Pre-Trib Only The time to watch is now - Rapture

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Dave Watchman

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1. The Gospel must be preached unto all the World, then the End will come..(JESUS)

True, But this happens after the tribulation begins, Jesus is going to do this Himself with the help of 72,000 sets of two witnesses. This will all be done within the 371 days of Noah. And they will not have finished going through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

2. At the End Knowledge will Increase and TRAVEL will Increase. (Daniel/Gabriel)

This happened in the middle 1800's, right around 1844 (believe it or not).. We've hit some sort of ceiling now that has actually been recognized by some in the secular scientific community. Jet airliners are an example. The ones we fly in now haven't had much inherent change from the first one that flew in 1948:

DH_Comet_1_BOAC_Heathrow_1953.jpg


70 years after this de Havilland Comet and I would have thought we'd be flying around in supersonic transports by now.

The data manifests itself in the Huebner graph and speaks for itself, but this subject is rarely done justice.

Nhl68I0.jpg


3. Jesus said we can know the Season BUT NOT the Hour !! So stop trying to guess the day. (Jesus)

I'm sorry man, I don't think Jesus was talking about the second coming at the last day of the tribulation.

“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.

Because He continues on describing the days BEFORE Noah's tribulation. People are going to be unaware until the instant that the sudden destruction falls. Like on the day that Lot left out from Sodom, so will it be on the day that the Son of Man is revealed through His actions.

"For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

This day, this hour, continues to be known only to the Father. Jesus has a sort of conflict of interest that is built in to the scenario. 6000 years ago He stepped into harms way, in between the wrath of God and all of mankind. Since then He has been our High Priest and held back God's wrath from falling on all the rest of the world. He has to be taken out of the way, it's not appropriate for Him to push the button.

4. Israel has to be reborn in order for the BEAST to be REBORN......That happened just as Ezekiel predicted it would happen. THERE'S MORE...No use naming them all.

Their only job now is to hold up a sign. Suleiman the Magnificent held up the first one in 1535. 62 weeks, 434 years latter, the Knesset held up the second one in January 1969. 1948 had to happen so that there would be an end time decree to restore and rebuild the old city of Jerusalem again and then seven weeks until Messiah the Prince.

Like Newton said, the "compass of a Jubilee".
 
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redleghunter

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I must reserve my comments, they are not Pre-Trib, I would prefer it but am now anxious for anyone of them ... so, whichever pre-millennial view happens _ so let it be.
Regardless of one's held eschatology, we all join in unity of what we are commanded to do until His Coming.

1 Thessalonians 4:1-12 is quite instructive we are to continue to live productive and holy lives while we still sojourn here on earth.

God Bless you!
 
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Revealing Times

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True, But this happens after the tribulation begins, Jesus is going to do this Himself with the help of 72,000 sets of two witnesses. This will all be done within the 371 days of Noah. And they will not have finished going through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
No sir, I don't agree contextually speaking, notice Jesus says that before the Tribulation Kicks off via the the Abomination of Desolation. The Gospel is preached via the Church unto all the world, then the END/Tribulation years of Jacobs Troubles begin.

Notice everyone says the 144,000 preach, but the Bible doesn't say that. It does say that the Two-Witnesses turn Israel back unto God BEFORE the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord (Malachi 4:5-6) which is the Midway point of the week.

This happened in the middle 1800's, right around 1844 (believe it or not).. We've hit some sort of ceiling now that has actually been recognized by some in the secular scientific community. Jet airliners are an example. The ones we fly in now haven't had much inherent change from the first one that flew in 1948:
You have to combine the Phrases, the KNOWLEDGE and the TRAVEL go hand in hand. And there was no Travel like we travel today until the present time, it was technically possible, but people still didn't travel to and fro like they do nowadays, it just was not a reality. We have spaceships NOW, but if the Prophecy had of been people will travel to and from into Space, then this current day would not qualify for that prophecy, because only a few people have ever traveled into space, so if you catch my drift, this is the same thing, 50 years ago the World WAS NOT Traveling in the manner we are today. And on top of that you must add in the KNOWLEDGE. We have made SCARY LEAPS into things that ought not be. We have vastly more knowledge today than even 30 years ago. Combine the two, and thus we are in the Last Days, but MIND YOU, Daniels prophecies were not intended to be LAST GENERATION Specific anyway, it was just IN GENERAL. So yes, we could be in Daniels "Last Days" for 150 to 200 years. So its all relative in reality.

