Can you be sinless??!

One Of The Elect

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We are not perfect beings though, we follow Christ and turn away from sin, that does not free us from sinning again. What you are suggesting is when we follow Christ, we become perfect which matches this heresy.

Pelagianism is the belief that original sin did not taint human nature and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without special divine aid. This theological theory is named after the British monk Pelagius (354–420 or 440), although he denied, at least at some point in his life, many of the doctrines associated with his name. Pelagius was identified as an Irishman by Saint Jerome.[1] Pelagius taught that the human will, as created with its abilities by God, was sufficient to live a sinless life, although he believed that God's grace assisted every good work. Pelagianism has come to be identified with the view (whether taught by Pelagius or not) that human beings can earn salvation by their own efforts.

We are not talking about Palagianism. We are talking about redemption through Christ who crushed the head of the serpent. And in Him we are saved. Through baptism we are cleansed from original sin and through the application of Christ teachings we become perfect.The Holy Spirit comes upon us are we are holy. We do not stay in a perpetual state of original sin. To believe that -is to( not) believe what Christ did.
That is heresy.
 
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Targaryen

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From the 39 Articles from the Anglican Church:

Original Sin standeth not in the following of Adam, (as the Pelagians do vainly talk); but it is the fault and corruption of the Nature of every man, that naturally is ingendered of the offspring of Adam; whereby man is very far gone from original righteousness, and is of his own nature inclined to evil, so that the flesh lusteth always contrary to the spirit; and therefore in every person born into this world, it deserveth God's wrath and damnation. And this infection of nature doth remain, yea in them that are regenerated; whereby the lust of the flesh, called in the Greek, Φρονεμα σαρκος, which some do expound the wisdom, some sensuality, some the affection, some the desire, of the flesh, is not subject to the Law of God. And although there is no condemnation for them that believe and are baptized, yet the Apostle doth confess, that concupiscence and lust hath of itself the nature of sin.

Most churches and all Christians in this forum believe this and yet you claim we're still not under the conditiion that Original Sin is about. That IS Heresy.
 
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Neostarwcc

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.
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Matthew5:48 'You, therefore must be perfect , as your heavenly Father is perfect." What does this mean? Is this a heresy?1 John 3:2 ' Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as he is. " Is this scripture heresy too? Rev14:5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are spotless." Is this heresy?

When our Lord said "Be perfect" he was telling us the requirements to get into heaven. To get into heaven we DO have to be perfect & sinless. But how can this be? We are far from perfect and sinless! Our Lord knows this and don't worry! He's come up with a plan! Our Lord accomplishes this with the power of the Holy Spirit. You see, when we are born again our spirit becomes sinless which allows our spirits entry into heaven when we die. And on the last day Jesus will make our bodies sinless when he resurrects all believers. I hope this answers your question.
 
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~Anastasia~

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  • Do not teach or promote sinless perfectionism.
From the Statement of Purpose for General Theology (the umbrella that Traditional Theology falls under. - Statement of Purpose - General Theology Statement of Purpose


Also, PLEASE READ THE STATEMENT OF PURPOSE FOR TRADITIONAL THEOLOGY. Statement of Purpose - Traditional Theology Statement of Purpose - particularly to understand the Definition of Traditional Christianity.

I have asked already once in this thread and been ignored. Until/unless the thread is moved from Traditional Theology, PLEASE OBEY THE RULES OF THIS FORUM AREA.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask.

Thank you.
 
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joshua 1 9

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The answer is no, and to believe that we can is heresy.
Perhaps to say no is heresy. Usually people are guilty of what they want to accuse others of. The question is: what sin can we not be cleansed of? Clearly Moses tells us to choose the way of life not death and destruction.

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

The Narrow Gate
Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets. 13 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.…
 
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Catherineanne

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Perhaps to say no is heresy. Usually people are guilty of what they want to accuse others of. The question is: what sin can we not be cleansed of? Clearly Moses tells us to choose the way of life not death and destruction.

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

The Narrow Gate
Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets. 13 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.…

Nope. The Pelagian heresy is clearly defined. Did you miss the link?

Here is another:

Pelagianism - Wikipedia
 
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~Anastasia~

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I'm guessing it may be that what is being promoted in some posts (I have not read all) is "imputed righteousness" as in the idea that God looks at humans and is blind to their sin, seeing only Christ.

That is rather a particular interpretation. It becomes a problem if it is used to deny the teaching that we are to really and truly pursue righteousness as far as we are able (and we are NOT perfectly able).

But either we need to begin communicating and understanding one another, or the thread will have to be moved or shut down.

Actual expectation of sinless perfectionism in thought, word, and deed while in the flesh may NOT be promoted in GT or TT, and is not a Traditional Christian doctrine.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Nope. The Pelagian heresy is clearly defined. Did you miss the link?

Here is another
Pelagianism - Wikipedia
Never heard of him. I mostly go by the teachings of John Wesley although even when he was still alive the Methodist Church was getting away from his teachings.
 
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Targaryen

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Never heard of him. I mostly go by the teachings of John Wesley although even when he was still alive the Methodist Church was getting away from his teachings.

Perhaps then you should read TT's SoP's before deciding to post here.and two things you should know if you claim to be Methodist:

1) John Wesley never left the Church of England/the Anglican church while he lived, Methodism he felt was always compatible with the Anglican church.

2) Wesleyan Arminianism is not comparable with Pelagianism.

