Eternal vs conditional security, or OSAS vs LOS

FreeGrace2 · Jun 12, 2017

Marvin Knox said:
Predestination does not mean that God chooses who will believe - (at least in Reformed theology).

I base my comment about God choosing who will believe on reformed doctrine of election. Since reformed election is about God choosing who to save, and since the Bible says that one must believe to be saved, reformed theology claims regeneration by God's choice naturally leads one to believe.

So you see, the foundation for reformed election to salvation (which I disagree) is that God chooses who will believe.

Election mean that God chooses who will believe.

No, election is God choosing for service, not salvation.

I studied all 3 related Greek words translated either "choose", "chosen" or "choice", as noun, verb and adjective.

In the entire list in the NT where the adjective is used, not one case of being chosen for salvation occurred. In fact, I found 6 groups, categories, or kinds. Not sure what word is best to use. I'll just list the 6:
1. Jesus Christ. Isa 42:1, Matt 12:18, Luke 9:35, 23:35, 1 Pet 2:6
2. elect angels. 1 Tim 5:21
3. nation of Israel. Amos 3:2, Deut 7:6
4. NT believers. Eph 1:4
5. All 12 original apostles, including Judas. John 6:70 He was never saved.
6. Paul. Acts 9:15, 1 Tim 1:12

None of this list was chosen for salvation. But all of them were chosen, according to the Bible. So, what were they chosen for? Service, each and every one of them, including Judas.

Notice these verses that show that Jesus Christ was chosen for service:
Jesus Christ is The Chosen One:

1 Pet 2:6 - For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

Isa 42:1 - “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.

Luke 9:35 - A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.”

Luke 23:35 - The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, “He saved others; let him save himself if he is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.”

Acts 17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Now, notice these verses that show that Paul was chosen for service as well:
Paul was elected to service:

Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

Acts 22:10 - "'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. "'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.’

Acts 26:16 - ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me.

1 Tim 1:12 - I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service.

Marvin Knox · Jun 12, 2017

FreeGrace2 said:
I base my comment about God choosing who will believe on reformed doctrine of election. Since reformed election is about God choosing who to save, and since the Bible says that one must believe to be saved, reformed theology claims regeneration by God's choice naturally leads one to believe.

So you see, the foundation for reformed election to salvation (which I disagree) is that God chooses who will believe.

No, election is God choosing for service, not salvation.

I studied all 3 related Greek words translated either "choose", "chosen" or "choice", as noun, verb and adjective.

In the entire list in the NT where the adjective is used, not one case of being chosen for salvation occurred. In fact, I found 6 groups, categories, or kinds. Not sure what word is best to use. I'll just list the 6:
1. Jesus Christ. Isa 42:1, Matt 12:18, Luke 9:35, 23:35, 1 Pet 2:6
2. elect angels. 1 Tim 5:21
3. nation of Israel. Amos 3:2, Deut 7:6
4. NT believers. Eph 1:4
5. All 12 original apostles, including Judas. John 6:70 He was never saved.
6. Paul. Acts 9:15, 1 Tim 1:12

None of this list was chosen for salvation. But all of them were chosen, according to the Bible. So, what were they chosen for? Service, each and every one of them, including Judas.

Notice these verses that show that Jesus Christ was chosen for service:
Jesus Christ is The Chosen One:

1 Pet 2:6 - For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

Isa 42:1 - “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.

Luke 9:35 - A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.”

Luke 23:35 - The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, “He saved others; let him save himself if he is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.”

Acts 17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Now, notice these verses that show that Paul was chosen for service as well:
Paul was elected to service:

Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

Acts 22:10 - "'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. "'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.’

Acts 26:16 - ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me.

1 Tim 1:12 - I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service.

My comment was to corect the presentation which says that the doctrine of predestination is equivilent to election. It is not.

Again - the aguments against election - rather than admit that there is a difference in Reformed theolody between predestination and election and correct the way that they are often conflated. .

Thursday · Jun 13, 2017

Marvin Knox said:
Not so.

There are scriptures which say that if you endure you will be saved. But I see none which say that you must endure to be saved.

The two are not the same.

I could, I suppose, be wrong. If you would provide those scriptures I will change my mind on the matter.

Thanks!

Romans 11
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Heb 3:14
We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

2 Tim 2:12
If we endure hardship, we will reign with him. If we deny him, he will deny us.

Matthew 10:22
You will be hated by everyone on account of My name, but the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

EmSw · Jun 13, 2017

Marvin Knox said:
My comment was to corect the presentation which says that the doctrine of predestination is equivilent to election. It is not.

Again - the aguments against election - rather than admit that there is a difference in Reformed theolody between predestination and election and correct the way that they are often conflated. .