I'm sorry man, I don't think Jesus was talking about the second coming at the last day of the tribulation.

“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.
That is because you are quoting outside of the CONTEXTUAL UNDERSTANDINGS of the passage we are speaking about. You have inserted verse 36 into the equation when it does not fit. Matthew 31 Ends the Second Coming. Then its compared to the FIG TREE of Summer. Then verse 36 starts speaking about the DAYS OF NOAH (As in the Rapture that Jesus would only give details of later on unto Saint Paul, in full ). There of course were no chapters and verses they were added by others.

So you are conflating two different issues brother.

Because He continues on describing the days BEFORE Noah's tribulation. People are going to be unaware until the instant that the sudden destruction falls. Like on the day that Lot left out from Sodom, so will it be on the day that the Son of Man is revealed through His actions.

"For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
This day, this hour, continues to be known only to the Father. Jesus has a sort of conflict of interest that is built in to the scenario. 6000 years ago He stepped into harms way, in between the wrath of God and all of mankind. Since then He has been our High Priest and held back God's wrath from falling on all the rest of the world. He has to be taken out of the way, it's not appropriate for Him to push the button.

Like I stated, verse 36 on is about the Rapture, even though Jesus would not explain that unto them, he eventually did explain it unto Paul. So you are correct, only the Father knows when he is going to send the Bridegroom for the Bride (as is the Jewish Custom) but at the Second Coming we will all know, because of the Signs, and because of the Abomination of Desolation, the BEAST has EXACTLY 42 Months, we know the exact Day of the Second Coming, that is why Jesus gave the SIGNS after all. Then gives us the only Sign we need for the Rapture, as in the Days of Noah. In other words BE READY....Do not let your Guard down or you will be one of the FIVE Virgins that the door will be closed unto. Keep plenty of Oil (Holy Spirit) so you are not caught in Darkness when Jesus calls us home.

Watch this brother........Read all, but pay close attention to steps number 8, 10 and 11.


The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

1 – Selection of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The Son chooses the Bride – the Father makes the arrangements
Church - John 15:16 – “You did not choose Me, but I chose you . . .”

2 – The Bride Price established
Jewish Wedding - The father of the bride must be reimbursed for the loss of his daughter.
Church - I Corinthians 6:20 - “For you were bought with a price.” The Bride price was paid when Jesus died on the Cross.

3 – The Betrothal
Jewish Wedding - More than mere “engagement”, it was a permanent arrangement. Recall the story of Joseph and Mary.
Church – The attachment of the Church to the Lord is also permanent, and forever. “This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.” (John 6:58) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:28)

4 – The Marriage Contract
Jewish Wedding – A written agreement committing each party to the marriage.
Church - The entire Holy Bible is our written agreement containing the promises of God. Jesus said, “If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;” (John 8:31)

5 – The Bride must consent
Jewish Wedding – This is not entirely an arranged marriage; the bride must agree.
Church – “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;” (Mark 16:16) “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Romans 10:9)

6 – The Bridal Gift and the Cup of the Covenant
Jewish Wedding – A glass of wine is taken upon the signing of the contract.
Church – Each time we gather around the Lord’s Table, we remember the “contract.” “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28)
Jewish Wedding – The Bride is given a gift by the groom.
Church - The Holy Spirit is given by Jesus –– “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:38) This, of course, occurred on the Day of Pentecost.

7 – The Ceremonial Purification of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The next step for the Bride after she is betrothed is a ceremonial cleansing. In Biblical times the Bride would use a Mikvah, which was pool of water, in which she would immerse herself.
Church - Acts 2:41 – “Then those who gladly received his word were baptized (immersed); and that day about three thousand souls were added [to them].”

The Church is an insertion in the Lord's Plan. Israel was the original bride. I believe that the Lord Jesus will come for His bride, the Church, in a separate event (the Rapture) from the Lord's return for His bride, Israel. From this point forward in the Jewish Wedding process, following the purification of the bride, in my opinion the Church will be dealt with separately in the time defined as the Church Age, or the Age of Grace. This period of time will extend from the first Day of Pentecost to the day when the Lord Jesus calls us Home.

8 – The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Church - John 14:3 – “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself.”

