The Sabbath

Further, if you would just read Galations you would see that we are no longer under law

Click to expand...

Further, if you would just read 1John5:1-3

I am not talking about mans laws, I am talking about the
laws (Commandments) of God.

Don't you realize there where pharisees?
And if you know that, have you ever studied who they were,
and still are to this day?
Don't you realize the Jews had written they're own laws/rules/ect. ?
Don't you realize this is what Jesus was talking about?
Do you even know the Jesus wasn't a Jew?
Did you know that Jesus was a Levite, not a Jew?
Did you know that Abraham & Moses were not Jews?

If people could start to understand just some of these things
nobody would get these types of things mixed up all the time.

The Jews had they're own laws, aside from Gods laws......
Gods people (Israel) Not the Jews, are the ones Jesus came
for.

What did Jesus tell these Jews?
You are of your father the devil.....

PLease, please people, look into these things.......

Thanks
Patrick

"I am not talking about mans laws, I am talking about the
laws (Commandments) of God. "

Good, so was Paul in galatians. I really think you need to read up on the 2 things the judizers stressed we see historically. It was 1. circumsicion and probably 2. sabbath law. Paul's response to it was galatians.

One thing I find interesting about this thread, is that Patrick wants to do the Law , pertaining to the Sabbath.

But what about the other posters here, who still want to do other parts of the law, and they themselves think that what they are doing , was not a part of the law.

For instance:

Water cleansing - Water baptizing

The tithe

How many of you who have taken a stand against Patrick's opinion on keeping the Sabbath, are also doers and breakers of the law ? ?

Love IN Christ - Hervey

Mat 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an
hill cannot be hid.

Are you the light of the world?
Or do you hide behind the hill of the world?

Mat 5:15
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under
a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto
all that are in the house.

Are you giving that light of truth?
Or are you trying to blow out that flame?

Mat 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they
may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is
in heaven.

Do you Honour, and obey your Father in Heaven, so that men
see your good works?

Mat 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or
the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Now, if Jesus did not destroy the law, how can He destroy it
through fulfilling it? Or is He lying here?

From Websters Dictionary:
de·stroy
1 : to ruin the structure
2 a : to put out of existence

Main Entry: ful·fill
Variant(s): or ful·fil
1 archaic : to make full
2 a : to put into effect
3 a : to convert into reality
b : to develop the full potentialities of

Greek word for destroy: kataluo
1) to dissolve, disunite
1a) (what has been joined together), to destroy, demolish

Greek word for fulfil: pleroo
1) to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
1a) to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally

Mat 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth
pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the
law, till all be fulfilled.

Mat 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these
least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be
called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever
shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great
in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your
righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the
scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the
kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:23
Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar,
and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against
thee;

HHmmm... Wonder what kind of gift He's talking about here?

Whatever, the choice is yours....

Patrick

Not being a debater, I would like to ask a very honest question. As a woman who was born a gentile, raised a SB, etc. I find that I am leanig very much toward messianic christianity...

I decided to read and study Galatians but I came to this verse:

Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Click to expand...

The question that comes to my mind is this: "If Jesus is living in me, why shouldn't I desire out of love and adoration for what was accomplished on the cross to obey the Law?

Another question, am I not dead to the sinful part of me that would not want to obey G-d to the very best of my ability?

Again, let me stress, I am only beginning to learn about these things and no, we don't keep Sabbath yet...although more than likely I will start...(not out of desire to earn salvation, but because of what Jesus has done for me.)

Linda

I know there are a small handfull of confussing scriptures in Romans and Galatians - as we were warned in 2 Pet 3:15-16...our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are SOME THINGS HARD TO UNDERSTAND which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

So God chose to warn us that these things are hard to understand and twisted by UNTAUGHT AND UNSTABLE people then lets not start there. Those few vague scriptures cannot and do not make void hundreds of plainly obvious scriptures so lets get our foundation built with the simple, plain and obvious before we conquer the difficult - milk them meat - so to speak.

