Is it big news when the liberal Lutherans say the early Church was wrong on sex? Why not?

You certainly understand that there are Anglican groups in the US and throughout the world that do not support "liberal" views of morality. The Global South arguably includes the majority of the world's Anglicans. Their US province is ACNA. Few would accuse these organizations of being liberal.

As far as Lutherans worldwide (WLF) are concerned, they are indeed a liberal Church (ELCA is the member in the US). ELCA does in fact have intercommunion (and more) agreements with many US churches including Episcopal and Methodist. Of course, there are more conservative Lutheran churches in the US and in Europe.

I would note that the Vatican does not seem to share your view of the Lutheran Church. Pope Benedict spend decades studying Luther. The Vatican and Lutherans has spent decades discussing and praying about the various issues, with many joint declarations, most importantly on justification in 1999. We shall see what the Vatican says in October as we approach the 500th anniversary of the Reformation.

Sean611 said:

I would say what the mainline churches (and their counterparts in Europe and everywhere else) have done in regards to flushing the Bible and their own doctrines down the toilet is a big deal. These actions muddle the faithful Christian witness and they make it that much harder for Christians who remain loyal to Scripture and to the teachings of the church on these matters. It must be said though, that these heresies, or whatever one wants to call them, are a result of these church bodies jettisoning their own doctrine and Scripture. What comes from this departure is simply a symptom of this truth.

I just wish these mainline churches would be honest in who and what they are. They should form one United mainline church and drop the denominational qualifiers (Episcopal/Anglican, Lutheran, etc.). I left the Episcopal Church when it became almost impossible to remain a faithful Anglican. Leadership largely just doesn't care about the canons, constitution, practice, or doctrines of the church anymore. After all, we can't let any of that 'Anglican' stuff get in the way of our modern sensibility and the fact that we are right! <sarcasm>

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mark46 said:

You certainly understand that there are Anglican groups in the US and throughout the world that do not support "liberal" views of morality. The Global South arguably includes the majority of the world's Anglicans. Their US province is ACNA. Few would accuse these organizations of being liberal.

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Of course, I was an Episcopalian for 5 years and I'm aware of splits/controversies among Anglicans. I mean Episcopal for the US and those who refer to their church as Anglican, but follow a mainline theology. Certainly continuing Anglicans and those of the Anglican re-alignment don't fall into that category.

As far as Lutherans worldwide (WLF) are concerned, they are indeed a liberal Church (ELCA is the member in the US). ELCA does in fact have intercommunion (and more) agreements with many US churches including Episcopal and Methodist. Of course, there are more conservative Lutheran churches in the US and in Europe.

I would note that the Vatican does not seem to share your view of the Lutheran Church. Pope Benedict spend decades studying Luther. The Vatican and Lutherans has spent decades discussing and praying about the various issues, with many joint declarations, most importantly on justification in 1999. We shall see what the Vatican says in October as we approach the 500th anniversary of the Reformation.

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I don't share that view of the Lutheran Church (I am a candidate for confirmation in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod), just mainly the mainline Lutherans and many of those in the WLF. The steps taken by the Vatican to reach out to Lutherans is great, but notice that these declarations are avoiding women priests and marriage. Any convergence shared in previous joint declarations will stop dead in its tracks when it comes to time to discuss these issues.

It should be noted that the RCC has reached out to the confessional International Lutheran Council and the ILC has responded very favorably to the overtures by our Catholic brothers and sisters. The Missouri Synod Lutheran President Pastor Matthew Harrison is also participating in a joint public discussion of the reformation with the Catholic bishop of Chicago and an evangelical theologian. Furthermore, a Missouri Synod district honored the Archbishop of Milwaukee (I believe it was Milwaukee) with a defending religious liberty award that was accepted in person by the Archbishop at the district convention. The ice has been thawing rapidly between confessional Lutherans and the RCC and I believe that any serious talks between the RCC and Lutherans is going to be with confessional Lutherans.

So, you think that the discussions for the past 30 years between the RCC and WLF has been non-serious? Cardinal Ratzinger's efforts (Pope Benedict) were non-serious?