The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding. “But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:36)

9 – The Bride is consecrated and set apart
Church - First Peter 2:9 – “But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people.”

10 – The Groom returns with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes!”
Church - First Thessalonians 4:16 – “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.”

Let me insert an additional hope at this point. When the Lord Jesus comes for His Bride, the Church, we will not be totally surprised. Although the Jewish bride did not know the day or the hour, she was expectant. The Apostle Paul in speaking of “that Day” said, “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day.” (First Thessalonians 5:4-5) Today, many in the Church are expectant and will not be totally surprised.

11 – The Bride and Groom go to the wedding chamber.
Church – This period when the Bride and Groom spend time together seems to show that the Bride of Jesus will be with Him in Heaven. This appears to indicate a pre-Tribulation gathering of the Church, and is described in Isaiah 26:20; “Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.” Praise the Lord!

12 – The Marriage Supper
Church – “‘Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.’ And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Then he said to me, ‘Write: Blessed [are] those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” (The Revelation 19:7-9)

In my opinion, the Feast of Pentecost is still being fulfilled and will be completed when the Lord Jesus comes for His bride.

I believe that in the remaining steps of the Jewish Wedding process, the steps will be fulfilled for Israel in a separate manner.

Their only job now is to hold up a sign. Suleiman the Magnificent held up the first one in 1535. 62 weeks, 434 years latter, the Knesset held up the second one in January 1969. 1948 had to happen so that there would be an end time decree to restore and rebuild the old city of Jerusalem again and then seven weeks until Messiah the Prince.

Like Newton said, the "compass of a Jubilee".

Not so in full brother, Israel has to turn back unto God BEFORE the 70th Week ends, the Decree of Daniel that explains the Jeremiah prophecies say that Israel WILL TURN BACK TO GOD BEFORE THE 70 WEEKS END !! Malachi 4:5-6 says the same thing as does Zechariah 12:10 and Zechariah 13:1. I agree Israel had to be reborn, but then again I have said as much, BUT ALL ISRAEL MUST BE SAVED, meaning Israel accepts their Messiah, they have to brother, its Prophesied.
 
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Dave Watchman

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No sir, I don't agree contextually speaking, notice Jesus says that before the Tribulation Kicks off via the the Abomination of Desolation. The Gospel is preached via the Church unto all the world, then the END/Tribulation years of Jacobs Troubles begin.

If I say what I think it is, it's going to sound like I'm saying my understanding is better than your understanding. And I'd rather not do that. But I see what your doing RT. It took me a bit but then I said: "Oh, I see what he's doing'.

Matthew 24 is written in a similar way to the book of Revelation. It reminds me of when Jesus said that He didn't speak his own words, but was speaking the words that were given to Him by His Father. Like how Revelation is written as a series of 12 apocalyptic visions that do not always adhere to a strict chronological order, Matthew 24 is written in five apocalyptic sequences that are best described as repetition and enlargement.

Verse: 14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.​

Is the end of the first section, the last verse of an overview of our end times. It's talking about the last day of the tribulation. The last day for us anyway. It's the end of God's plan of salvation at the seventh trumpet.

Then Jesus backs up and begins again with a new segment that gives more detail of what to look for just before the tribulation begins at verse 15.

15“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

(For then there will be great tribulation)​

You have to combine the Phrases, the KNOWLEDGE and the TRAVEL go hand in hand. And there was no Travel like we travel today until the present time, it was technically possible, but people still didn't travel to and fro like they do nowadays, it just was not a reality. We have spaceships NOW, but if the Prophecy had of been people will travel to and from into Space, then this current day would not qualify for that prophecy, because only a few people have ever traveled into space, so if you catch my drift, this is the same thing, 50 years ago the World WAS NOT Traveling in the manner we are today. And on top of that you must add in the KNOWLEDGE. We have made SCARY LEAPS into things that ought not be. We have vastly more knowledge today that 30 years ago. Combine the two, and thus we are in the Last Days, but MIND YOU, Daniels prophecies were not intended to be LAST GENERATION Specific anyway, it was just IN GENERAL. So yes, we could be in Daniels "Last Days" for 150 to 200 years. So its all relative in reality.

The time it took to go from stone arrow to gunpowder is thousands of years.

The time it took to actually fly a powered aircraft to full jet airplane is 30 years.