Then tell us Marvin that there is election without predestination. You just won't own up to the truth of your beliefs.

Ron Gurley · Jun 14, 2017

"endure to the end" as a pre-requisite for salvation is based on ~3-4 verses taken out of context and MISS-interpreted SPIRITUALLY. FALSE DOCTRINE!

The one verse EXTRACTS taken out of CONTEXT.

1. Matthew 24:13...CONTEXT below...Mark 24 ...Jesus' Prophecy of Things to Come to His Disciples...Signs of Christ’s Return

...But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved....

Matthew 24:1
As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples (saved believers) came to Him privately, saying,
“Tell us,
1. when will these "things" happen, and
2. what will be the "sign of Your coming", and
3. what will be the "sign" of the "end of the age"?”

Mark 13:13 (parallel harmony)...CONTEXT below...Mark 13 ...Jesus Prophecy of Things to Come to His Disciples

...You will be hated by all because of My name,
but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved....

3. Matthew 10:22... CONTEXT below...Matthew 10...Twelve Disciples: Instructions for Service...The Tasks before them

...You will be hated by all because of My name,
but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved....

Matthew 10:1, 16, 21-23
Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority
over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.
...“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves;
so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves....
...“Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child;
and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.
You will be hated by all because of My name,
but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.
“But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next;
for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes...

The English Translations COMPARED:

Matthew 24:13...King James Version (KJV)
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:13...New King James Version (NKJV)
13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 24:13...New International Version (NIV)
13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13...New American Standard Bible (NASB)
13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

Matthew 24:13...New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

The Koine Greek translations and meanings:

"the one who endures". Greek5278...hypomeno...
to remain...abide, not recede or flee...
to preserve: under misfortunes and trials to hold fast to one's faith in Christ...bear bravely and calmly: ill treatments

"the end"...Greek 5056...telos...termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be...the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose

"will be saved." ...Greek 4982...sozo...keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction...
to save a suffering one (from perishing)...to preserve one who is in danger of destruction...rescue

Other NT / OT uses of "endure"...

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able,
but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also,so that you will be able to endure it.

1 Corinthians 4:12
and we toil, working with our own hands;
when we are reviled, we bless;
when we are persecuted, we endure;

Hebrews 12:7
It is for discipline that you endure;
God deals with you as with sons;
for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?

1 Peter 1:25
But the word of the Lord endures forever.”
And this is the word which was preached to you.

Revelation 2:3
and you have perseverance and have endured for My name’s sake, and have not grown weary.

2 Timothy 4:5
But you, be sober in all things,
endure hardship,
do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

Hebrews 12:2
fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and
has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

OT:
Psalm 72:17
May his name endure forever;
May his name increase as long as the sun shines;
And let men bless themselves by him;
Let all nations call him blessed.

Psalm 89:36
“His (God's creation?) descendants shall endure forever And his throne as the sun before Me.

Psalm 104:31
Let the glory of the Lord endure forever;
Let the Lord be glad in His works;

Psalm 145:13
Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And Your dominion endures throughout all generations.

ONE / HE...Jesus is speaking ONLY to disciples / followers. The Gospels were written with BELIEVERS in Mind.

"endures WHAT?
1. any persecution of any Christ-follower
2. the obstacles encountered while serving Jesus
3. the tribulations of "the end of the ages"
4. other

"end" of WHAT?
1. of Man's life BEFORE salvation
2. of Man's life AFTER salvation
3. of Man's life
4. the obstacles encountered while serving Jesus
5. the tribulations of "the end of the ages"
6. other

"saved" from WHAT; by WHAT; Unto WHAT.."salvation"?
1. from "eternal spiritual death" BEFORE salvation
2. unto "eternal spiritual life" AFTER salvation
3. by "works" or by "grace through faith"
4. the obstacles encountered while serving Jesus
5. the tribulations of "the end of the ages"
6. other

MY CONCLUSION: "enduring" / "standing firm" in the will of God is NOT a spiritual pre-requisite or condition for the John 3 / Ephesians 2 described "salvation"!

Ron Gurley · Jun 14, 2017

Methinks Marvin has left the building.

Marvin Knox · Jun 14, 2017

Thursday said:
Romans 11
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Heb 3:14
We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.
2 Tim 2:12
If we endure hardship, we will reign with him. If we deny him, he will deny us.
Matthew 10:22
You will be hated by everyone on account of My name, but the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

I appreciate very much your going to the trouble to respond with verses.

I respectfully disagee that these say that one must endure to the end to be saved.

The first verse addresses the inclusion of gentiles in the gospel program as well as the Jews and not individual faith.

