Prophecies, chronology, and the timing of these events

vinsight4u said:

Daniel 11, just like Daniel 8 is showing the link to the Grecian empire - as to the latter days.

Daniel 11 -
Israel...the vile person land....tidings out the east shall trouble him

tiding also -out of the north shall trouble him
The little horn is coming out of the east - not Rome.

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What is confusing you about this is you don't know who Daniel 11:36 is refering too. Follow the hyperlinks. there is no disputing this is Herod and Octavian.
Daniel 11:36 and Herod the King
Within a century of the death of Antiochus Epiphanes the sector of the Greek empire in Daniel 11 called the kingdom of the north was also conquered by Rome (64 B.C.) making the king of the north Roman. The only part of the Greek empire left not conquered by Rome at this time was Egypt, the king of the south. Then in the exact spirit and accuracy as the first 35 verses of Daniel 11. Verses 40-45 prophesy the last part of the Greek empire being conquered by Rome. It even prophesies the boundaries of the Roman empire in the region at this time period of the end, (verse 40.)
There is no difference between the first 35 verses and the last 15 verses as far as accuracy and the relevancy it has to the big picture prophecy of the four successive gentile empires that rule over Gods people. Verses 36 -39 in that same spirit of divine accuracy and relevancy, especially to Daniels people take some to predict a "King" of the time period when the last of the Greek empire is annexed by Rome. He is neither king of the north or south but was made King by Rome in Judea. Amazingly he is king of Judea when the Messiah comes and his dynasty continued until the the prophesied end.
Serious secular history does not deny that this part of Daniel is prophecy. For Herod the Great and his dynasty to not be examined as the obvious candidate for this portion of the prophecy goes without saying. Herod fulfilled verses 36-39 so precisely that to look into him would be wholly against the interests of those who seek to deny the supernatural nature of Bible prophecy. Unfortunately it seems that instead of solid Christian scholarship influencing secular history the opposite appears to be true. It looks as if Christian scholarship has fallen victim to that influence of those who want to hide the obvious fulfillment of prophecy because it is against their interests.
36. And the king (Herod) shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvelous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
37. Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
38. But in his estate shall he honor the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honor with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
39. Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain. Historical account of Herod and how he fulfilled these prophecies.
40. And at the time of the end ( The end in as foretold Daniel 8:17-19 and 9:26-27) shall the king of the south (Cleopatra, her siblings allied with Mark Antony) push at him (Rome (Cleopatra was also pushing at Herod): and the king of the north (Octavian soon to be named Augustus) shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
41. He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
42. He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
43. But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. Thus we have the final part of the 3rd empire (Greece,) of end time prophecy completely conquered by the fourth empire (Roman) of that same prophecy. Historical account.
44. But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. These were wars that happened between Rome and neighboring kingdoms immediately after the last part of the Greek empire was conquered. However because verse 45 seems to refer to Herod (The Great) once more some like to tie verse 44 into him as in this historical account. It fits both scenario's within the time frame given by scripture perfectly so it doesn't seem to matter which is chosen.
45. And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

From:
End Time Prophecy

David Kent said:

No. I said that Daniel 11 says who will place the abomination, the Romans, but doesn't say when.

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Don't understand what you mean by that.

Daniel Martinovich said:

Don't understand what you mean by that.

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Ok Daniel 11 says it was the Romans who would place the abomination of desolation. The believing Jews understood that, so that when Matt and Mark said "Let the reader understand, they knew what they meant. Luke, a gentile, writing later, tells us plainly, When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is at hand.

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Daniel Martinovich said:

What is confusing you about this is you don't know who Daniel 11:36 is refering too. Follow the hyperlinks. there is no disputing this is Herod and Octavian.

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I understand quite clearly that Herod is the second wilful king, I didn't need you to tell me.

Daniel Martinovich said:

Don't understand what you mean by that.

