What is a pro-choice Christian?

You know...
I don't even think about what conception "might" mean.
I deal with reality.

The reality is a burgeoned planet.
We can't even take care of the babies we've already got.
Is it humane to bring more?

AvaLynn said:

There is such a thing as right and wrong. God gave us the Ten Commandments so that we didn't lie, cheat or murder. We have a choice not to do these things, but we obviously know where God stands and that he doesn't want us to do them. I feel that having an abortion is wrong. It's selfish to take that babies life because you don't want to care for it. There is always adoption. It's ironic to call it pro- choice because the baby doesn't have any choice. It's dying and that's wrong.

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If you believe that, then you have adopted how many babies and saved them?

Douglas Hendrickson said:

It should be obvious to anyone that, "At conception, a new human being is formed," is FALSE.

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The science says that each fertalized egg is a unique human individual,
only partly matched with it's host mother.

Oldmantook said:

It appears that you believe in moral relativity which is totally unbiblical as your anthropomorphic world view does not conform with the theocentric world view that Scripture teaches.

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Scripture teaches that each person defines Sin for them.
The law is subjective to your heart and mind.

Psalm 119
33 Teach me, O LORD, the way of Your statutes, And I shall observe it to the end.
34 Give me understanding, that I may observe your law and keep it with all my heart.

Psalm 119:73
Your hands made me and fashioned me;
Give me understanding,
that I may learn Your commandments.

SkyWriting said:

The science says that each fertalized egg is a unique human individual,
only partly matched with it's host mother.

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It is true that the fertilized egg we are talking about is human, and it is true that it has some sort of individuation, is flesh (when it is, ie. in the fetus) that has distinctive DNA.
And it is not some new part of the body of the woman in which it exists.

But certainly no science would say that just because it is unique human flesh it is a human being. That is, the definition of "human being," a member of the species "human being," is not simply something having human DNA (and not being something else having different human DNA).

For science, i.e. biology, there are definite features quite beyond DNA for identifying when there is an organism, the member of a species. A new animal, of whatever species it may be.

SkyWriting said:

Scripture teaches that each person defines Sin for them.
The law is subjective to your heart and mind.

Psalm 119
33 Teach me, O LORD, the way of Your statutes, And I shall observe it to the end.
34 Give me understanding, that I may observe your law and keep it with all my heart.

Psalm 119:73
Your hands made me and fashioned me;
Give me understanding,
that I may learn Your commandments.

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Presumably you mean, "defines "sin" for its own self?

Anyway, these Scriptures do NOT show that. It is GOD'S LAW that is indicated in your verse 34. "Your statutes," "Your commandments."
Not something originating in human hearts and minds, but to be kept in heart and mind and reality. To be observed, not created. Not subjective.

The Brown Brink said:

You know...
I don't even think about what conception "might" mean.
I deal with reality.

The reality is a burgeoned planet.
We can't even take care of the babies we've already got.
Is it humane to bring more?

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The reality is also many Christians with a very "pro-flesh" attitude and argumenting (I do not say they generally have actual arguments.) They need to be enlightened.

By always promoting wanton flesh (without bounds or any thought of the state of the planet) they appear to be really against Creation.

Douglas Hendrickson said:

Presumably you mean, "defines "sin" for its own self?

Anyway, these Scriptures do NOT show that. It is GOD'S LAW that is indicated in your verse 34. "Your statutes," "Your commandments."
Not something originating in human hearts and minds, but to be kept in heart and mind and reality. To be observed, not created. Not subjective.

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Well, If I command you not to cheat or steal, is that not subjective?
I see people use their cell phones at work all the time. Are they
all headed to Hell for stealing company time?

Douglas Hendrickson said:

Not something originating in human hearts and minds, but to be kept in heart and mind and reality. To be observed, not created. Not subjective.

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How you apply these laws is then up to me and my objective standards I found in scripture?
Like if I see you looking at another woman, I call you out on your adultery?
What if you don't Tithe? That's easy to check on your tax records.

Douglas Hendrickson said:

But certainly no science would say that just because it is unique human flesh it is a human being.

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All Science fields do define humans based on the biology of the form.

Homo is the genus that comprises the species Homo sapiens, which includes modern humans, as well as several extinct species classified as ancestral to or closely related to modern humans, most notably Homo erectus

SkyWriting said:

The kids have no options over being loved or not. They are stuck with
the environment the mother wants to provide. Even dad may opt out.
There are lots of teens that don't want to live. Children in sub-Saharan
Africa are more than 14 times more likely to die before the age of 5 than
children in developed regions. That must be a hoot!

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Look, in the end, it's not my job to play God. He is the only one who should be able to choose who lives and who dies. I should not be the one to take away that babies life and choices. Only God knows what their life will be like. For someone to prematurely kill the baby is murder and it is playing God. I'm not God and I don't decide who lives and who dies. I am a sinful human being who makes mistakes and that power is not given to me. God can turn a bad childhood into an amazing life, it's not my call to say that nothing good could happen in that babies life. Sorry, but none of us are God.

SkyWriting said:

Well, If I command you not to cheat or steal, is that not subjective?
I see people use their cell phones at work all the time. Are they
all headed to Hell for stealing company time?

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You telling me to do something may well be your subjective choice.
That is not what the Scriptures are about, they are about God telling us what to do, writing such in our hearts even. Does NOT mean it is all a matter of each person's subjective making, only recognizing the commands (laws) and obeying. Or not.
Making the laws is not our individual subjective domain, especially not the laws of God.