The third one address Christ's representation of us as our advocate in various situation of life before His Father and not salvation.

The others are more of the same. they say what will happen if we do endure. They do not say what will happen if we do not.

Different perspectives no doubt. But that is to be expected given our widely differing view of salvation itself as a Protestant as opposed to a Catholic.

Marvin Knox · Jun 14, 2017

Ron Gurley said:
Methinks Marvin has left the building.

Not at all. You have simply been unable to discuss the doctrine of predestination without referring to the doctrine of election.

You either don't understand the difference or you just don't want to debate the issues surrounding predestination because of your dislike for Calvinism with which you wrongly link the doctrine as being their's only.

If you'd like to have a civil discussion - we can.

There is IMO a reason why you just post about me without addressing me personally and it is not a noble reason.

Marvin Knox · Jun 14, 2017

EmSw said:
Then tell us Marvin that there is election without predestination. You just won't own up to the truth of your beliefs

The doctrine of predestination would stand with or without the doctrine of election being true - not that it's not true.

I don't expect that you will be able to grasp the nuance of that statement. :wave:

EmSw · Jun 15, 2017

Marvin Knox said:
The doctrine of predestination would stand with or without the doctrine of election being true - not that it's not true.

I don't expect that you will be able to grasp the nuance of that statement.

The doctrine of predestination falls flat on its face without election. Can you grasp that?

Without election included in the doctrine of predestination, then God only predestines certain things and not all. Even you say He predestines EVERYTHING? Predestination runs the whole gamut of Calvinism - Predestination 101. Without predestination, Calvinism falls flat on its face and chokes.

Calvinism becomes like the dodo bird, the woolly mammoth, and the t-rex without predesination. You just can't seem to see how predestination pervades Calvinism like flies on a dead carcass, including election.

Predestination DOES NOT stand without the doctrine of election. It becomes crippled without election. Predestination is the crutch of election, and election is the crutch of predestination. How can one so studied in Calvinism miss this?

Yes Marvin, walk away again, but stay and you will learn the truth about Calvinism, which you seem to not want to know. Here's a fact for you - predestination is the foundation of Calvinism. It's not salvation, the cross, nor the teachings of Jesus. These are consequences (something produced by a cause or necessarily following from a set of conditions) of predestination. Predestination is the first-born of Calvinism; all things proceed from there, including election.

Thursday · Jun 15, 2017

Marvin Knox said:
I appreciate very much your going to the trouble to respond with verses.

I respectfully disagee that these say that one must endure to the end to be saved.

The first verse addresses the inclusion of gentiles in the gospel program as well as the Jews and not individual faith.

The third one address Christ's representation of us as our advocate in various situation of life before His Father and not salvation.

The others are more of the same. they say what will happen if we do endure. They do not say what will happen if we do not.

Different perspectives no doubt. But that is to be expected given our widely differing view of salvation itself as a Protestant as opposed to a Catholic.

Yes, inclusion of gentiles is part of the meaning of the verse, but not the only meaning. It clearly states that unless we remain in God's kindness we will be cut off. Do you deny this?

You haven't refuted a single word of the scriptures I presented. Rather, you have substituted man made dogma.

Romans 11
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Heb 3:14
We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.
2 Tim 2:12
If we endure hardship, we will reign with him. If we deny him, he will deny us.
Matthew 10:22
You will be hated by everyone on account of My name, but the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

Marvin Knox · Jun 15, 2017

EmSw said:
The doctrine of predestination falls flat on its face without election. Can you grasp that?

Without election included in the doctrine of predestination, then God only predestines certain things and not all. Even you say He predestines EVERYTHING? Predestination runs the whole gamut of Calvinism - Predestination 101. Without predestination, Calvinism falls flat on its face and chokes.

Nonsense.

Of course, if election is not a biblical doctrine, then God didn't predestine election.

If Marvin were to have died at 7 years old, then the predestination of Marvin to make it to 72 would fall flat on it's face and choke.

What I grasp is that you don't know what you're talking about.

Marvin Knox · Jun 15, 2017

Thursday said:
You haven't refuted a single word of the scriptures I presented. Rather, you have substituted man made dogma.

I disagree.

Thursday · Jun 15, 2017

Marvin Knox said:
I disagree.

John 15:10
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Romans 11
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Heb 3:14
We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.
2 Tim 2:12
If we endure hardship, we will reign with him. If we deny him, he will deny us.
Matthew 10:22
You will be hated by everyone on account of My name, but the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

Ben johnson · Sep 24, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
Well for one thing, salvation is much more than a union between two people.

God doesn't call it a union ever.

