What is a pro-choice Christian?

SkyWriting · Sep 23, 2017

SkyWriting said: ↑
Well, If I command you not to cheat or steal, is that not subjective?

Douglas Hendrickson said:
You telling me to do something may well be your subjective choice. That is not what the Scriptures are about, they are about God telling us what to do, writing such in our hearts even.

Yes. Do not cheat. Do not lie. Do not steal. All subjective.
If it's not subjective for you, then how else will you apply it?

Leviticus 19:11 "'Do not steal. "'Do not lie. "'Do not deceive

Leviticus 25:17 Do not cheat each other,

The Brown Brink · Sep 23, 2017

Douglas Hendrickson said:
The reality is also many Christians with a very "pro-flesh" attitude and argumenting (I do not say they generally have actual arguments.) They need to be enlightened.

By always promoting wanton flesh (without bounds or any thought of the state of the planet) they appear to be really against Creation.

Aw, I don't think flesh isn't "wanton."

People need people.
It's natural.

But there comes a time when our intelligence must kick in...to save us.

That's where Jesus comes in.

The Brown Brink · Sep 23, 2017

Jesus was a genius.

Oldmantook · Sep 23, 2017

SkyWriting said:
Scripture teaches that each person defines Sin for them.
The law is subjective to your heart and mind.

Psalm 119
33 Teach me, O LORD, the way of Your statutes, And I shall observe it to the end.
34 Give me understanding, that I may observe your law and keep it with all my heart.

Psalm 119:73
Your hands made me and fashioned me;
Give me understanding,
that I may learn Your commandments.

No. God defines what is sin through the Law. Each person does not define sin for himself/herself. Ps 119 asks God to give us understanding of his statutes as HE DEFINES THEM - not how we define them. The law is never subjective.

Douglas Hendrickson · Sep 23, 2017

The Brown Brink said:
Aw, I don't think flesh isn't "wanton."

People need people.
It's natural.

But there comes a time when our intelligence must kick in...to save us.

That's where Jesus comes in.

Some flesh is wanton, some is not. I certainly didn't say all flesh is wanton.

Seems that born very poor in places that have little good employment for it is very wanton, and should truthfully never have been born.

Douglas Hendrickson · Sep 23, 2017

SkyWriting said:
Yes, each person decides if they have
or are currently sinning against God.
Each person decides what Sin is, for them.

That may be.

But they may be wrong, or not.

Sin (like anything in the entire world) is what it is. What anyone thinks it is may be quite another thing.

One's view of sin is probably something especially subjective in the sense one is likely to be biased about it, to favor what one likes, likely to have one's own special views that are not in accord with reality, not in accord with the reality of what is not good for them, not in accord with GOD'S LAW.

SkyWriting · Sep 23, 2017

Oldmantook said:
No. God defines what is sin through the Law. Each person does not define sin for himself/herself. Ps 119 asks God to give us understanding of his statutes as HE DEFINES THEM - not how we define them. The law is never subjective.

The law is subjective. Your absolutes have melted like snow.

Leviticus 19:11 "'Do not steal. "'Do not lie. "'Do not deceive

Leviticus 25:17 Do not cheat each other,

“But I say: Anyone who even looks at a woman with lust in his eye has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Matthew 5:28, TLB)

10but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.

But lets get to the brass tacks:
Galatians 5:14 The entire Law is fulfilled in a single decree: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

This defines subjectivity. The entire law is based on how you wish to be treated by others. God doesn't even include Himself by name in the equation for you to follow.
He considers Himself to be Love.

Douglas Hendrickson · Sep 23, 2017

SkyWriting said:
The law is subjective. Your absolutes have melted like snow.

Leviticus 19:11 "'Do not steal. "'Do not lie. "'Do not deceive

Leviticus 25:17 Do not cheat each other,

A funny post.

What is non-absolute about those prohibitions?

SkyWriting · Sep 23, 2017

Douglas Hendrickson said:
A funny post.

What is non-absolute about those prohibitions?

You are asking me
to define cheating
for you?