SkyWriting said:

How you apply these laws is then up to me and my objective standards I found in scripture?
Like if I see you looking at another woman, I call you out on your adultery?

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Why would my application of laws ever be up to you?

I would think "looking at another woman" is NOT (in itself) adultery.
Would it not have to include THE FULL INTENT TO ENGAGE IN SEXUAL INTERCOURSE that is actually carried out for the looking to be anything of (actual) adultery? Scripture speaks of the "looking to lust after" where the term used for "lust" is the same as for "covet" - fully wanting to possess. Not some rather transient and temporary looking at. Mt. 5:28.

The context here is where a man is counselled to be reconciled to a brother - a warning that hatred may lead to murder, and likewise also that looking at a woman lustfully is best avoided, where "lustfully" means going on to the actual intercourse of actual adultery.

The mods have taken several days off, I think. So I will go through this entire forum, ignoring certain posters, as applicable. Thank God for authentic Christians, Spiritually birthed, born again, who listen to the Holy Spirit.

parousia70 said: ↑
Well, prior to conception, the Egg is undeniably alive, and human, as is the Sperm. There is no "death" or "non life" that precedes conception, nor does conception result in the "Death" of either the sperm or egg. To claim "New" human life begins at conception is erroneous.

SPF said:

This is simply not true, and not accepted by any scientific or medical mind that I am aware of. Neither a sperm nor an ovum have any potential on their own to become anything more than what they are. Sperm and Ovum are things that the body produces, which are not new human beings.

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It is said what parousia70 said above "is simply not true." But the claims then made are not anything that contradict what parousia70 said. He/she did not not talk about sperm or ovum "on their own," but about conception, when they are together. He certainly did not say that sperm and ovum are not things that are produced by "the human body," well the truth is that they are produced by two different bodies, but the point is the same.
And of course he did not claim that either sperm or egg are human beings.

So what "parousia70" said stands as true - the response to it quoted here has to be considered what is "not true," at least in terms of having any relevance to it.

Thing to be kept in mind is that "human life" does not point to the same reality as "human being."
Being clear on that point might help one avoid much confusion. (A human life is the same as "human being," and not the same as "human life.")
In case anyone did not notice, being very precise in discussion of these matters is essential.

AvaLynn said:

Look, in the end, it's not my job to play God. He is the only one who should be able to choose who lives and who dies. I should not be the one to take away that babies life and choices. Only God knows what their life will be like. For someone to prematurely kill the baby is murder and it is playing God. I'm not God and I don't decide who lives and who dies. I am a sinful human being who makes mistakes and that power is not given to me. God can turn a bad childhood into an amazing life, it's not my call to say that nothing good could happen in that babies life. Sorry, but none of us are God.

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Well, that lady I know decided she could not carry a child to term nor care for her baby.
It's a decision a woman determines for her own situation. Some are up to the task.
Some are not. You want to have a good support structure in place including
your own health determination.

Douglas Hendrickson said:

Thing to be kept in mind is that "human life" does not point to the same reality as "human being." Being clear on that point might help one avoid much confusion. (A human life is the same as "human being," and not the same as "human life.")

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Science just uses the term "Human."
If you were a space traveler looking for life,
a fetus is just a small version of the human.

The major stages of the human life cycle are defined as follows:

• Pregnancy. The development of a zygote into an embryo and then into a fetus in preparation for childbirth.
• Infancy. The earliest part of childhood. It is the period from birth through age one.
• Toddler years. Occur during ages two and three and are the end of early childhood.
• Childhood. Takes place from ages four to eight.
• Puberty. The period from ages nine to thirteen, which is the beginning of adolescence.
• Older adolescence. The stage that takes place between ages fourteen and eighteen.
• Adulthood. The period from adolescence to the end of life and begins at age nineteen.
• Middle age. The period of adulthood that stretches from age thirty-one to fifty.
• Senior years, or old age. Extend from age fifty-one until the end of life.
  
  The Human Life Cycle

@Douglas Hendrickson

Why would my application of laws ever be up to you?I would think "looking at another woman" is NOT (in itself) adultery. Would it not have to include THE FULL INTENT TO ENGAGE IN SEXUAL INTERCOURSE that is actually carried out for the looking to be anything of (actual) adultery? Scripture speaks of the "looking to lust after" where the term used for "lust" is the same as for "covet" - fully wanting to possess. Not some rather transient and temporary looking at. Mt. 5:28.The context here is where a man is counselled to be reconciled to a brother - a warning that hatred may lead to murder, and likewise also that looking at a woman lustfully is best avoided, where "lustfully" means going on to the actual intercourse of actual adultery.

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So then Sin is subjective based on your own situation and views.
That's the point I've been making for a while now.

AvaLynn said:

Look, in the end, it's not my job to play God. He is the only one who should be able to choose who lives and who dies.

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So where did you learn that from? Gluttony is certainly a judgment call,
as are some of the other offences, like working on a Saturday.

Exodus 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Leviticus 20:27 “Men and women among you who act as mediums or who consult the spirits of the dead must be put to death by stoning. They are guilty of a capital offense.”

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death.

Exodus 21:16 Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.

Leviticus 24:16 Anyone who blasphemes the Name of the LORD must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any native-born Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the Name of the LORD must be put to death.

Exodus 22:19 Whoever lies with an animal shall be put to death.

Leviticus 20:10 If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Douglas Hendrickson said:

Presumably you mean, "defines "sin" for its own self?

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Yes, each person decides if they have
or are currently sinning against God.
Each person decides what Sin is, for them.