It is "united" in Rom6:2-7. In Jn17:3 "Father, eternal life is knowing You, and knowing Me (Jesus)". 1Jn5:11-13 "he who has Jesus has eternal life."

What does Gal2:20 mean to you?

Ben johnson · Sep 24, 2017

FreeGrace2 said:
Jesus very specifically taught eternal security. He said:
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. Jn 10:28

"Snatch", in Greek, is "harpazo"; sieze or remove forcibly. Same as "caught up" (rapture!) in 1Thess4:15-17. No ONE can FORCE us; we very much can remove ourselves by apostasy.

Note that those Jesus gives eternal life will never perish. No conditions, just receiving the gift of eternal life.

What does Revelation 3 mean to you?
"Those WHO overcomes I will NOT BLOT from My Book of Life".
"He WHO overcomes I will make a pillar in My temple."
"He WHO overcomes I will grant to sit on My throne."
"So HOLD FAST to what you have so no one will STEAL YOUR CROWN!"
What crown do you think they can steal, FG?

What Eve was told had nothing to do with salvation. They died spiritually that day, and physically later on (some 800-900 years).

Jesus' promise is found in #2 above. We are saved by GRACE, and we are kept by that same GRACE. Period.

Absolutely no, my friend -- we are saved by grace (God's!) THROUGH FAITH (ours!). Have you read Robertson's commentary on Rm1:16-17? God's righteousness is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith; we are to live BY faith.

What does Jude20-21 mean to you? "BUilding yourselves in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in God's love!"

Any gift can be thrown away.

Click to expand...

Let's not lower the gift of God's own life as a mere object, like a coin that can be thrown away.

You're familiar with Luke15? Jesus said God's gift is EXACTLY LIKE a coin THAT CAN BE LOST! The Prodigal story clearly taught that "we can fall"!

There are NO verses that speak of throwing away eternal life, or giving it away, or losing it.

In the book I wrote, I list ONE HUNDRED AND ONE. And that's not the end. I've posted a couple here! The post right above yours has a signature quoting 2Tim2:15, "dokimos approved". May we discuss 1Cor9:25-27, and 2Cor13:5 "adokimos"?

Can we REALLY become "castaway"? (Yes!!!)

These verses have nothing to do with losing salvation. It's about reward: to reign with Christ. For those who endure. For those who don't endure, they will be DENIED the privilege of reigning with Christ.

Really. What sins are "acceptable" to Jesus and God, so we'll keep eternal life but miss out on reigning with Him?

1Jn1:3 says salvation is FELLOWSHIP with Jesus; will Jesus inhabit us as we walk in sin?
(No one claims to be "sinless"; but we do not WALK in sin.)

And v.13 teaches eternal security; God cannot deny Himself. God the Holy Spirit indwells every believer, per John 14:16. So, even those who end up not enduring, or "denying Him" will still be saved, because of the indwelling Spirit.

How about that -- we can DENY Jesus but that does not connect with Matt10:33; we are saved "through faith" but are still saved if we are faithless. Not meaning to offend you; what do you think "salvation" is?

There are NO verses that warn against "falling from salvation". That is merely an erroneous assumption. The warnings are about falling from the faith, not salvation.

How about the entire letter of Galatians? Those who ARE KNOWN BY GOD (4:9), can become SEVERED from Christ and FALLEN from GRACE. 5:4. What do you think he meant?

Plus, if one could "fall from salvation", then Jesus' promise in Jn 10:28 is meaningless.

Please reread 1Jn5:11-13; he who has Jesus has eternal life. Now -- 2Jn1:7-9, he who goes too far (goes out from us!) and does not abide in the teachings, no longer has Jesus or the Father! What did he mean?

What are we to guard in 2Tim1:12-13? "Hold fast the sound words" -- isn't that the same as in 1Tim4:16, "abide in Jesus and His teachings and SAVE YOURSELVES"?

This "iceberg" has sunk! None of these verses (or any other) say anything about falling from salvation.

The iceberg is very much afloat, and all three OSAS views are waving at it from the deck of the Titanic!

Glad that you mentioned this. In fact, Paul described eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Then, he described what the gifts of God are in Rom 11:29 - for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

From God's side, He will not "revoke". But what about from our side?

Acts20:28-31 "savage wolves will NOT SPARE THE FLOCK; and perverse men will draw away EVEN DISCIPLES." Any understanding to make "flock", unsaved? Are they really in danger? (Any way to make it "NO"?) What about the disciples that can be drawn away? Can we stamp verses like these, with "NOT REALLY"?

So it's extremely obvious that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable.

By God, yes -- Heb13:5. By us, not so much. May we discuss Col2:6-8?

We know one thing, since eternal life is irrevocable, and Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life will never perish, the verse CANNOT be about loss of salvation. Or Jesus and Paul were lying to us.

