Prophecies, chronology, and the timing of these events

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
For example.


Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.


Apparently this will be the case all the way up until the 2nd coming. Or better yet, once the 2nd coming has occurred, this will no longer be the case in the world.

Isaiah 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


Here we see just the opposite of the former passage. This passage states----and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

If the former continues up until the 2nd coming, and that the latter tells us nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more, hasn't it then been determined by chronology that the time specified in Isaiah 2:3-4 has to follow after Matthew 24:6-7 are no longer true?

Why then do some place the time of Matthew 24:6-7 parallel with that of the time of Isaiah 2:4, where it seems rather obvious, that nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, contradicts nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more?

How can both be true at the same time?

Obviously there are Premils and Amils on this board. By placing Isaiah 2:4 post the 2nd coming, based on the argument I just submitted, how can that not prove without a doubt, that between these 2 named positions, Premil would have to be the correct position?
 

Tolworth John

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 10, 2017
8,278
4,680
68
Tolworth
✟369,559.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
What who have omitted is that Jesus said, 'No one knows the day or the hour when the Son of Man will return, except the for the Father.,

So ignorant speculation when Jesus will return is certain of only one fact. What ever date is calculated is 100% wrong.
 
Upvote 0

RC1970

post tenebras lux
Jul 7, 2015
1,903
1,558
✟80,684.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
For example.


Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.


Apparently this will be the case all the way up until the 2nd coming. Or better yet, once the 2nd coming has occurred, this will no longer be the case in the world.

Isaiah 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


Here we see just the opposite of the former passage. This passage states----and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

If the former continues up until the 2nd coming, and that the latter tells us nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more, hasn't it then been determined by chronology that the time specified in Isaiah 2:3-4 has to follow after Matthew 24:6-7 are no longer true?

Why then do some place the time of Matthew 24:6-7 parallel with that of the time of Isaiah 2:4, where it seems rather obvious, that nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, contradicts nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more?

How can both be true at the same time?

Obviously there are Premils and Amils on this board. By placing Isaiah 2:4 post the 2nd coming, based on the argument I just submitted, how can that not prove without a doubt, that between these 2 named positions, Premil would have to be the correct position?
Matthew 24:6-7 occured in the first century, just before 70 AD.
Isaiah 2:4 will occur at the end of the church age, with Jesus' final coming.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What who have omitted is that Jesus said, 'No one knows the day or the hour when the Son of Man will return, except the for the Father.,

So ignorant speculation when Jesus will return is certain of only one fact. What ever date is calculated is 100% wrong.


Did you perhaps mistakenly submit this into the wrong thread? I fail to see what any of this has to with what I submitted in the OP?
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Matthew 24:6-7 occured in the first century, just before 70 AD.
Isaiah 2:4 will occur at the end of the church age, with Jesus' final coming.


We're close on agreement then, except I would hardly place Matthew 24:6-7 as to what only occurred in the first century, just before 70 AD. How can Matthew 24:6-7 not still be equally true today?
 
Upvote 0

RC1970

post tenebras lux
Jul 7, 2015
1,903
1,558
✟80,684.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
We're close on agreement then, except I would hardly place Matthew 24:6-7 as to what only occurred in the first century, just before 70 AD. How can Matthew 24:6-7 not still be equally true today?
Does not have to be premil. Most people don't realize that when the Lord comes in judgement on a people or place, it is a "coming". So there can be more than 2 comings in history. The "2nd coming" idea is inferred, and I believe incorrectly.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Does not have to be premil. Most people don't realize that when the Lord comes in judgement on a people or place, it is a "coming". So there can be more than 2 comings in history. The "2nd coming" idea is inferred, and I believe incorrectly.


The main positions I'm familiar with are Premil and Amil. I'm also somewhat familiar with PostMil, Preterism, and Partial Preterism, though not as familiar with these as I am of Premil and Amil, mainly because I have been in more debates surrounding these two positions than I have been of the others. Since you indicated this wouldn't make your position Premil, though we both agree the passage I brought up in Isaiah 2 fits better post the 2nd coming, what position does this make yours then? An even better question, where do you place the thousand years in Rev 20? Before the 2nd coming, or after the 2nd coming? Because to me, from my perspective, I feel the passage I brought up in Isaiah 2 is referring to this same thousand years in Rev 20.
 