This is really a big subject on it's own. There was a guy on another forum who specialized in it. I wish I could find that thread again or that he was here. A car is still just a car. A car hasn't changed that much since the model T. It still has a steering wheel and four tires. Most of them are still powered by internal combustion. Back in the 50's, they thought they'd be flying cars by now.

EDIT:

FOUND IT.

From "Brother Mike"

Brother Mike said:

The Word knowledge in Hebrew means increased awareness, perception, skill and understanding.

Depending on who you asked, then seal was released in mid 1800's, or just after the 1900's In just 30 years period after 1900 man goes from it's first powered flight, to jet airplane.

The first gas combustion engine in a car came after 1900's (We had electric cars late 1800's

The first digital computer begin in 1939.

Atomic energy 1895-1945. Harnessing this knowledge did not come until 1939.

Israel became a nation 1948.

A release of NEW, never seen before technology came in the 1900's. Something man has never had.

In 1928 we had the first Antibiotic that would fight infection. Penecillien.

The 1900's introduced to man new technology that man never had before. Not improved past technology, but things we never conceived in the past.

Technology has ended. Nothing else new under the sun:

What Danials seal released has not been improved on. Cars are still gas combustion engines, Electric cars are not much different than their late 1800's counter parts, and Computers are capped out in speed. Planes are not any better.

The only thing we have been able to do is to improve on what the Lord gave man in the 1900's. A lot of technology is not price practical and can't be made for everyone's use.

AMD did get a CPU to clock at 6.5 ghz but it needed to be brought to absolute zero. If you want to run at 5 ghz at home you will need a liquid cooler for your CPU. Quatum experimental computers made ran no faster than what you get at the store.

IBM has made a Graphene chip, but we have to wait and see if it can be used for home use and is practical.

Our leaps and bounds in Technology has come to a crawl, we are in those last days.

Mike.
This can actually be some spooky material that can be found when Googling the secular sites with a phrase like: technological plateau - Google Search

This short article is where I found that Huebner graph.

http://anthonyburgoyne.com/2011/10/...n-smart-and-the-rate-of-technological-change/

"The Prius example is a perfect one. Henry Ford couldn't duplicate the technology that produced it, but it's still just a car that does the same job as Henry's Model T. Point A to B.​

Has progress in science and technology come to a halt? | Aeon Essays

"Look up and the airliners you see are basically updated versions of the ones flying in the 1960s – slightly quieter Tristars with better avionics. In 1971, a regular airliner took eight hours to fly from London to New York; it still does. And in 1971, there was one airliner that could do the trip in three hours. Now, Concorde is dead. Our cars are faster, safer and use less fuel than they did in 1971, but there has been no paradigm shift.​

Have we reached a technological plateau? | Science and Public Policy | Oxford Academic


Have we reached a technological plateau?
The End of the Future: the Waning of the High-tech World
by
Gimpel
Jean
 
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Revealing Times

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If I say what I think it is, it's going to sound like I'm saying my understanding is better than your understanding. And I'd rather not do that. But I see what your doing RT. It took me a bit but then I said: "Oh, I see what he's doing

While I do believe Revelation is written in a staggered manner, I also think it is uniform disarray in a way, you just have to understand it to see it, and I only got it about a year ago, in full.

The Seven Churches are in the first three chapters.....Rapture Theory moves us to the Church in Heaven in chapters 4 and 5 mean while the Church in Heaven stays there for Seven Years so there is LIVE ACTION (So to speak) things happening at the same time on earth FILM CREW CUTS to the Live action on earth, Seals are Broken at he Midway point (Not in 1800's IMHO), so we get Revelation Chapter 6, the most important chapter in Revelation......then in Chapter 7 we move back to Heaven where the Church is, the Martyrs under the Alter in Seal #5 are not this group of people, this is the Church in Heaven, the Martyrs in Seal #5 missed the Rapture, for whatever reason, then became Christians after the Rapture......Now we go from the Church in Heaven back to LIVE ACTION on earth again, the Seventh Seal is opened in chapter 8 which leads to the Seven Trumpets, then in chapter 9 we get the First and Second Woes......Now we go to the 10 Chapter which is a sort of Mystery, to me anyway.....then the 11th ch. is the Two-Witnesses being killed and the Last Woe.............Then we get Visions which are somewhat out of sorts but in reality they have a somewhat orderly concept unto them.