Logic, intelliegence and numerous scriptures tell you:

Christ never sinned
Sin is bad, hurtfull, wrong
There will be NO SIN in the Kingdom? God is incapable of sinning and so will we be.

Would you believe that Christ was living in a serial murderer? And habitual adulterer? A pathological liar?

So, Is anything more important that pleasing God?
Is there anything wrong with erring on the safe side and keeping the commandments? Will God punish you for being honest or honoring your parents?? Will He condemn you for setting aside the 7th day as Holy to Him? On which day you deny your worldy pleasures and keep it Holy as He sanctified it?

Do you have children? Look down on your children as God looks down on you... how would you feel if they tried to null and void all the rules with one little statement, taken out of context and twisted. I can think of dozens of statement that can be taken numerous ways depending on the context and tone.

If you take those scriptures to mean that we don't have to keep the law - they contradict ALL the rest of the bible, hundreds of scriptures that say the law is good and right and necessary in plain language. If you understand them to mean, "Christ died to pay our pentalty for not keeping the law perfectly, as no one has. He suffered the pentalty of death that we earned breaking the law - our faith and His Grace makes up the difference between our works and the awesomeness of eternal salvation - then those obscure scriptures harmoniously fit will all the rest of the bible.

Eternal salvation is worth far more than our little works and deeds can ever amount to, so He makes up the difference. The perfect analogy is your kids, they obey you, clean their rooms and do their chores for 18 years under your roof - does that literaly earn them all the food, love, expense and a trip to college? No way! Your graciousness and love raises those kids. Their obedience was required for peace and order in the house but doesn't amount to much in physical terms. If they were Pharasee they would wash their hands 8 times a day and fold their clothes a certain way and then think they are better than their siblings - you can see how God says YOU CAN't DO ENOUGH ON YOUR OWN - it takes Christs sacrifice and Grace to make up the difference. But when CHrist steps in to do that for you - don't turn around and be a sinner! Shall we then sin that grace may abound CERTAINLY NOT!

May God Bless your eyes to see and your ears to understand!

Send me a private message if you want to talk more

Linda

You are correct.
We do not get our righteousness from the law, we are
only righteous with Jesus in us, living in us.
But, if we love Him, we will keep His commandments,
not because we feel we have to, but because it becomes
a joy to please our Father in Heaven...

It moves us to please Him. I think sometimes of our Father
smiling because we are pleasing to Him. How cool....

Patrick

Originally posted by camaro540
But, if we love Him, we will keep His commandments,
not because we feel we have to, but because it becomes
a joy to please our Father in Heaven...

It moves us to please Him. I think sometimes of our Father
smiling because we are pleasing to Him. How cool....

Patrick

Click to expand...

Patrick:
I don't think that you and I are too far off. I agree, it is out of LOVE that we obey Him, not because of Law or to obtain righeouslness. I couldn't agree more wholeheartedly. I don't think that one person here walks around saying that they can murder, lie, steal, cheat, worship idols, etc. because they are no longer under Law. However, because we fulfill the ROYAL LAW, we find ourselves wanting to please God, knowing that to do those things would hurt Our Father. Let's make sure that we distinguish between what I think is ALL of our views on the other 9 commandments and the issue at hand. I say this only because I see you quoting scriptures based on works. I believe we can all agree that faith without works is dead. It is not really a true saving faith. It is because of our faith that one sees the works in our lives. I believe that we can all also agree that the word "works" here is not necessarily work-work, (such as visiting the widows and feeding the orphans) but can also be a change in us (such as no longer getting drunk, etc.).
Do we agree so far? If not, clarify for me please your view, because it seem to me that we do, but I might be missing something.
Now, about the Sabbath. I believe that THAT is where the real difference is. You believe that because we fulfill the Royal Law, it would also include us keeping the Sabbath because, naturally the assumption would be, that if we love God and each other, we would automatically want to keep the Sabbath.
However, scripture is very clear that under the NEW COVENANT, Jesus is our Sabbath, and that the Sabbath is EVERY DAY in Him. He is our Sabbath Rest. I believe the picture to be this...that no longer is the Sabbath THE day to find rest, but EVERYDAY in Christ is the day to find rest. As a matter of fact, Scripture calls it "Today" It is in Him, EVERYDAY, that I desire to worship Him, read scripture, praise Him, and commune with Him. I would find that quiet time to be with Him EVERYDAY, because WHY? Because I love Him. While the other commandments are spoken of throughout New Testament (aka NEW COVENANT)scripture, NO WHERE in the New Testament does Christ say we are to continue keeping the Sabbath. Why? Because HE is our Sabbath Rest under the NEW Covenant.
Patrick, I hope you see a little bit of what I am trying to say. If you need scriptures supporting all this, let me know and I will type them out for you.
On the side, Patrick, I want to say THANK YOU. I have really enjoyed this conversation and completely ADMIRE how respectful and polite you have been through all this. Your Love For Christ is Evident!!!
Bless You,
Cynthia

