women pastors.

Zoii

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So detached from reality. I see this nonsense time n time again here. Like.... surpriseeeee..... im your boss, im your doctor, im your divorce lawyer, and im your wife n earn more than you.... youre all saying what women cant do and its laughable... you must have blinkers on your eyes. ... and obviously shocking to you is women are pastors and...guess what a woman is the Anglican Archbishop in Australia. You guys can lament all you want but youre not up with current affairs.
 
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Sammy-San

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1 Timothy 2:11-15

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety

These are some of the most hated words in scripture. Yet they are inspired by the same Holy Spirit who caused John to write that God is love. There is no mistaking what Paul is saying here: He doesn't allow women to teach or be in authority over a man. He gives two reasons for this: One, that Adam was formed first, and two that Eve was the one deceived and not Adam.

That isn't politically correct, and it's sad that this is the lens we view this through, rather than what Paul is saying here. He isn't a bigot; didn't he write that there is no male or female in Christ? He doesn't think women are less than men in Christ. He is writing this for the reasons he gave, and they are significant and weighty reasons which have great implications for the way the church does ministry in the world. To ignore them is a sin, and it will have consequences.

What is your response to this?Common objections: women are more easily deceived - Women in Ministry


If women are more easily deceived and fall prey to the enemy’s deception easier than men, then why would the church allow women who are easily deceived to teach little children who by their childish nature are easily manipulated and deceived? Also why would the church allow women to teach other women who would supposedly also be ripe for deception? Wouldn’t the best ones for women to teach be men who would easily recognize deception and thus be able to correct them? Yet men are the only ones who are forbidden to have women teach them if we believe the complementarian understanding.
 
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thesunisout

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Zoii

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My response is that this is exactly what Paul is talking about. When Eve turned from Gods command she believed the lie. When you refuse to believe the truth you will believe all manner of foolishness, and that is what that article consists of primarily. They have failed to rightly divide the word of truth.
Well now if you want to go back to Adam and Eve - Eve was deceived by the snake - Adam wasnt deceived, he knowlingly enetered into the wrong doing. Frankly I think Eve gets a bad rap - she was conned, but Adam was the one who deliberately disobeyed. So who do you trust - the honest person who got conned by an ex-male angel, or the person who deliberately disregards the law for his own gratification.

I'd want the former thank you.
 
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thesunisout

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Well now if you want to go back to Adam and Eve - Eve was deceived by the snake - Adam wasnt deceived, he knowlingly enetered into the wrong doing. Frankly I think Eve gets a bad rap - she was conned, but Adam was the one who deliberately disobeyed. So who do you trust - the honest person who got conned by an ex-male angel, or the person who deliberately disregards the law for his own gratification.

I'd want the former thank you.

We don't know why Adam chose to follow Eve into sin, because the text doesn't tell us. It only tells us he wasn't deceived. Perhaps he did it out of love for Eve, not wanting to be separated from her. We don't know for sure, but we do know that he wasn't a sinner and didn't have the carnal impulses that we have.

In any case, we could debate the relative merits but the fact is, Paul was inspired by God to write what he did which means it was Gods will that the church is ordered that way. Don't let the politically correct culture turn you off from understanding the truth of God being presented to you by the apostle Paul. You should inquire of God about it rather than dismiss it because it doesn't agree with the ways of men.
 
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Zoii

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We don't know why Adam chose to follow Eve into sin, because the text doesn't tell us. It only tells us he wasn't deceived. Perhaps he did it out of love for Eve, not wanting to be separated from her. We don't know for sure, but we do know that he wasn't a sinner and didn't have the carnal impulses that we have.

In any case, we could debate the relative merits but the fact is, Paul was inspired by God to write what he did which means it was Gods will that the church is ordered that way. Don't let the politically correct culture turn you off from understanding the truth of God being presented to you by the apostle Paul. You should inquire of God about it rather than dismiss it because it doesn't agree with the ways of men.
I reject the views that eliminate women in leadership. I could debate it with you and explain why, but for now I will personalize it to just myself. I do not trust approaching a male pastor. I feel completely at ease with a female pastor. You are advocating to me well too bad if you dont want to see a male pastor then go away because you cant see a female pastor. The things is - they exist and I do see them and am grateful for it. Espousing why they should or shouldnt exist is wasting oxygen because its already happening.
 
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thesunisout

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I reject the views that eliminate women in leadership. I could debate it with you and explain why, but for now I will personalize it to just myself. I do not trust approaching a male pastor. I feel completely at ease with a female pastor. You are advocating to me well too bad if you dont want to see a male pastor then go away because you cant see a female pastor. The things is - they exist and I do see them and am grateful for it. Espousing why they should or shouldnt exist is wasting oxygen because its already happening.

I'm not telling you what to do, I am telling you what the word of God says. It's His word which is important, not our opinions.

It's already happening, and so are homosexual pastors and many other things which are condemned by Gods word. That isn't a good reason to do something.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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I'm not telling you what to do, I am telling you what the word of God says. It's His word which is important, not our opinions.

It's already happening, and so are homosexual pastors and many other things which are condemned by Gods word. That isn't a good reason to do something.
Neither is following the law in rejection of the spiritual
 
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thesunisout

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Neither is following the law in rejection of the spiritual
Why do you think I am doing that? Paul isn't teaching us to follow the law of Moses here. Do you agree that there are commands Christians need to follow?
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Why do you think I am doing that? Paul isn't teaching us to follow the law of Moses here. Do you agree that there are commands Christians need to follow?
I'm sure you know that what is said is a matter of interpretation of laws that relates to many things like culture etc. whereas the spiritual interpretation that Paul was an advocate of doesn't contradict with anything of the bible.
 