Chapter 12 is a Rev. ch. 6 EVENT......Chapter 13 is a Rev. ch. 6 EVENT. Both happen during Rev. ch. 6 as well as Rev. ch. 17 and Rev. ch. 18 starts during Rev. ch. 6 and ends in Rev. ch. 16.

Rev. 14 is the same event as Rev. 16 and the end of Rev. 18.

Rev. 15 and 16 goes with Rev. 6, 8, 9 and 11.

Rev. 19 is the Full Seven Year story of the Church in Heaven.

So we get segments of a Film OUT OF SORTS.......Think of the Film Memento.

Rev. chapters 1, 2 and 3 is the Seven Churches of Asia Minor on Earth 2000 years or so ago.

Rev. 4, 5, 7 and 19 is the Church in Heaven.

Rev. 6, 8, 9, 11 15 and 16 is the Seals, Trumpets and Vials of God in their own "ORDER" !!

Rev. 10, 12, 13, 14, 17 and 18 are Visions that tell stories that fill in some gaps with most of them having to do with Revelation chapter 6, the midway point or with Rev. 16 the Ending point, BUT......of what? One is the Midway Point that Starts Gods Wrath while the others have to do with the Ending point that Ends Gods Wrath. So God is filling in DETAILS with these Visions.

For Example:

Rev. 12 shows Israel Fleeing at the MIDWAY POINT and she stays hidden for how long? Well Israel stays hidden/protected for 1260 Days which will be the ENDING POINT of Gods Wrath.

Rev. 13 shows the BEAST becoming the Beast when he Conquers Jerusalem at the MIDWAY POINT. He stays in power over the Saints for 42 MONTHS...So this ends at the ENDING POINT ALSO.

Rev. 14 is the Harvest, it is about the END TIME Harvest, but it seems to also show Jesus coming in the Clouds for a different Harvest before the Wine-press Harvest begins.

Rev. 17 starts at the MIDWAY POINT also, its the Harlot or False Religions being Destroyed by the Anti-Christ/BEAST when he comes to power. This is a part of the 1.5 Billion people who die. This chapter shows the Beasts (Governments) and the Harlot (False Religion) parting ways in Revelation 17:16 but happens in Rev. ch. 6.........................this shows the Harlots Judgment which happens at the MIDWAY POINT.

Rev. 18 Shows Babylon, or the Government side of this two sided coin being Judged, it starts with the Seal Judgments, shows the Trumpet Judgments and it ends with the VIAL JUDGMENTS in Revelation ch. 16. So it covers chapters 6, 8, 9, 11, 14, 15 and 16.

Rev. 19 is the Church in Heaven, Marrying the Lamb and Returning for the Marriage Supper which happens at Armageddon.

Its like a Film all out of sorts, disjointed, but after you watch it you see exactly what it means in an odd sort of way.

As per the Matthew 24 mention.....Sorry, got some Cookies in the Oven, will get back on Matthew 24 shortly, didn't mean to go that long on Revelation but God was showing me new things so I just kept going with it....YIKES....LOL
 
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Ben johnson

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There isn't any "Pre-Trib-Rapture" verse. Consider:

Rev3:10 (written to a First Century church) -- if it applies to us today, says: "I will KEEP YOU FROM the hour of trial". Jn17:15 clearly "Keep From" is tereo-ek-GUARD-AMIDST, while "remove away" is "airo-ek-EXIT-THE-EARTH". If tereo-ek means "guard amidst" in Jn17, how could it not mean the same in Rev3:10?

1Thess5:9 is a thesis/antithesis, not destine for wrath BUT for salvation. "Wrath" is undeniably Hell, the Tribulation is not the antithesis of salvation. "Orge wrath" HELL, the same as Rom2:4-5.

Matt24:40-41 and Lk17:35-37, the "taken" ones die and are thrown to vultures; it is the LEFTBEHIND that are righteous. At Jesus' coming the wicked are taken/destroyed "exactly as they were in Noah's flood, and Lot's fire."

But Scripture says we will be here for the Tribulation. 2Thess2:1-3 says His coming and our gathering (one event, simple conjunction "kai-and") will not be before the lawless one is revealed; that is fully into the Tribulation.