Exo 31:16 'Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a 'perpetual' covenant. 'It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.'" ... and it is a blessing to our family, I agree with the 'refreshed' aspect.

Strong's "perpetual" 5769. 'owlam, o-lawm'; or 'olam, o-lawm'; from H5956; prop. concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; gen. time out of mind (past or fut.), i.e. (practically) eternity;

Remember when Jesus said, "It is lawful to do good on the sabbath" Why would He not have said to the Pharassee's, "You dummy - you don't have to keep the sabbath anymore"

Notice Exo 16 God is trying to teach the Israelites to keep the sabbath BEFORE the 10 Commandments were given -

Jer 31:...I will make a 'new covenant' with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;' "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.
33 "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts;
and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

"I will put My law in their minds and write it on their hearts"

It does not make any logical sense that God would take His perfect 10 commandments and change one - The sabbath has purpose - it keeps us close to God - we can't get too busy for Him - and He knew that we humans would need that to keep from growing away from Him. "The Sabbath was made for man" It's purposely vague in the NT because it is the test commandment - "a sign between God and His people forever" And when you have been 'called' God opens your mind to the whole truth and it is obvious that all 10 are still commanded.

Luke 14:"Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?" If there was no law concerning the sabbath it would make no sense for Jesus to say "IT IS LAWFUL..." LAWFULL indicates there is a law concerning the sabbath.

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And 'they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.'

etc etc etc

Oh my Truth, just another way of saying that you want to do the deeds of the law !

No man will be justified by the deeds of the law !

The Law was not made for a righteous man !

When you read Exodus 31:16 , is that all your eyes see , is the word "perpetual" ? ?

Why does not your eyes see, that this verse is talking to the children of Israel ? ? And that they shall keep the sabbath ? ?

Not once was a gentile ever asked to keep the Sabbath ! Not once !

Is God the God of the Jews only ? ? Or is he of the Gentiles also ? ?

Why would you ask the Gentiles to live as the Jews did ? ? Is this not what Paul asked Peter in Galatians chapter 2 ? ?

Does circumcision or uncircumcision availeth anything ? ?

Does keeping or not keeping the Sabbath availeth anything ? ?

If you come up with anything other than NO ! You are incorrect in your assumption ! !

Love IN Christ - Hervey

I am going to respond only for people that are genuinly interested - not to try and convice Hervey.

1 - the 10 commandments are laws that have and will always exist in Heaven and all the way back to the garden of eden when Cain 'murdered' Abel. The circumcision was part of the covenant Gen 17:10 "This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised;"

A covenant is a contract, it is not the law itself. Your marriage is a covenant, the loan on your house etc. The sabbath is part of the universal perpetual law and the circumcision was an old covenant between Abraham and his descendants and God - that has now been changed.

Only talking to Israel? Where do you think millions of Israelites and their millions of descendants disappeared to?? Are they the Chinese Buddist? Arab Muslims? No they migrated north and East into Europe. A nation and a company of nations, Britain [British empire, with territories all over the world] is the company of nations and American is the single most blessed nation there ever was. Go back and read the national blessings that were promised to the descendants of Abraham and notice that you are up to your eyeballs in them.