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Zoii

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I'm not telling you what to do, I am telling you what the word of God says. It's His word which is important, not our opinions.

It's already happening, and so are homosexual pastors and many other things which are condemned by Gods word. That isn't a good reason to do something.
Then if you want a good reason I can offer you many. For try these two... many women do not want to consult with a male pastor. The second I offer is male pastors have far too often betrayed trust on so many levels... paedophilia is but one example... not so, so far, with female pastors. Do you really think a rape victm cares about some twisted view of a verse from the bible when she consults a female pastor?
 
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thesunisout

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I'm sure you know that what is said is a matter of interpretation of laws that relates to many things like culture etc. whereas the spiritual interpretation that Paul was an advocate of doesn't contradict with anything of the bible.

There is no private interpretation of scripture. Some things in the bible are not totally clear, but this isn't one of them. The problem isn't understanding what it says because it is very clear. The problem is that people don't like what it says and so they invent another meaning to suit their preferences.
 
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thesunisout

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Then if you want a good reason I can offer you many. For try these two... many women do not want to consult with a male pastor. The second I offer is male pastors have far too often betrayed trust on so many levels... paedophilia is but one example... not so, so far, with female pastors. Do you really think a rape victm cares about some twisted view of a verse from the bible when she consults a female pastor?

I understand what you're saying, Zoii. I can understand why a woman would feel that way. But that isn't the way we determine what is true. The truth is more important than our feelings, regardless of how we got them.
 
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Zoii

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I understand what you're saying, Zoii. I can understand why a woman would feel that way. But that isn't the way we determine what is true. The truth is more important than our feelings, regardless of how we got them.
The truth according to who. Dont say the bible because even in CF you will get different interpretations on pretty much every single verse including the verses you quoted. So who is telling me the correct version... just you n those who agree with you? The fact is several denominations dont support your claims and endorse female pastors. Am I sinning because I get their counsel and refuse to endorse your version on each verse in the bible?

The thrust against women here in this site is exhausting
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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There is no private interpretation of scripture. Some things in the bible are not totally clear, but this isn't one of them. The problem isn't understanding what it says because it is very clear. The problem is that people don't like what it says and so they invent another meaning to suit their preferences.
The problem is that most understand the spiritual application but some find the law interpretation to be more beneficial to them. cie la vie
 
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thesunisout

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The truth according to who. Dont say the bible because even in CF you will get different interpretations on pretty much every single verse including the verses you quoted. So who is telling me the correct version... just you n those who agree with you? The fact is several denominations dont support your claims and endorse female pastors. Am I sinning because I get their counsel and refuse to endorse your version on each verse in the bible?

The thrust against women here in this site is exhausting

There is one truth, and it is the Holy Spirit that leads us into that truth. To the extent that men come up with different interpretations of the same scripture is to the extent that they are not listening or even inquiring of the Holy Spirit. He leads us into all truth.

John 16:13

When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come
 
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Sammy-San

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My response is that this is exactly what Paul is talking about. When Eve turned from Gods command she believed the lie. When you refuse to believe the truth you will believe all manner of foolishness, and that is what that article consists of primarily. They have failed to rightly divide the word of truth.

What is your response to this quote?

Also why would the church allow women to teach other women who would supposedly also be ripe for deception? Wouldn’t the best ones for women to teach be men who would easily recognize deception and thus be able to correct them?
 
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1 Timothy 3 provides the criteria for a man who desires to be a pastor. It begins (in the NKJV):

"This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work."

It does not say, "If a person desires..." Why?

Given the cultures of the world at the time, a female "bishop" or pastor would have been seen as ludicrous. When Paul said he thought women ought to remain silent and learn in full submission (1 Timothy 2), he was presenting an idea that would have had some up in arms. "What? A woman is permitted to learn?" That idea would have seemed just as wild in that culture, but that's why Paul (basically) followed it with, "Woah, guys, I still don't think it's a good idea for women to teach." In that culture, men wouldn't listen to a woman who tried to teach a man.

Paul's statements seem misogynistic from our perspective, but he was actually advocating for additional freedoms for women. It's also important to note he puts it in personal terms: "I exhort...I admonish...I do not permit..."

In short, Paul was taking the culture of the day into account, yet advocating for women to learn. In cultures where men don't have a problem being led by women, I don't see why a woman couldn't be a pastor. It's not expressly forbidden by God in the modern day, but was prohibited in a time when the culture would not recognize the value of a woman.

Arguments regarding Eve's sin and Adam's sin made sense in the Judaic mind, but in Galatians, Paul recognized there is no difference in God's eyes for the children of God (Galatians 3:28). He exhorted the Philippians (in Philippians 4:2) to help the women who had "labored with him in the Gospel." Not every woman can lead, nor can every man. But if God does good through a pastor--whatever their sex--then praise God. I see no reason why God could not or would not call a woman to lead, save for if the culture in which she lived would not hear her because of their own arrogance.

Men are certainly meant to be leaders, but in some cases, men have been unwilling to do what women were willing to do. I have seen as much in churches, where entire branches of ministry were dissolved because the church would rather hire a man than give an opportunity for a woman to lead. Oddly, the church I went to that took 1 Timothy 2 as applicable today allowed women to teach children, to sing solos, to be part of choir, to teach other women, and to serve on committees, but would not allow women to teach men.
 
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