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It is perfectly clear. The

vinsight4u said:

Rome is not mentioned in Daniel 11 as to where the vile person comes from. It is about the past and future days of the Greek Empire.
The little horn will come out of the east and head west to attack Israel.
Tidings out of the north will trouble him.

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Daniel's last prophecy began in chapter 10 and continues to the end of chapter 12.

• Daniel 11:30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

The verses leading to v. 30,refer to Antiochus
Chittim was Cyprus where a large part of the Roman fleet was based. History records that the Roman fleet went to Egypt, their ally, to stop Antiochus attacking Egypt. Antiochus was agrieved and turned his anger on Jerusalem and the Jews.

• 3 1And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

In this verse the personal pronoun changes to plural, they. Obviously the Romans did not join with Antiochus, so the "they" must be the Romans. "They" the Romans, did not place the abomination at that time so it must be in the future. After verse 31, the pronoun changes back to the singular.
As Daniel Martinovich said this leads to the end of the Greek empire when the Romans overthrew Cleopatra.

• 35And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Time of the end. The end of the Geek kings, Cleopatra was the last king of the Greek empire.
Then as Bro Martin said The wifull king was Herod.

Futurists take that as a future antichrist, and some historicists take it as the Papal Antichrist.

And who rose at the time of the end of the Greek empire?

• Matthew 2:1Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

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vinsight4u said:

In chapter 10 Daniel was shown things to come. He had understanding of the vision and mourned for three full weeks. as for 21 years?
How long was Jacob in trouble? He served Laban for years.
The great tribulation is called the time of Jacob's trouble.

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A total misunderstanding of Prophecy.
Jacob's trouble had an immediate application, it was the trouble at the time of Nebuchadnezzar. The trouble with futurists, they take a prophecy with an immediate effect and put it into the future and end up with all sorts of strange theories. Lucifer is another.

vinsight4u said:

Daniel 10:14
"...shall befall thy people in the latter days..."

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Latter days of the period he was speaking about, the Persian and Greek empires.

Again you take every reference to the end, latter days, last days as in the future (at the end of time)

"O Brethren, give ear to a noble lesson.
We ought always to watch and pray,
For we see the world nigh to a conclusion.
We ought to strive to do good works,
Seeing that the end of this world approacheth.
There are already a thousand and one hundred years fully accomplished,
Since it was written thus, for we are in the last time.
We ought to covet little, for we are at what remains, viz. at the later end. "

Written about AD 1160, from the Noble Lesson of the Waldenses. They say there was alread 1100 yers since it was written, "we are in the last time."

And where did they get that quote from?

• 1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

"But tidings out of the east....out of the north...trouble him..."
Herod again.

• 1Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
• 2Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
• 3When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
• 4And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
• 5And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
• 6And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
• 7Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
• 8And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
• 9When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.
• 10When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
• 11And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
• 12And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
• 13And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
• 14When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
• 15And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
• 16Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.
• 17Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
• 18In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

David Kent said:

I understand quite clearly that Herod is the second wilful king, I didn't need you to tell me.



It is perfectly clear. The



Daniel's last prophecy began in chapter 10 and continues to the end of chapter 12.

• Daniel 11:30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

The verses leading to v. 30,refer to Antiochus
Chittim was Cyprus where a large part of the Roman fleet was based. History records that the Roman fleet went to Egypt, their ally, to stop Antiochus attacking Egypt. Antiochus was agrieved and turned his anger on Jerusalem and the Jews.

• 3 1And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

In this verse the personal pronoun changes to plural, they. Obviously the Romans did not join with Antiochus, so the "they" must be the Romans. "They" the Romans, did not place the abomination at that time so it must be in the future. After verse 31, the pronoun changes back to the singular.
As Daniel Martinovich said this leads to the end of the Greek empire when the Romans overthrew Cleopatra.

• 35And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Time of the end. The end of the Geek kings, Cleopatra was the last king of the Greek empire.
Then as Bro Martin said The wifull king was Herod.