Now you know different.

Right?

Seems you've a penchant for equating the gifts of God into mere objects. Why?

Jesus did it -- "coin", and "lost sheep"; and "PRODIGAL son", Lk15...

Eph 1:13 teaches that those having believed (aorist tense) are marked IN HIM with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit. So your comment means you think that Holy Spirit "can be broken". Nonsense. And blasphemous.

Again meaning no offense -- do you have enough ink for the "NOT-REALLY" stamp? You are reading more and more verses about "falling-from-salvation". What did 1Tim4:1 mean, "many will FALL AWAY FROM THE FAITH, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons"? They were NOT REALLY saved (stamp!), or they did NOT REALLY fall away (stamp!)? Again -- not intending insult; these verses only go away under the NOT REALLY stamp. But it's not credible.

v.14 says this seal is a guarantee of our inheritance for the day of redemption.

We can look up the Greek if you want; I think it's "earnest", which every real-estate agent knows is forfeitable...

If that isn't eternal security, what is it?

You tell me? I'm really looking forward to your thoughts about "adokimos" and "steal-your-crown", above...

What evidence in Scripture is there for this statement? None.

The words "no one" simply means "no person". If you are other than a "person", then even you cannot remove yourself from Jesus' hand.

The idea that anyone can remove themselves from either the hand of Jesus or God Himself is erroneously claiming to be more powerful than Jesus or God.

Which is blasphemous.

Keep studying per 2 Tim 2:15. There are many verses that use the aorist tense for 'believing'. That tense indicates a point in time, or a simple occurrence.

So please stop abusing the present tense.

btw, the present tense does not EVER mean "continuous action for the rest of one's life". It only means current action. Not "on-going action" indefinitely.

Great question! Paul answers that one in Rom 8:38 - For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,

So, even nothing in the future (tomorrow) can separate us from the love of Christ.

I think I've replied enough to make you think about this; and my back is hurting. Just -- "God loves even those who perish."

For God so loved the WORLD --- God showed His love for us in that while we were YET sinners -- and many more...

Heb 12. God's discipline, which is painful.

Which can be rejected, Heb12:7-9.

So you're an author. Congratulations. And I have just refuted ALL of your misunderstandings of those verses. And proved from John 10:28, Eph 1:13,14 and Rom 6:23 - 11:29 eternal security.

Do you really still think so? (Does anyone else reading this?)

How about acknowledging the promise of Jesus and the descriptions by Paul of eternal life and God's gifts? Do you take them literally? Or dismiss them and pretend they don't say what they say, and very clearly?

One of my deepest desires is to have you as a brother or sister with Jesus forever; what you believe is between you and Him. But what I'm citing for you, does not allow "OSAS". I look forward to your thoughts on the above verses. And there are many more!

Ben johnson · Sep 24, 2017

Libertas said:
You're taking these scriptures totally out of context. "Fallen from grace" is from Galatians 5:4 and it's referencing unsaved people who are mixing grace and law.

No, it's talking about those who were KNOWN BY GOD (can only mean "saved"!), 4:9; who turn BACK to Law/weak-worthless-things (to become enslaved all over again!). Please connect what I said about Rom1:16-17 "from beginning faith to ending faith", with Gal3:9 "having begun in the Spirit are you now ending in the flesh?"

Don't miss 5:7, "you WERE RUNNING WELL, who HINDERED you from OBEYING THE TRUTH"?

What does "running-well" mean? Do the unsaved, ever do that? And "obeying the truth"? And "begun in the Spirit"? ANd "KNOWN by God"?

You can't believe in salvation by faith and also works:

Romans 11:6-7King James Version (KJV)
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Very good citation, well done. AND -- "building yourselves in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in God's love". Jude20-21. What did he mean?

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Every other passage you listed as a proof text has nothing to do with people losing their salvation.

Please see the long post I just made to Free Grace; you are invited to reply.

If eternal security is wrong then none of these passages make any sense: John 10:27-30; I Peter 1:5; Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:35-39; John 5:24

Would you be willing to discuss these?

Ben johnson · Sep 24, 2017

Ron Gurley said:
The NUMBER of VERSES + WEIGHT of them + IN CONTEXT + ABSOLUTE SPIRITUAL TRUTHS of all Scripture fully support the true doctrine of " Eternal Security" aka "OSAS".

PLEASE: try to rebut my POST#313 above!!!
If one does not, the truth WINS OUT!

I just did, Ron, a couple posts back in my reply to "Free Grace 2". I'd love to read your thoughts...

Ben johnson · Sep 24, 2017

bling said:
Since you asked:

Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up.