1Thess4:15-17 says the living will not be raptured before the dead are raised; Rev20:4-6 says AFTER the Tribulation is the FIRST RESURRECTION -- although it says "those who died during the Tribulation", it strongly implies all deceased believers will be there; "blessed and holy is he who has a part in the First Resurrection".

If the "trumpet" in 1Thess4:16, and 1Cor15:52 and Matt24:31 are all the "Seventh Trumpet" of the Tribulation, then it looks like we are caught up to escape the Seven Bowls of Wrath.

So we had better be strong in Him, that we "endure to the end and gain our souls"...
 
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sdowney717

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There isn't any "Pre-Trib-Rapture" verse. Consider:

Rev3:10 (written to a First Century church) -- if it applies to us today, says: "I will KEEP YOU FROM the hour of trial". Jn17:15 clearly "Keep From" is tereo-ek-GUARD-AMIDST, while "remove away" is "airo-ek-EXIT-THE-EARTH". If tereo-ek means "guard amidst" in Jn17, how could it not mean the same in Rev3:10?

1Thess5:9 is a thesis/antithesis, not destine for wrath BUT for salvation. "Wrath" is undeniably Hell, the Tribulation is not the antithesis of salvation. "Orge wrath" HELL, the same as Rom2:4-5.

Matt24:40-41 and Lk17:35-37, the "taken" ones die and are thrown to vultures; it is the LEFTBEHIND that are righteous. At Jesus' coming the wicked are taken/destroyed "exactly as they were in Noah's flood, and Lot's fire."

But Scripture says we will be here for the Tribulation. 2Thess2:1-3 says His coming and our gathering (one event, simple conjunction "kai-and") will not be before the lawless one is revealed; that is fully into the Tribulation.

1Thess4:15-17 says the living will not be raptured before the dead are raised; Rev20:4-6 says AFTER the Tribulation is the FIRST RESURRECTION -- although it says "those who died during the Tribulation", it strongly implies all deceased believers will be there; "blessed and holy is he who has a part in the First Resurrection".

If the "trumpet" in 1Thess4:16, and 1Cor15:52 and Matt24:31 are all the "Seventh Trumpet" of the Tribulation, then it looks like we are caught up to escape the Seven Bowls of Wrath.

So we had better be strong in Him, that we "endure to the end and gain our souls"...

I like most of your post.
Consider after the 6th bowl judgement, Christ says this, that He is coming as a thief. In context the reader should assume Christ has not yet returned for His church even this late into the judgement on the beast's kingdom and this world. That Christ issues a warning to his people, which if He had already come, He would not bother to mention again using the coming AS A THIEF,, secretely at a time when people are not expecting Him. Probably most people this late into God's judgement have turned into scoffers about Him returning at all, they being a part of the great apostasy.

Revelations 16
Sixth Bowl: Euphrates Dried Up
12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs comingout of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.
 
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Dawnhammer

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1. The Gospel must be preached unto all the World, then the End will come..(JESUS)

Just curious - if and when we become multi planetary species and nothing has happened would that make this prophecy any less credible since for whatever reasons The Bible is quiet about humans living on other planets / habitats and how gospel should be heard there.
 
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Ken Rank

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He said it was at the last trump, an element of that particular feast.
The trumpet is only blown on Teruah? Hmm... that is news to me. By the way, I used to hold to a return on Teruah (trumpets) but Kippur makes far more sense since it is dealing with the removal of sin which has not been done yet. Since we still decay and die, we might be forgiven but we are still suffering from the wage of sin. Kippur is when sin is lifted... and we are changed at his coming. Trumpets would then be the awakening... end time awakening... the last call to gather perhaps... a time to check our lamps for oil and make ready for the bridegroom whose time is sooner than later.
 
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Ben johnson

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I like most of your post.
Consider after the 6th bowl judgement, Christ says this, that He is coming as a thief. In context the reader should assume Christ has not yet returned for His church even this late into the judgement on the beast's kingdom and this world. That Christ issues a warning to his people, which if He had already come, He would not bother to mention again using the coming AS A THIEF, secretly at a time when people are not expecting Him. Probably most people this late into God's judgement have turned into scoffers about Him returning at all, they being a part of the great apostasy.

Revelation 16
Sixth Bowl: Euphrates Dried Up
12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.
Hi, SDowney. I'm honored by your words.

"Coming-as-a-thief", works with His coming at the start of the vials. Revelation jumps around in time, and it fits "I'm coming when all this happens".