Upvote 0

RC1970

post tenebras lux
Jul 7, 2015
1,903
1,558
✟80,684.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
We're close on agreement then, except I would hardly place Matthew 24:6-7 as to what only occurred in the first century, just before 70 AD. How can Matthew 24:6-7 not still be equally true today?
Also, Matthew 24:6-7 is referring specifically to the events leading up to 70 AD, so applying the same types of things occurring at a different time in history would just be pure speculation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: David Kent
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Waterwerx

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2016
656
255
38
Hazleton, PA
✟56,259.00
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Single
For example.


Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.


Apparently this will be the case all the way up until the 2nd coming. Or better yet, once the 2nd coming has occurred, this will no longer be the case in the world.

Isaiah 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


Here we see just the opposite of the former passage. This passage states----and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

If the former continues up until the 2nd coming, and that the latter tells us nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more, hasn't it then been determined by chronology that the time specified in Isaiah 2:3-4 has to follow after Matthew 24:6-7 are no longer true?

Why then do some place the time of Matthew 24:6-7 parallel with that of the time of Isaiah 2:4, where it seems rather obvious, that nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, contradicts nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more?

How can both be true at the same time?

Obviously there are Premils and Amils on this board. By placing Isaiah 2:4 post the 2nd coming, based on the argument I just submitted, how can that not prove without a doubt, that between these 2 named positions, Premil would have to be the correct position?

The signs listed chronologically in Matthew 24 line up/agree with the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th seal. Isaiah 2:4 obviously does not occur until the end of the tribulation.

We will never know every single detail, but Scripture indicates a majority of people in general will be blind to or preoccupied so much(by vanity, gaming, entertainment, making money, etc.) to the things going on around them, the start of the great tribulation will hit them like a Mack truck hits a deer at 65 mph. The sudden deer in headlights look prior to being turned into road kill a few seconds later...
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Brian Mcnamee
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,024
7,364
60
Indianapolis, IN
✟549,630.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
For example.

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Specifically Jesus was asked about the 2nd coming and the end of the world. Jesus is telling them certain things have to happen, apparently there is a flurry of false Christs, then there are a serious of wars, famines and earthquakes. This part of the prophecy I think is fulfilled with the opening of the seals, A world rule who exalts himself over everything called god, the world conqueror. This is followed successively by world war, world famine and world plague culminating with world pestilence and a great earthquake.

Why then do some place the time of Matthew 24:6-7 parallel with that of the time of Isaiah 2:4, where it seems rather obvious, that nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, contradicts nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more?

How can both be true at the same time?

The eighth century prophets preached both coming judgment on Israel and Judea but never without the promise of restoring Zion, the mountain Jerusalem sits on, to the status of queen of nations. Israel would be judged the prophets warned but following that time of punishment God would again have mercy on Jacob. This time was greatly anticipated in the first century because it still had yet to be fulfilled. Some things have to happen first though:

To go into the clefts of the rocks,
And into the crags of the rugged rocks,
From the terror of the Lord
And the glory of His majesty,
When He arises to shake the earth mightily.

Sever yourselves from such a man,
Whose breath is in his nostrils;
For of what account is he? (Isaiah 2:21,22)
Comparing this to the opening of the sixth seal in Revelations:

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (Rev. 6:15-17)
There's your direct correlation. The promise of the kingdom, specifically the Millennial invariably precedes the prophecies concerning the end times, yet chronologically it follows the tribulation. The promise of God's 'kingdom come' is essential Christian doctrine since it is inextricably linked to the promise of the gospel.

Look at Isaiah 2:10-12 and Isaiah 2:19-21 and then see how those line up with the 6th seal.

What else did Jesus Christ tell happens after the great tribulation?
the tribes - mourn

You beat me to it :) good job.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,024
7,364
60
Indianapolis, IN
✟549,630.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Revelation 7 refers to - four corners
Ezekiel 7 refers to -four corners

What happened in Ezekiel - the worst of the heathen was sent against Israel to destroy it. How was this done? With the destroyer having several types of weapons - similar to the time of the 4th seal.
Yes and I would add that there are weapons mentioned in the first and second seals, the bow and the sword.