I guess we'll see a bit more next month. I suspect that there may steps taken toward inter-communion; or not.

We differ a bit. I consider convergence on issues such as justification and corruption during the time of the Reformation to be critical.

You seem to believe that the issues of women priests and marriage are more critical. This seems to be consistent with the US differences between ELCA and LCMS.

Sean611 said:

The ice has been thawing rapidly between confessional Lutherans and the RCC and I believe that any serious talks between the RCC and Lutherans is going to be with confessional Lutherans.

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mark46 said:

So, you think that the discussions for the past 30 years between the RCC and WLF has been non-serious? Cardinal Ratzinger's efforts (Pope Benedict) were non-serious?

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Absolutely I think they have been serious, but the RCC/WLF will hit some major stumbling blocks. I am also very heartened and I mentioned Pope Benedict's comments about the Augsburg Confession in a Lutheran section on this forum (which you read and commented on).

I guess we'll see a bit more next month. I suspect that there may steps taken toward inter-communion; or not.

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The fact that they are talking and working together is awesome, but it is also naive to think more of these discussion than what they are. Inter-communion would only happen if the two groups come to agreement on the reformation doctrinal issues and if the RCC enters into full communion with a group of which 80% ordains women priests and has provinces that approve and perform gay marriages. I mean come on, inter-communion isn't just around the corner, but I applaud the effort on both sides.

We differ a bit. I consider convergence on issues such as justification and corruption during the time of the Reformation to be critical.

You seem to believe that the issues of women priests and marriage are more critical. This seems to be consistent with the US differences between ELCA and LCMS.

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Convergence is great, but it isn't doctrinal agreement and there is MUCH work to be done on those issues before even tackling women priests/bishops and marriage. I don't think gay marriage and women priests are more critical, but it is a symptom of a much larger issue. I am not trying to be a Debbie downer at all, just being realistic.

My perspective is that many agreements have already been made on many issues, including justification and the Eucharist. The effort is not to have one Church body. The effort is to come to common understandings and to receive communion together. I don't think the issues of the definitions of the sacraments of marriage and holy orders will prevent this from happening. It certainly doesn't seem that the participants think this to be the case.
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See below for an excerpt for the 2015 "Declaration On the Way" to Full Unity

From the last paragraph below, "It also suggests that the expansion of opportunities for Lutherans and Catholics to receive Holy Communion together would be a sign of the agreements already reached."

At the heart of the document are 32 "Statements of Agreement" where Lutherans and Catholics already have points of convergence on topics about church, ministry and Eucharist. These agreements signal that Catholics and Lutherans are indeed 'on the way' to full, visible unity. As 2017 approaches, the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, this witness to growing unity gives a powerful message to a world where conflict and division often seem to drown out more positive messages of hope and reconciliation The document also indicates differences still remaining between Lutherans and Catholics and indicates possible ways forward.

In October both the ELCA Conference of Bishops—an advisory body of the church—and the Committee on Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) received and unanimously affirmed the 32 Agreements. ELCA bishops requested that the ELCA Church Council accept them and forward the entire document to the 2016 ELCA Churchwide Assembly, the denomination's highest legislative body.

The document seeks reception of the Statement of Agreements from The Lutheran World Federation (LWF) and the Vatican's Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity (PCPCU). The LWF is a global communion of 145 churches in 98 countries worldwide. The ELCA is the communion's only member church from the United States.

The conclusion invites the PCPCU and the LWF to create a process and timetable for addressing the remaining issues. It also suggests that the expansion of opportunities for Lutherans and Catholics to receive Holy Communion together would be a sign of the agreements already reached. The Declaration also seeks a commitment to deeper connection at the local level for Catholics and Lutherans.

That's interesting. I thought the ELCA did not have an official doctrine on sexuality, or took a stance.

RileyG said:

That's interesting. I thought the ELCA did not have an official doctrine on sexuality, or took a stance.

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The ELCA has taken the stance that they are divided and that their parishioners are free to believe different things with regard to same-sex sexuality, marriage and ordination.