"All this stuff is going to happen when I come, so be ready!"

What do you think about the "First Resurrection" in Rev20, applied to 1Thess4:15-17? Tim LaHaye offered a "STAGED rapture" (stage one Pre-Trib, stage two resurrection of the dead post-Trib, stage three THEN all believers who survived the Trib). But that would still have many living precede (by seven years!) the dead -- and Paul said in 1Thess4 "the living shall not precede the dead!" It only works if the "First Resurrection" is a single event, preceding the rapture of the living.

Doesn't it?

LaHaye's (and Jenkin's) "Leftbehind Series" founded on the righteous being taken in Matt24:40-41; in Lk17 the taken ones are thrown to vultures. Oops...
 
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Handmaid for Jesus

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And... isn't that constellation in that spot at this time EVERY year?
No, not exactly. Not this configuration. This one has not been seen in thousands of years. People are saying nothing has happened, but I say a lot has happened but people scoff and say it is nothing, but four hurricanes , countries flooded, three earthquakes, sea roaring, fires, all at the same time, in the month of September is hardly nothing.
 
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Ken Rank

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No, not exactly. Not this configuration. This one has not been seen in thousands of years. People are saying nothing has happened, but I say a lot has happened but people scoff and say it is nothing, but four hurricanes , countries flooded, three earthquakes, sea roaring, fires, all at the same time, in the month of September is hardly nothing.
4 hurricane is a low average activity year... nothing unusual. Earthquakes happen all the time... and while I can go down the list... all these Christians are looking at the United States. Jesus was Jewish, prophecy is ALMOST exclusive to Eretz Yisrael (the land of Israel or surrounding countries) and just because the United States has had some storms and fires... this is the sign we all wait for? Christians are being beheaded, crucified, raped and tortured in various places around the world and their families are lucky to make our prayers lists and we focus on our little part of the world?

I am not saying these are NOT signs... I am saying we ALL KNOW we are living in the end times... that time is short... so let's stop wasting time looking for MORE SIGNS and start doing what we have been called to do!
 
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4 hurricane is a low average activity year... nothing unusual. Earthquakes happen all the time... and while I can go down the list... all these Christians are looking at the United States. Jesus was Jewish, prophecy is ALMOST exclusive to Eretz Yisrael (the land of Israel or surrounding countries) and just because the United States has had some storms and fires... this is the sign we all wait for? Christians are being beheaded, crucified, raped and tortured in various places around the world and their families are lucky to make our prayers lists and we focus on our little part of the world?

I am not saying these are NOT signs... I am saying we ALL KNOW we are living in the end times... that time is short... so let's stop wasting time looking for MORE SIGNS and start doing what we have been called to do!
And all of this is happening at the same time. Wake Up! Yes these things happen. BUT NOT ALL AT THE SAME TIME! Christians being beheaded and persecuted is also a sign! :doh::sigh: Lord Jesus was specific. He said when you see all of these thing happen, look up, for your redemption draws nigh. That is simple instructions for believers, Jew and Gentile believers. We are called to preach Repent! For the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand, just as Lord instructed.
 
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Ken Rank

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And all of this is happening at the same time. Wake Up! Yes these things happen. BUT NOT ALL AT THE SAME TIME! Christians being beheaded and persecuted is also a sign! :doh::sigh: Lord Jesus was specific. He said when you see all of these thing happen, look up, for your redemption draws nigh. That is simple instructions for believers, Jew and Gentile believers. We are called to preach Repent! For the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand, just as Lord instructed.
Did you read what I said? I really think you just skimmed over looking for something to rip on. I said, "I am not saying these are NOT signs." Got that? I also said that we are Amero-centric and think all prophecy runs through us which is arrogant and I will add that an evil and adulterous generation seeks after signs. We have seen the signs (you might read that again) and we know the times in which we live. So... do we continue looking for MORE signs or do the work we have been called to do? You seem to want to yell at me to wake up and look for more signs like you are... and I believe I have been warned without the need to KEEP BEING TOLD as so many others seem to need or want and am WIDE AWAKE to the unrighteous generation in which we live. Go to work... stop looking for more signs. :)
 
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sdowney717

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Hi, SDowney. I'm honored by your words.

"Coming-as-a-thief", works with His coming at the start of the vials. Revelation jumps around in time, and it fits "I'm coming when all this happens".

