, and actually found a thread on it, or at least very similar.

Mortification

In the thread there is a video that was posted by an EO member:

I have never heard of "offering up suffering" for the sake of others in the way the Catholics speak of it.

However, this does put me in mind of St. Nikolai Velimrovich's writing on the Our Father. I read this as a catechumen and am STILL thinking about it, lol. I suppose as the years go by, it makes much more sense. But there's more there than I understand yet, I'm sure of it. I may never understand all the depths of it.

Begin quote ---

Behold, all our sins are common, and we all are responsible for the sins of all. Therefore, there are not on earth pure righteous men. For all the righteous must take upon themselves some of the sins of the sinners. It is difficult to be an immaculately righteous man, because there is no righteous one who does not bear upon his back at least one sinner. But how is it, O Father – give me to understand how it is that the more a righteous man bears the sinners’ sins, the more righteous he is?

Our Heavenly Father, who art sending bread from morning to evening to all Thy children and art receiving their sins in payment, make less heavy the burden of the righteous ones, and illumine the darkness of sinners.

------- end


I have not asked yet, but I want to know ... is this a conscious thing we can choose, and how is it done? Is it more than continually praying for the sins of someone?

Light of the East said:

So there is a place for suffering in God's plan for us, but it isn't exactly necessary, if I understand you correctly.

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I wouldn't say that, I wouldn't say either way, I just think his approach is wrong. we should not ask God to suffer to save others, but ask His aide for our own salvation. and that way, maybe the sufferings and blessings He gives and allows will help others

Light of the East said:

But I'm not talking about self-mortification. I'm speaking of the mindset that sufferings which God permits into our lives should be embraced as having salvific value for others.

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Frankly that seems to be based on the same foundation as the Catholic ideas of merits and the necessity of temporal punishment?

I think there are things we can do, ways we can be used, in the salvation of others. But I think it's a more organic thing, maybe something that can't be codified at all.

But it sounds like this idea you ask about first credits "suffering" as being a kind of currency used in the attainment of salvation, and further allows us to "pay" it on the behalf of others. More measured, created (western) grace, I think.

God can certainly USE suffering we go through in a salvific way, by working though it to humble us, perhaps, and/or to remind us to rely on Him, to show us comfort received from Him, and in any other number of ways.

But it's not like he "owes" us a particular measure of "salvation" in payment for a particular degree of suffering, which we can then "apply to the account" of whoever we choose. That's the impression I get from the "offering up of suffering on someone's behalf" when I hear Catholics mention it.

~Anastasia~ said:

Frankly that seems to be based on the same foundation as the Catholic ideas of merits and the necessity of temporal punishment?

I think there are things we can do, ways we can be used, in the salvation of others. But I think it's a more organic thing, maybe something that can't be codified at all.

But it sounds like this idea you ask about first credits "suffering" as being a kind of currency used in the attainment of salvation, and further allows us to "pay" it on the behalf of others. More measured, created (western) grace, I think.

God can certainly USE suffering we go through in a salvific way, by working though it to humble us, perhaps, and/or to remind us to rely on Him, to show us comfort received from Him, and in any other number of ways.

But it's not like he "owes" us a particular measure of "salvation" in payment for a particular degree of suffering, which we can then "apply to the account" of whoever we choose. That's the impression I get from the "offering up of suffering on someone's behalf" when I hear Catholics mention it.

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If it's ok to clarify...

Catholics don't believe that grace itself is created, rather that the occasion of grace is created that's in Thomistic theology... the offering up of suffering is seen as having merit only in union with the Cross, not in itself... like how St Paul talked about contributing to what is "missing" in Christ's Passion (ie our participation). The suffering is like a prayer that God uses in His Mercy to help His grace from the Cross to be applied in a particular situation, kind of like how we intercede for others, only here we suffer instead of saying particular prayers.. that's my understanding of the Catholic perspective anyway

edit: regarding created/uncreated grace, it's a bit more complicated, but this is what I mean: https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=36982

Maryslittleflower said:

If it's ok to clarify...

Catholics don't believe that grace itself is created, rather that the occasion of grace is created that's in Thomistic theology... the offering up of suffering is seen as having merit only in union with the Cross, not in itself... like how St Paul talked about contributing to what is "missing" in Christ's Passion (ie our participation). The suffering is like a prayer that God uses in His Mercy to help His grace from the Cross to be applied in a particular situation, kind of like how we intercede for others, only here we suffer instead of saying particular prayers.. that's my understanding of the Catholic perspective anyway

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Unfortunately this isn't the place to discuss Catholic theology, but the teaching of merits and indulgences - which involve measured "amounts" of grace, seem to necessarily imply that grace is a created "thing".

I wouldn't mind discussing it in more detail, but we need a thread in St. Justin's perhaps. I don't want to derail the OPs thread and end up with it needing to be shut down or otherwise moderated.

Would you like to start one there?

Sure, a thread could be started.. no problem

Light of the East said:

But I'm not talking about self-mortification. I'm speaking of the mindset that sufferings which God permits into our lives should be embraced as having salvific value for others.

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Ok gotcha. I thought that's what the priest was getting at. Him wanting to suffer more by choice, but I suppose in the case of death...he'd rather have the lot of suffering fall in him from God.