Our doing good stuff while here on earth (or better: our allowing God to work through us doing good stuff) is not to “earn”, “payback” or to allow us to “hold on to our salvation”. We want to continue to utilize Godly type Love and not get caught up in carnal type love so the huge Love Feast of Heaven (unselfish type Love only) still has value to us and not something we would sell on the cheap.

As far as being saved by faith only without “works”, that is true, but just like the Prodigal son wimped out of taking the punishment he fully deserved and humbly returned to the Father, we must wimp out, give up surrender to our enemy God and that will allow God to shower us with His charity.

Eternal Life in heaven is spoken of as our inheritance and not something we actually have at the moment. All other Gifts of God we have right away, but heaven is truly ours as a birthright (our inheritance).

Part of the meaning to the concept of being given a gift is the fact that the ownership of the gift actually transfers to the receiver of the gift and as such the receiver of the gift can do what he/she wants to do with the gift.

The Hebrew writer in Heb. 12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

Esau own the “gift” of the first born inheritance rights, which could not be taken from him by anyone, nor could someone steal it from his hand, not even his father could take them back, but Esau could sell it or give it away.

The Hebrew writer is telling us not to give away or sell our birth right (as born again Christians) which is our inheritance of eternal life.

We own a paid up tax free deed to a home in heaven, so that home was gifted to us, but the Hebrew writer is saying we could sell (or give it away) like Esau did.

I can go through each of your verses one by one showing the context and alternative interpretations but that takes lots of words and a very long post which in the past you have not wanted to weigh through, so I will give you some verses that show how the Christian can give up (this is not saying God is taking it back) eternal life:

John 15:1-2 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit".

John 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".

1 Corinthians 10:12 "Therefore let him who thinks he is standing, beware, that he does not fall".

2 Chronicles 15:2 "If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you".

James 1:14-15 "But each one is tempted when he is lured away and enticed by his own desires. Then when that desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death".

James 5:19-20 "Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his ways, will have saved a soul from death".

Hebrews 3:12-14 "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end."

1 Timothy 1:19 "Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked".

Hebrews 2:1 "Therefore we must pay greater attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away".

Romans 8:13 "For if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live".

1 John 2:4-6 "The one who says, I have come to know Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked".

1 Timothy 4:1 "But the Holy Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons".

Deuteronomy 8:11 "Take care that you do not forget the Lord your God, by failing to keep his commandments, his ordinances, and his statutes, which I am commanding you today".

John 6:66-68 "As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew, and were not walking with Him anymore. Jesus said therefore to the twelve, You do not want to go away also, do you? Simon Peter answered Him, Lord, to whom shall we go? It is You who has the words of eternal life".

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".

2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father."

John 15:4-6 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".

Very excellent post, well done!

I know I'll step on toes and make someone angry; but --- all three views of OSAS, are simply repeating what satan told Eve.

"Don't worry, you won't really die."

Above I cited four verses from Rev3, "hold fast so no one steals your crown". And, "he WHO overcomes I will not ERASE your name from My Book of Life."

Now do we make "erase", into "NOT REALLY"?

FreeGrace2 · Sep 24, 2017

I said this:
"Jesus very specifically taught eternal security. He said:
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. Jn 10:28"

Ben johnson said:
"Snatch", in Greek, is "harpazo"; sieze or remove forcibly. Same as "caught up" (rapture!) in 1Thess4:15-17. No ONE can FORCE us; we very much can remove ourselves by apostasy.

You've missed the point of John 10:28 competely.

The basis for never perishing is simply to be given eternal life. Do you believe what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life?

Now, the only question is: when is eternal life possessed by a person?

Jesus already answered that question a number of times previously in John's gospel.

For example,
John 3:
15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

All these verses testify to the fact that whoever believes possesses (right now or currently), eternal life.

That obviously means that the believer possesses eternal life WHEN they initially believe.

So, the promise of never perishing is made to people WHEN they initially believe and are given eternal life.

What does Revelation 3 mean to you?
"Those WHO overcomes I will NOT BLOT from My Book of Life".
"He WHO overcomes I will make a pillar in My temple."
"He WHO overcomes I will grant to sit on My throne."
"So HOLD FAST to what you have so no one will STEAL YOUR CROWN!"
What crown do you think they can steal, FG?

These verses ALL refer to eternal rewards, not life. The phrase about "not blotting out" is a technique known as "litotes". Look it up. It's a form of understatement to emphasize the opposite.

I then said this:
"Jesus' promise is found in #2 above. We are saved by GRACE, and we are kept by that same GRACE. Period."

Absolutely no, my friend -- we are saved by grace (God's!) THROUGH FAITH (ours!).