"All this stuff is going to happen when I come, so be ready!"

What do you think about the "First Resurrection" in Rev20, applied to 1Thess4:15-17? Tim LaHaye offered a "STAGED rapture" (stage one Pre-Trib, stage two resurrection of the dead post-Trib, stage three THEN all believers who survived the Trib). But that would still have many living precede (by seven years!) the dead -- and Paul said in 1Thess4 "the living shall not precede the dead!" It only works if the "First Resurrection" is a single event, preceding the rapture of the living.

Doesn't it?

LaHaye's (and Jenkin's) "Leftbehind Series" founded on the righteous being taken in Matt24:40-41; in Lk17 the taken ones are thrown to vultures. Oops...

The Left Behind series is a deceiving fiction.
Exactly, those taken are fed to birds of prey, so then headed to destruction are those as was in the days of Noah and the flood came and took them ALL away, so shall it be in the days of the Son of Man. His disciple ask where are they taken? Christ says where the eagles are so they will be consumed as prey in His Day when He returns.

Where the corpse is the eagles will gather.
Refer Matthew 24:28, ptoma in the greek, is carcass, so then the wicked dead will be gathered for destruction.

The KJV translates Strong's G4430 in the following manner: dead body (3x), carcase (1x), corpse (1x).

None of the meaning here has to do with salvation, but these are the fallen wicked dead.
  1. a fall, downfall
    1. metaph. a failure, defeat, calamity

    2. an error, lapse into sin
  2. that which has fallen
    1. the fallen body of one dead or slain, a corpse, a carcase
Genesis 1:1 (KJV) (Blue Letter Bible links always show like this here)

Eagles-Vultures eat the dead. These birds are part of the great supper of God.

Revelation 19:16-20New King James Version (NKJV)
16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

The Beast and His Armies Defeated
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people,free and slave, both small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Luke 17

26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife.33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

And Matthew 24,

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
 
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sdowney717

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Luke 17:37 σῶμα is translated as body, which here means a dead body.
Transliteration
sōma
Pronunciation
sō'-mä σῴζω (G4982)
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: body (144x), bodily (1x), slave (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. the body both of men or animals
    1. a dead body or corpse

    2. the living body
      1. of animals
  2. the bodies of planets and of stars (heavenly bodies)

  3. is used of a (large or small) number of men closely united into one society, or family as it were; a social, ethical, mystical body
    1. so in the NT of the church
  4. that which casts a shadow as distinguished from the shadow itself
 
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Ben johnson

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The Left Behind series is a deceiving fiction.
Exactly, those taken are fed to birds of prey, so then headed to destruction are those as was in the days of Noah and the flood came and took them ALL away, so shall it be in the days of the Son of Man. His disciple ask where are they taken? Christ says where the eagles are so they will be consumed as prey in His Day when He returns.

Where the corpse is the eagles will gather.
Refer Matthew 24:28, ptoma in the greek, is carcass, so then the wicked dead will be gathered for destruction.

The KJV translates Strong's G4430 in the following manner: dead body (3x), carcase (1x), corpse (1x).

None of the meaning here has to do with salvation, but these are the fallen wicked dead.
  1. a fall, downfall
    1. metaph. a failure, defeat, calamity

    2. an error, lapse into sin
  2. that which has fallen
    1. the fallen body of one dead or slain, a corpse, a carcase
Genesis 1:1 (KJV) (Blue Letter Bible links always show like this here)

Eagles-Vultures eat the dead. These birds are part of the great supper of God.

Revelation 19:16-20New King James Version (NKJV)
16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

The Beast and His Armies Defeated
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people,free and slave, both small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Luke 17

26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife.33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

And Matthew 24,

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
Yup, that's what it says. I got started on Christian message boards in about 1999, "Leftbehind Message Board". You could actually talk with Jerry Jenkins.

I posted that the leftbehind were RIGHTEOUS, and those taken were WICKED -- and they could not deny it. But I also said "there are those who have been led to Jesus through the books; I am confident Jesus will correct those who seek Him, and I cannot condemn that which does good." My posts were kind, they never banned me.

(If you look at "Internet ARchive", they have some pages from the old board, and someone named "Ben Johnson" has a whole thread "How can they do that?")

Good post, SDowney...
 
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