I do believe in obedience to God and I never said I was trying to justify myself - you did

And yes, perpetual to me means perpetual lest I call God a liar.

(Edited on 3/6 by MizDoulos, Administrator)

For instance:

Water cleansing - Water baptizing

The tithe

How many of you who have taken a stand against Patrick's opinion on keeping the Sabbath, are also doers and breakers of the law ? ?

Click to expand...

by Hervey

Tithing

Matt. 23:23
"How terrible it will be for you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest part of your income, but you ignore the important things of the law – justice, mercy, and faith. You should tithe, yes, but you should not leave undone the more important things "

1 Cor. 16:2
On every Lord's Day, F87 each of you should put aside some amount of money in relation to what you have earned and save it for this offering. Don't wait until I get there and then try to collect it all at once.

Footnote F87: Greek - every first day of week

Baptism

John 3:5
Jesus replied, "The truth is, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.

Mark 1:9
One day Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee, and he was baptized by John in the Jordan River.
10
And when Jesus came up out of the water, he saw the heavens split open and the Holy Spirit descending like a dove on him.

We should follow His example right?

Acts 8:12
But now the people believed Philip's message of Good News concerning the Kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ. As a result, many men and women were baptized.
13
Then Simon himself believed and was baptized . He began following Philip wherever he went, and he was amazed by the great miracles and signs Philip performed.
8:16
The Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them , for they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
8:36
As they rode along, they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "Look! There's some water! Why can't I be baptized?"
8:38
He ordered the carriage to stop, and they went down into the water, and Philip baptized him.

Pretty evident it was water baptism.

Ephesians 5:26
to make her holy and clean, washed by baptism and God's word. F10

F10: Greek having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word.

1 Peter 3:21
And this is a picture of baptism, which now saves you by the power of Jesus Christ's resurrection. Baptism is not a removal of dirt from your body; it is an appeal to God from a clean conscience.

I think baptism (which was never a LAW in the OT) and tithing are both scriptural by NT standards. Baptism is a symbol and the first public affirmation of faith. Tithing is giving to God from what he has blessed us with.

"The question that comes to my mind is this: "If Jesus is living in me, why shouldn't I desire out of love and adoration for what was accomplished on the cross to obey the Law? "

EXACTLY!!! You are not required to do it. That much is made clear by Paul in several of his letters, galatians is the eaisest to notice..another is chapter 14 of romans. After you become a christian the law is a guide to living, but not a requirement to follow. See the difference??? We are literally free from the law, we have no part in it, we are only under christ, not under the law.

If you are free from the law then Christ says, "I never knew you, flee from Me, you who practice lawlessness"

To practice law-less-ness indicated there has to be a law to not be practicing?!?!?

Not one jot or one title will by any means pass from the law until heaven and earth pass away...it's still here in Cincinanti.

I did not come to destroy the law but to establish it!

If you want eternal life keep the commandments.

Why would you want to tell God you didn't want to keep His Sabbath day Holy anyway??

Christ fulfilled the law - did He not - but I fulfilled the traffic laws yesterday but they still exists today.

NO ONE is saying that the law doesn't still exist. PLEASE, can't we get past that? What we are saying is that the law, being perfect, is impossible to keep. It was given as a school master.
This VERY same issue was presented to Paul and this was his response:

Gal 3:1-4:1
3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain? 5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?-- 6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith." 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them." 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man's covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
NKJV

To return to law and negate the necessity of the death of Christ was to act as if bewitched. Works of the law did not give them freedom. My goodness, the Word goes on to say that "It was for FREEDOM that Christ set us free, therefore, keep standing firm and do not be subject again to the yoke of slavery." If you would just READ Galations, you would see that the context here was all about justification by faith and how we are now circumcised with Christ. "Behold, I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole law."

So, are you also saying that you need to be circumcised? THAT was part of the law too!!!

I end with this: Gal 2:19-21
19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain. "
NKJV

I REFUSE to believer EVER that Christ died needlessly.