Eph 2:8 does NOT support the claim that we are kept by our own faith. If that were so, Jesus COULD NOT HAVE made His promise in John 10:28, which it seems you don't believe to be true. But is.

Have you read Robertson's commentary on Rm1:16-17? God's righteousness is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith; we are to live BY faith.

Does the verse say we are to live by faith for salvation? No, it does not. Please don't add to God's Word. Let the Word speak to you. Don't make up stuff.

What does Jude20-21 mean to you? "BUilding yourselves in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in God's love!"

This speaks of spiritual growth. Not "how to maintain your salvation".

You're familiar with Luke15?

Very.

Jesus said God's gift is EXACTLY LIKE a coin THAT CAN BE LOST! The Prodigal story clearly taught that "we can fall"!

You've missed the point of the parable. The son and father REMAIN son and father throughout the parable. What was "lost", or "died" wasn't relationship, since they remained son and father, but fellowship between them.

Are you familiar with 1 John 1? Count the # of times John mentioned "fellowship". It's very important. And cound the number of times it is used in the NT.

I then said:
"There are NO verses that speak of throwing away eternal life, or giving it away, or losing it."
In the book I wrote, I list ONE HUNDRED AND ONE.[/QUOTE]
Without a doubt, none of your list says what you think they say. If even one did, then Jesus' promise about never perishing on the basis of being given eternal life cannot be true. And we all know what that would mean. It would mean He lied to us. Is that your view? It HAS to be, if you think salvation can be lost.

And that's not the end. I've posted a couple here! The post right above yours has a signature quoting 2Tim2:15, "dokimos approved". May we discuss 1Cor9:25-27, and 2Cor13:5 "adokimos"?

I failed to find anything about losing salvation in 2 Tim 2:15.

" Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth."

I don't see the word 'salvation', or 'eternal life' or ANY reference to losing either.

What I DO see is an emphasis on studying (by doing my best to present mysealf to God) in order to be approved. In which case I will not be ashamed because I correctly handle the word of truth.

Those who believe that salvation can be lost are NOT approved because they haven't done their best to be approved or corrrectly handled the word of truth.

In fact, they have rejected the promise of Jesus in John 10:28 about those who are given eternal life shall never perish.

Can we REALLY become "castaway"? (Yes!!!)

What the word does NOT mean is to lose one's saved state.

Then I said this:
"These verses have nothing to do with losing salvation. It's about reward: to reign with Christ. For those who endure. For those who don't endure, they will be DENIED the privilege of reigning with Christ."

Really. What sins are "acceptable" to Jesus and God, so we'll keep eternal life but miss out on reigning with Him?

How in the world could one come up with the silly notion that I even hinted that there are "acceptable" sins? Ridiculous. It's just that you've failed to fulfill 2 Tim 2:15 by not correctly handling the word of truth and therefore have no clue about eternal rewards being on the basis of faithfulness and obedience. The OSNAS group thinks faithfulness and obedience is the basis for maintaining salvation. Which disrespects the promise of Jesus in John 10:28.

1Jn1:3 says salvation is FELLOWSHIP with Jesus; will Jesus inhabit us as we walk in sin?

More failure to fulfill 2 Tim 2:15.

" We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ."

First, this was written to saved people. That means those who HAVE a relationship with God through His Son. Fellowship speaks to the quality (or lack thereof) of that relationship.

Let's take the physical relationship between father and child (prodigal son parable). The physical relationship between father and child is permanent. iow, once born, neither the child nor the parents can change that. The DNA is physical and permanent.

There is a parallel in the spiritual. It is God who gives us new birth or regeneration. This makes God our Father. This relationship is just as permanent and is based on being born again of imperishable seed (1 Pet 1:23). Which directly affirms the promise of Jesus in John 10:28.

Now, is this relationship between father and son always pleasant and wonderful? Or is it possible that a "rift" can develop between father and son? Of course. Duh.

That is WHY believers must ensure they are IN fellowship with God and Christ. How does one do this? According to 1 John 1:9, through confession of sin.

(No one claims to be "sinless"; but we do not WALK in sin.)

As long as a believer either grieves (Eph 5:18) or quenches (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit, they ARE out of fellowship and cannot do anything but sin.

The ONLY time a believer cannot sin is when they are IN fellowship (1 John 3:9).

How about that -- we can DENY Jesus but that does not connect with Matt10:33; we are saved "through faith" but are still saved if we are faithless. Not meaning to offend you; what do you think "salvation" is?

The only thing that offends me is when believers deny the truth of John 10:28; that those Jesus has given eternal life (at the MOMENT they intially believe) shall never perish. That is offensive to me. It shows a total failure to fulfill 2 Tim 2:15.