What if I think cell phone use at work is ok?
What if I think prayer at work is ok?
What if I think a conversation with someone besides your spouse is ok?
What if I think low profits are ok?
High profits?
Not documenting all tax write-offs?

Galatians 5:14 The entire Law is fulfilled in a single decree: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

That's my call. And that's your call.

Douglas Hendrickson · Sep 23, 2017

SkyWriting said:
You are asking me
to define cheating
for you?

What if I think cell phone use at work is ok?
What if I think prayer at work is ok?
What if I think a conversation with someone besides your spouse is ok?
What if I think low profits are ok?
High profits?
Not documenting all tax write-offs?

Galatians 5:14 The entire Law is fulfilled in a single decree: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

That's my call. And that's your call.

No, I am not asking for a definition of "cheating."

Or even "sin."
Are you suggesting the definition is relative?

BTW, I just discovered there are two types of sin - that of conceiving, and that of pregnancy.

"Oh a Christ shift oh of course."

Douglas Hendrickson · Sep 23, 2017

SkyWriting said:
Galatians 5:14 The entire Law is fulfilled in a single decree: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

That's my call. And that's your call.

Yes so, "the entire law" is what? Is all the individual laws, of course.

I don't care much about your various ways of thinking, by the way.
(That is, in what way are they even relevant to the topic of sin?)

AvaLynn · Sep 23, 2017

SkyWriting said:
So where did you learn that from? Gluttony is certainly a judgment call,
as are some of the other offences, like working on a Saturday.

Exodus 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Leviticus 20:27 “Men and women among you who act as mediums or who consult the spirits of the dead must be put to death by stoning. They are guilty of a capital offense.”

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death.

Exodus 21:16 Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.

Leviticus 24:16 Anyone who blasphemes the Name of the LORD must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any native-born Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the Name of the LORD must be put to death.

Exodus 22:19 Whoever lies with an animal shall be put to death.

Leviticus 20:10 If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Again, like I said, only God decides who lives and who dies. These verses you quoted are commandments FROM GOD. He told the people to do this. They were following His orders. He had a reason for those commands. I am choosing not to take a babies life. It's murder. If the women doesn't want to be pregnant or be in a situation where she has to carry a child, then she doesn't have to. It's irresponsible to have intercourse without thinking of the consequences after. It's not just affecting her, but the baby as well. I will choose not to have intercourse until I'm married because it's the responsible thing to do. Women that have sex irresponsibly should have to do with the consequences.

Oldmantook · Sep 23, 2017

SkyWriting said:
The law is subjective. Your absolutes have melted like snow.

Leviticus 19:11 "'Do not steal. "'Do not lie. "'Do not deceive

Leviticus 25:17 Do not cheat each other,

“But I say: Anyone who even looks at a woman with lust in his eye has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Matthew 5:28, TLB)

10but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.

But lets get to the brass tacks:
Galatians 5:14 The entire Law is fulfilled in a single decree: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

This defines subjectivity. The entire law is based on how you wish to be treated by others. God doesn't even include Himself by name in the equation for you to follow.
He considers Himself to be Love.

Tragically, your understanding of the scriptures is faulty. LOVE = God telling us what is sin by defining what is right or wrong so that we understand what constitutes sin. If you have children, as a father or mother you presumably instruct your children in distinguishing right from wrong. You don't just allow your children to define for themselves right from wrong do you? Yet you claim that each person defines sin for themselves. Is that not ludicrous? Therefore, God COMMANDS us not to cheat or lie. He does not "suggest" that we not cheat or lie and leave it to our subjective whim or FEELINGS whether we should obey him or not. If the God's commands were subjective as you falsely allege, then every person would be free to define adultery however they wish. Most I suspect would define adultery as the physical act of committing adultery. However, Jesus defined adultery as anyone who looks with lust at another person. So what say you; do you define adultery as the world defines adultery or you define the sin of adultery according to how Jesus defines it?