Arminius believed that even after the fall of humankind, all persons had the responsibility (by God's prevenient grace) to accept Jesus Christ and thus be saved. The second point of Arminianism declares conditional election. Arminius states that the choosing of the elect is based upon the foreknowledge of God as to who would believe; a person's "act of faith" was seen as the condition for salvation. It is this choosing by God's grace to accept Jesus Christ that elects one to inherit salvation. Thus, salvation is made to occur initially by God's prevenient grace and then one's free will, and only then is one chosen to be saved. Third, Arminianism explains that redemption is based on the fact that God loves everyone, that Christ was sacrificed for all, and that the Father's will is that no one perish. The crucifixion of Christ satisfied God's wrath, provided the means by which forgiveness can occur, and Christ's resurrection enables the forgiven to inherit life. However, once again, one must choose Christ in order to be saved. Hence Christ died for every person who has lived and will ever live, but only those that freely choose to follow Jesus are elected unto salvation. Fourth, the idea of Obstructable Grace states that since God does desire all persons to be saved, God sent the Holy Spirit to encourage and persuade all people to Christ. Yet, again because of free will, one may choose to reject salvation and thus resist God's will. God wills all people to be saved and worship God in spirit and in truth, but has sovereignly chosen to provide humankind with free will to freely choose to accept or reject Jesus. And finally, the practical idea that follows is that one may fall from grace; since it is one's will to accept Christ and be saved, a person may either continue in salvation and persevere in the faith or choose to voluntarily reject Christ and fall away from the faith.
 
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Catherineanne

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Never heard of him. I mostly go by the teachings of John Wesley although even when he was still alive the Methodist Church was getting away from his teachings.

John Wesley was not a Pelagian. He was a Christian.

Let me make this quite clear; the two are NOT the same.

We all strive with God's Grace to follow the Lord's example and become conformed to his image. NONE of us actually manages to achieve his perfection, no matter how hard we try.
 
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joshua 1 9

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John Wesley was not a Pelagian. He was a Christian.
I am not following the teachings of Pelagian, I am a student of the teachings of John Wesley. Do you have a problem with that? Do you disagree with the Methodist Church and their teachings? Actually my wife has been a Methodist all her life. I joined the church after we got married.
 
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joshua 1 9

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1) John Wesley never left the Church of England/the Anglican church while he lived, Methodism he felt was always compatible with the Anglican church.
Before I joined the Methodist Church I was a member of the Episcopal Church. So I know a little bit about what the Anglican Church believes. When you join the Episcopal Church the Bishop attends and prays as he lays on hands. This is considered to be a part of Apostolic secession.

"Apostolic succession is the method whereby the ministry of the Christian Church is held to be derived from the apostles by a continuous succession, which has usually been associated with a claim that the succession is through a series of bishops."
 
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Targaryen

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Before I joined the Methodist Church I was a member of the Episcopal Church. So I know a little bit about what the Anglican Church believes. When you join the Episcopal Church the Bishop attends and prays as he lays on hands. This is considered to be a part of Apostolic secession.

"Apostolic succession is the method whereby the ministry of the Christian Church is held to be derived from the apostles by a continuous succession, which has usually been associated with a claim that the succession is through a series of bishops."

That's great, but you kinda missed or didn't want to acknowledge the part about Wesleyian Arminianism
 
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Danthemailman

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"Apostolic succession is the method whereby the ministry of the Christian Church is held to be derived from the apostles by a continuous succession, which has usually been associated with a claim that the succession is through a series of bishops."
...
 
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I was taught about apostolic succession many years ago in the Roman Catholic church <edit>

Welcome to Traditional Theology.

I have posted several requests in this thread already asking posters to read and abide by the Statement of Purpose. I realize you are relatively new, but your post is in direct violation.

Please edit it. Thank you.

~Anastasia~
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Danthemailman

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Welcome to Traditional Theology.

I have posted several requests in this thread already asking posters to read and abide by the Statement of Purpose. I realize you are relatively new, but your post is in direct violation.

Please edit it. Thank you.

~Anastasia~
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Is posting a link in violation? How do you completely delete a post? I have not found that option yet.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Is posting a link in violation? How do you completely delete a post? I have not found that option yet.

No, posting a link (as long as it's not something you're trying to sell) isn't a violation. And you can't remove your posts, but you can edit them. If a poster wants to remove a post entirely, they usually edit it down to a single dot.

The violation has to do with the content. This forum is Traditional Theology, which if you will read the Statement of Purpose, is dedicated to those who adhere to Holy Tradition in some form. Speaking against Apostolic Succession is in opposition to nearly all of those groups, and could be seen as an attempt to prove Tradition wrong, which cannot be done here. It can be posted in General Theology though.

Statement of Purpose - Traditional Theology Statement of Purpose

When in doubt, most forums have a Statement of Purpose as a sticky above the regular posts. Those will explain any rules and restrictions of the forum you post in. Most people find a few favorite forums and know their purpose, so it isn't as complicated as it sounds. Feel free to ask if you have any questions.

I hope that helps.
 
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Danthemailman

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No, posting a link (as long as it's not something you're trying to sell) isn't a violation. And you can't remove your posts, but you can edit them. If a poster wants to remove a post entirely, they usually edit it down to a single dot.

The violation has to do with the content. This forum is Traditional Theology, which if you will read the Statement of Purpose, is dedicated to those who adhere to Holy Tradition in some form. Speaking against Apostolic Succession is in opposition to nearly all of those groups, and could be seen as an attempt to prove Tradition wrong, which cannot be done here. It can be posted in General Theology though.

Statement of Purpose - Traditional Theology Statement of Purpose

When in doubt, most forums have a Statement of Purpose as a sticky above the regular posts. Those will explain any rules and restrictions of the forum you post in. Most people find a few favorite forums and know their purpose, so it isn't as complicated as it sounds. Feel free to ask if you have any questions.

I hope that helps.
I edited my post. Sorry, didn't mean to break the rules. Thank you for the clarification. :oldthumbsup:
 
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