How about the entire letter of Galatians? Those who ARE KNOWN BY GOD (4:9), can become SEVERED from Christ and FALLEN from GRACE. 5:4. What do you think he meant?

Does anything in Galatians say we can be severed from salvation? No, of course not.

So, what can be severed is fellowship, JUST LIKE the stupid prodigal.

Please reread 1Jn5:11-13; he who has Jesus has eternal life.

I have and I love the verses. Now, study to present your own self as approved to God and apply v.13 to John 10:28. Those who have eternal life have been GIVEN eternal life. By whom? By Jesus Himself. And we know what He says about those He gives eternal life. They shall NEVER PERISH. But it appears that you don't believe that.

Now -- 2Jn1:7-9, he who goes too far (goes out from us!) and does not abide in the teachings, no longer has Jesus or the Father! What did he mean?

It certainly can't mean he lost salvation. Or Jesus was a LIAR in John 10:28.

Here's the fact: when a believer either doesn't believe, or no longer believes what Jesus promises, IN THAT SENSE, no longer has Him.

You've got a huge problem. If salvation can be lost, then Jesus is a LIAR. Simpe as that. But since Jesus is NOT a liar, salvation cannot be lost. Simple as that.

What are we to guard in 2Tim1:12-13? "Hold fast the sound words" -- isn't that the same as in 1Tim4:16, "abide in Jesus and His teachings and SAVE YOURSELVES"?

One has to ask themselves, 'save yourselves'...from WHAT? What's the context?
12 That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet this is no cause for shame, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until that day.
13 What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.
14 Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.

Just as I thought; you missed a verse, which is v.14.

What is crystal clear in these verses is that there are NO words about losing salvation anywhere.

Now, from v.12, exactly what has Paul "entrusted to Him until that day"? His very soul, of course. And Paul says that Christ "is able to guard" what Paul entrusted to Him. This is eternal security.

Interesting that you didn't include v.14. It's directly related to another passage written by Paul in Eph 1:13-14 -
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Notice the "past tense" "when you believed", or "having believed". As a result of a point in time of believing, the one who has believed IS sealed with the Holy Spirit IN HIM. The believer is placed in union with Christ.

v.14 explains that this sealing is a deposit which guarantees our inheritance "until the redemption of God's possession (believers).

Again, eternal security.

From God's side, He will not "revoke". But what about from our side?

Please proceed to provide any verse that teaches that a person can revoke their eternal life.

Acts20:28-31 "savage wolves will NOT SPARE THE FLOCK; and perverse men will draw away EVEN DISCIPLES." Any understanding to make "flock", unsaved?

Nope. Or Jesus' promise in John 10:28 cannot be true. But Jesus isn't a LIAR.

Are they really in danger? (Any way to make it "NO"?)

YES, everyone is in danger from FALSE DOCTRINE. Which is what "savage wolves" try to do.

What about the disciples that can be drawn away? Can we stamp verses like these, with "NOT REALLY"?

Anyone can be drawn away from true doctrine. Those who believe salvation can be lost have rejected Jesus' promise, and as such, have been drawn away to false doctrine.

Again meaning no offense -- do you have enough ink for the "NOT-REALLY" stamp? You are reading more and more verses about "falling-from-salvation".

I've seen NO verses about falling from salvation. That is just made up.

What did 1Tim4:1 mean, "many will FALL AWAY FROM THE FAITH, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons"? They were NOT REALLY saved (stamp!), or they did NOT REALLY fall away (stamp!)? Again -- not intending insult; these verses only go away under the NOT REALLY stamp. But it's not credible.

OK. To fall from the faith, or wander from the faith isn't the same as falling from salvation. But that's your opinion. But a wrong one. Did Jesus LIE in John 10:28? Of course not. But you don't believe what He promised if you think salvation can be lost.

I then said this:
"v.14 says this seal is a guarantee of our inheritance for the day of redemption."

We can look up the Greek if you want; I think it's "earnest", which every real-estate agent knows is forfeitable...

So, it seems that what God GUARANTEES can be forfeitable. Absolutely astounding!

Apparently you think that God goes back on His promises. Well, He doesn't.

In fact, it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to lie.
" God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged." Heb 6:18

Jesus is God. He promises that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

One of my deepest desires is to have you as a brother or sister with Jesus forever; what you believe is between you and Him. But what I'm citing for you, does not allow "OSAS".

Your response to Scripture shows your failure to fulfill 2 Tim 2:15. They demonstrate a failure to grasp the basics of spiritual growth, confession of sin, and the promise of eternal rewards on the basis of faithfulness and obedience.

Eternal vs conditional security, or OSAS vs LOS

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