In the time of Isaiah, the eight century they were being warned that a time of judgment would come. In Ezekiel's time, The end had finally come:

The author received his call to prophesy in 593 B.C. (1:2), in Babylon (“the land of the Chaldeans”), during the fifth year of King Jehoiachin’s captivity, which began in 597 B.C. (Ezekiel GTY)
Ezekiel saw the fall of Jerusalem and the capture of their king. These things had been prophesied for at least two centuries and now they were being fulfilled:

“Thus says the Lord God:

‘A disaster, a singular disaster;
Behold, it has come!

An end has come,
The end has come;
It has dawned for you;
Behold, it has come! (Ezekiel 7:5,6)
The 'four corners of the land' is a Hebrew idiom for the entire land. If you destroy the four corners of a building the entire thing will fall. Israel had already fallen to Assyria, now Babylon had destroyed Judea. Even in Lamentations though, there is a message of hope:

It is good that he waits silently For the salvation of the LORD. It is good for a man that he should bear The yoke in his youth. Let him sit alone and be silent Since He has laid it on him (Jeremiah 3:26-28)
Grace and peace,
Mark
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,024
7,364
60
Indianapolis, IN
✟549,630.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
3rd seal - a voice
4th seal - the voice
5th seal - last of the Christian martyrs are coming in slain
6th seal - sun black - as in - the sun shall be darkened - and the stars fall - meaning the trib is over
No, actually, this is the beginning of sorrows, the opening of the seals is at the beginning of the tribulation.

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

All these are the beginning of sorrows. (Matt. 24:6-8)
There will still be two more waves of judgment, the trumpets in the middle and the vials of wrath poured out at the end.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Look at Isaiah 2:10-12 and Isaiah 2:19-21 and then see how those line up with the 6th seal.

What else did Jesus Christ tell happens after the great tribulation?
the tribes - mourn


Speaking of chronology then, the verses I supplied in Isaiah 2 in the OP, they precede the verses you supplied in that same chapter, where I basically agree with you, that these verses are referring to a period of time prior to the 2nd coming, the ones you submitted. Does that automatically mean Isaiah 2:3-4 has to precede the 2nd coming as well, since your verses you supplied do? Not if what I showed by comparing Isaiah 2:3-4 with that of Matthew 24:6-7 shows that there would be a contradiction if both occurred during the same time periods. Would you agree or disagree?


Just because Isaiah 2:3-4 in that chapter comes before the verses you supplied, that doesn't necessarily indicate the time being meant in Isaiah 2:3-4 has to precede or at least occur during the same time period in mind per your verses, but could be meaning a time post that time, thus what I have been trying to show via the OP.

BTW, this thread isn't limited to just the passages I supplied in the OP thusfar. This thread is about Prophecies, chronology, and the timing of these events, in general. I have other examples I may also submit at some point.

What I'm trying to determine per this thread, the examples I have used thusfar, can the timing of these prophecies be determined by eliminating contradictions, such as nation against nation vs. nation no longer against nation, therefore telling us the latter can't be true until the former is no longer true first?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Specifically Jesus was asked about the 2nd coming and the end of the world. Jesus is telling them certain things have to happen, apparently there is a flurry of false Christs, then there are a serious of wars, famines and earthquakes. This part of the prophecy I think is fulfilled with the opening of the seals, A world rule who exalts himself over everything called god, the world conqueror. This is followed successively by world war, world famine and world plague culminating with world pestilence and a great earthquake.



The eighth century prophets preached both coming judgment on Israel and Judea but never without the promise of restoring Zion, the mountain Jerusalem sits on, to the status of queen of nations. Israel would be judged the prophets warned but following that time of punishment God would again have mercy on Jacob. This time was greatly anticipated in the first century because it still had yet to be fulfilled. Some things have to happen first though:

To go into the clefts of the rocks,
And into the crags of the rugged rocks,
From the terror of the Lord
And the glory of His majesty,
When He arises to shake the earth mightily.

Sever yourselves from such a man,
Whose breath is in his nostrils;
For of what account is he? (Isaiah 2:21,22)
Comparing this to the opening of the sixth seal in Revelations:

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (Rev. 6:15-17)
There's your direct correlation. The promise of the kingdom, specifically the Millennial invariably precedes the prophecies concerning the end times, yet chronologically it follows the tribulation. The promise of God's 'kingdom come' is essential Christian doctrine since it is inextricably linked to the promise of the gospel.



You beat me to it :) good job.

Grace and peace,
Mark


Unless I'm misunderstanding you somewhere, it seems to me this makes us pretty much in agreement about these things thusfar.
 
Upvote 0