Someone above here has on their signature something like
God Said It
I Believe it
God's gonna do it

That is SO wrong!!!! Bottom line is this

God Said It!!!
God's Gonna do it!!!

Whether you believe it or not doesn't change whether or not that Gods gonna do it, or, whether or not that settles it!!!

Peace,
Cynthia

Truth:

The Law we follow now, is the Law of righteousness , not the Law of Moses - Romans chapter 3

Romans 4:11 - "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised : that he might be the father of all them that believe , though they be not circumcised ; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also"

Verse 13 - "For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world , was not to Abraham and his seed , through the law (Law of Moses), but through the righteousness of faith"

Verse 14 - "For if they which are of the law (Law of Moses) be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect"

Verse 15 - "Because the Law (Law of Moses) worketh wrath : for where no law is, there is no transgression"

Verse 16 - "Therefore it is faith, that it might be by grace ; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed ; not to that only which is of the law (Law of Moses), but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham ; who is the father of us all"

Verse 24 - "But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him thaqt raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;"

Verse 25 - "Who was delivered for our offences , and was raised again for our justification" (by the works of the Law of Moses, shall no flesh be justified - Galatians 2:16 - "but by the faith of Jesus Christ")

Romans 13:10 - "Love worketh no ill to his neighbor : therefore love is the fulfill of the Law (Law of Moses)"

Romans 5:17 - "gift of righeousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ"

Romans 6:18 - "Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness"

Romans 9:30 - 33 (Read) Is Christ your stumbling stone ? And do you stumble at that stumblingstone ? Is he a rock of offence unto you ? Remember - "whosever believeth on him shall not be ashamed" ! !

Romans 10:3 - "For they (you and others here on this board) being ignorant of God's righteousness , and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God"

Romans 10:4 - "For Christ is the end of the Law (Law of Moses) for righteousness to every one that believeth"

Romans 10:10 - "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness ; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation"

The Law of righteousness is IN Christ - not in the Law of Moses !

I esteem every day alike unto the Lord , for righteous sake.

Love IN Christ - Hervey

tericl2

The "tithe" was "of the Law" ! Water cleansing - Water baptism was "of the Law" ! Jesus Christ "fulfilled" the Law , that we would not have to "do" the works of the Law !

Jesus speaking - Acts 1:5 - "For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days hence"

John the baptist speaking - Matthew 3:11 - "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance : but he (Jesus) that cometh after me is mightier than I , whose shoes I am not worthy to bear : he (Jesus Christ) shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire"

The tithe was a part of the Law, but there was another offering in the OT that was not a part of the law, and it was called a "free will offering". This "free will offering" not being under the Law, was given freely according to that persons heart , with what they worked with their hands, the things that they wanted to freely give to the Lord. This is "exactly" the same "offering" that God asks us to give -- A "free will offering" , and you can read it in II Corinthians 9:7. Not once do you find in the epistles, any suggestion to give the tithe - not once ! !

I am still wondering , how many who speak against keeping the Sabbath , and that we are free IN Christ, are also doing other parts of the law of Moses ? Does one say, that they do not keep the Sabbath, but they tithe. Or does one say that they do not keep the Sabbath, but they do water baptism ! ? Are not these people contradicting themselves in their efforts to explain that we do not keep the Law, and on the other hand they themselves contradict themselves by keeping the Law of the tithe, and or the Law of water cleansing - which is water baptizing ! ??

Love IN Christ - Hervey

"NO ONE is saying that the law doesn't still exist. PLEASE, can't we get past that? What we are saying is that the law, being perfect, is impossible to keep. "

EXACTLY. We are not required to keep the law. If righteousness came through the law, christ's sacrifice was for nothing. thus we are made perfect through christ and not the law. We are not required to follow the law, but we DO use it as a guide on how to live.

I am going to trust Jesus Christ and strive higher than being called LEAST in the kingdom of heaven:

Matt 5:19 "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

And you all are welcome to chose the other option if you so desire.