Futurists take that as a future antichrist, and some historicists take it as the Papal Antichrist.

And who rose at the time of the end of the Greek empire?

• Matthew 2:1Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

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I got it. You and I are saying the same thing.

I did think of something you said about Daniel 12:11-12 though. Not that this really matters in the grand scheme of things. We know what time period it is within because that scripture interpreted all that for us. This is one of those little things not interpreted that clearly lays within a big picture that is already interpreted. I am thinking that what you said can't be so because I don't think there were any animals left alive in Jerusalem 45 days before the temple was burned. They were cannibalizing the dead by that time. Like I said, not important in the grand scheme of things and in comparison to our attempt to thwart the effects of all this false prophecy about our future in the guise of end time prophecy teachings. People hearts and minds need changed on this subject big time. God has big plans for the earth transpiring before out eyes. Yet most evangelical\Pentecostals are blind to what he has already done and will continue to do because they are taking the end time prophecies of the last two ages and placing them into this age. An age they do not belong that has a100+ chapters of it's own prophecy about. Prophecy we are to put our faith in and live according to.
Like this: How The Nations Are Blessed

Anyway. here is what I said in my article about Daniel 12:11-12.

Here we run into a problem, at least for this author. Not with the prophecy, but with mankind's incomplete knowledge of history. Many major players and events are foretold in chapters 11-12 but not all of them. The dates in-between the events deal in decades and centuries, not days. Yet here we have a prophecy about days which can be close to impossible determine through the lens of ancient history. This is why it so important to not have "itchy ears," needing to know now and looking at mere human education as your source to provide all info when you want it and how you want it. The temptation to have an answer now has lead many a disciple astray. Some may know exactly what this is referring to. However for the purposes of this article, this can be fit into it's context of the big picture laid out beforehand and the chronological nature of Daniel 11-12. We just went through the whole Greek Empire period as it relates to Israel. It then directed us to Herod, Caesar Augustus and the conquering of the last part of that Greek empire. Leading us into the first century it then takes us right through the New Testament to the end that has been prophesied and then gives us an event that starts a time period measured in days.
It just so happens that the thing that starts the time period is recorded. The beginning of the war as testified to by an eyewitness Josephus: When the nation of Israel stopped the twice daily sacrifice for Caesar. See Historical Account. The problem is the exact date of this event is vague. One could search and search and the only consensus is within a six month period of the summer of 66AD. When you are dealing with a prophecy that uses days as a measurement, opinions when something happened that range within a six month period makes it quite difficult to understand that prophecy. Because of this it is even more imperative to look at what the verse in question. Especially what this verse does not say. Specifically, it does not say the end or the desolation occurs at the end of this 1290 day period. It says the abomination that desolates is set up at that time. That is; the abomination that brings the desolation is set up. The only thing the author might guess, at this point is that it was around that period of days that Vespasian took the emperorship of Rome and commissioned Titus his son to conquer the rest of Judea.
Nero through whom the war started sent the twelfth legion under Cestius that easily conquered Judea. However during the siege of Jerusalem without reason that anyone to this day understands. He left the siege and withdrew from Judea loosing all of his equipment. The false prophets words of miraculous deliverance came to pass. The believers fled Jerusalem according to the words of Jesus at this time. Nero then sends Vespasian to finish the war. In the meantime the Israelites prepare and fortify for the war. During the time that Vespasian is conquering Judea Nero dies and civil war breaks out in the empire between rival would be emperors. After a year of this the legions under Vespasian declare him emperor and he goes to Rome to take the Empire. This is the point at which my guess is the 1290 days are fulfilled. There is also a little breathing period during this time where once more a chance for escape without having to surrender to a Roman Army . That may be the 1335 day period, or one month and a half past the 1290 day period. In other words the abomination that sets up the desolation is the new emperorship of Vespasian and his son Titus's campaign in Judea.

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