As far as your brass tacks argument goes, indeed the entire law is summed up in loving our neighbor however it never means condoning their sin does it? I assume you can love your neighbor and still point out the error of their ways correct? If your neighbor informs you that he is broke and going to rob a bank do you not tell him that it is wrong to steal (8th Commandment) and warn him not to do it? Or do you not say anything because you claim to "love" him?? The loving thing to do as a Christian would be to warn him not to steal as God commands and give him money. That is the loving and responsible to do as a Christian - not to ignore sin or let people go down the path of sin when you of all people should know what God defines as sin.

SkyWriting · Sep 23, 2017

Oldmantook said:
As far as your brass tacks argument goes, indeed the entire law is summed up in loving our neighbor however it never means condoning their sin does it? I assume you can love your neighbor and still point out the error of their ways correct?

If you tell me that you walk around your neighborhood
pointing out sins, then I'll have to point to you as a liar.

Assuming I am wrong, and you are compelled to point
out your neighbors sins, then you must want them to
do the same to you.

So if I see you asking neighbors and brothers for correction
around you neighborhood and here in the forum, then I must
admit that you are doing to others just as you'd like them
to criticize you.

But I'm not yet seeing any evidence of you seeking correction.
This is required before you begin finding fault in others.
And scripture has strong guidelines for such correction
efforts as well. You must first consult with elders.

SkyWriting · Sep 23, 2017

Oldmantook said:
You don't just allow your children to define for themselves right from wrong do you? Yet you claim that each person defines sin for themselves. Is that not ludicrous? Therefore, God COMMANDS us not to cheat or lie.

And it's up to you how to apply that.
And my way is different from yours.
And that is the definition of subjective.
My opinion of lying or cheating is based
on my background and experiences and opinion.

And each parent teaches their own version of
lying and cheating to their kids.

SkyWriting · Sep 23, 2017

Douglas Hendrickson said:
BTW, I just discovered there are two types of sin - that of conceiving, and that of pregnancy.

I fully confess ignorance.
I had no idea either of those was a sin.
I learn so many interesting opinions here, I can't keep up.

SkyWriting · Sep 23, 2017

Douglas Hendrickson said:
No, I am not asking for a definition of "cheating."

God asks us not to Cheat,
and cheating is a relative term
based on each person's opinion.

Douglas Hendrickson · Sep 23, 2017

SkyWriting said:
I fully confess ignorance.
I had no idea either of those was a sin.
I learn so many interesting opinions here, I can't keep up.

Just so nobody gets too out of joint, I don't say those are the only sins.

Fantine · Sep 23, 2017

Oy! The bottom line is that until pro-lifers earn the respect of pro-choicers by showing them they demonstrate care for the living, all the verses they quote won't mean a thing.

I know that some, perhaps even many, pro-lifers do good. Lots of times it's with the centers they work with, so they will help babies and toddlers and mothers...

But to earn pro-choicers' respect they have to do it in the ways pro-choicers will understand. And that means working for a fair, equitable, and just society. Pro-choicers have seen how private charity has worked in the first 5+ millenia of mankind's existence, and how it continues to work in third world countries, where babies and children starve and die of malaria and other curable illnesses and girls are raped getting water from the wells. And yes, there are good people to whose organizations I contribute trying to alleviate these conditions---as unsuccessfully as in the first five+ millenia.

And so liberals are interested in the whole person through the rest of life. Health care. Education. Fairness to immigrants and refugees. Diplomacy not war. Clean air and water, sustainable energy. And we just don't see it.

Where do I stand? I stand with the Democrats because I believe that only when we live in a just society will we see an end to abortion. I have gotten pretty politically involved since the disastrous election of Trump, whom I believe threatens the very survival of our planet. And when my friends talk abortion, I tell them that it's a losing issue that is probably costing us crucial points in elections, and that if we work for creating a just society problem pregnancies will take care of themselves in most cases. They are unconvinced, because they know that once babies are born, promises of help evaporate in a puff of smoke.

Wouldn't it be great to work together? But you're never going to get pro-choicers to change if you support candidates who goad and taunt leaders of nuclear powers and threaten the destruction of the whole world...for some reason, they don't think that's a very pro-life thing to do. Neither do I.

FreeinChrist · Sep 23, 2017

MOD HAT

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What is a pro-choice Christian?

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