If Reincarnation is true then Jesus was sacrificed for no good

ananda said:

What if Jesus' God & his realm are not the highest goal?

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This is a question of doubt. We have personal experiences too

TheOldWays said:

Indeed. In spiritual matters, the only authority one should really answer to, is their own.

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What spiritual experiences have you had?

ananda said:

What if the real message Jesus was preaching was about the Buddha?

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Buddha is not a teacher of Jesus.

What It Is All About?

Buddhism
A method of right living and self-guided mind control via meditation modeled by Buddha. The goal is to be freed from reincarnation and suffering.

Christianity
God is not relevant to one's ability to do this. A personal relationship with God's crucified and risen Son, Jesus, that empowers believers with the Spirit of God. The goal is to love God and all people and to gain eternal life in heaven.


Journey of the Soul Repeated?

Buddhism
reincarnation. Life is largely predetermined by past lives' karma. One has little free will, and it is very hard to work off bad karma. Resurrection once to eternal life.

Christianity
Free will is pervasive. God can quickly forgive all past and future deeds that create bad karma.

God lets the rain fall on the wicked and the just. No kamma in Christianity.

Buddha and Jesus have a different endgame friend. 2 roads one leads you to God. One leads to emptiness

_-iconoclast-_ said:

What spiritual experiences have you had?

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i wouldn't even know where to begin. nor would i want to. the past is the past and no point in being attached to old experiences.

TheOldWays said:

i wouldn't even know where to begin. nor would i want to. the past is the past and no point in being attached to old experiences.

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Come on friend dont be shy

You had a reason to seek this process. You must have had some experience that confirmed your belief?

_-iconoclast-_ said:

Hello. Back again

So it is an appeal to your authority and more so your personal experiences.

You did not learn the term 'suffering is the motivation for all action' through your own personal experiences, you were taught it.

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Certainly I was taught it ... and then I experienced it for myself, making the teaching my own.

Someone before you devised the process to reach nirvana. However, personal experiences are an authority to the person who has one or many.

What experience(s) have you had that make you certain what you are taught is correct - Ie spiritual experience?

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By systematically following the Buddha's Path, I have experienced a progressive decrease in dukkha/suffering.

Lets look more at that statement you made previous. If hunger were suffering, i eat - action. Nirvana goal - no desire, no attachments and no sction.

All action is suffering. Eating is action. Does one have to die to reach nirvana?
One day will you be content not to eat?

Action is not always motivated by suffering. Sexual attraction is motivated by physical attraction. Arousal is motivated by sexual attraction. Non perverse or questionable sexual intercourse doe not cause the man to suffer - women also enjoy sex. The consequence of sex - labour - does not cause suffering to the man.

If sex were suffering it would not be so popular.

Buying a present for someone is not motivated by suffering - acts of love.

Singing and dancing - not always motivated by suffering.

These 3 examples show a different motivation for action with positive outcomes.

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Physical/sexual attraction, acts of love, singing and dancing, etc. are merely examples of the opposite side of the same coin - e.g. they show our attachments to pleasure, as a way to temporarily dispel suffering.

In relation to this statement 'The gods came to the Buddha to request instruction and clarification, to support his Sasana'. Do you believe Hindu Gods are real or exist?

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I neither believe nor disbelieve, being agnostic to them and to the Christian deity likewise, as I have not experienced any of them for myself.

So you would not help someome out who is suffering if it were to cause you suffering. You cannot have a desire to do so. You cannot have an attachment to that person and you cannot perform the action. Does that worry you?

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I didn't mean to imply that I wouldn't help others as best as I knew how; compassion and loving-kindness is part of the Buddhist Path. What I do mean is that, as I grow older (and hopefully wiser), I see the wisdom in allowing others to experience the consequences of their own mistakes, instead of immediately jumping in to "help".

Without omniscience, we cannot know truly or fully what will help or harm others. We cannot know the totality of their circumstances, and why or how they arrived at those circumstances in the first place. We cannot know whether our (imposed) "help" will actually make them better or worse off (e.g. they might not learn valuable life lessons and experience personal growth as a result of working out their own circumstances, believing that others will bail them out).

Instead, by 1. understanding our basic drive in life regarding dukkha (discontentment/suffering) 2. understanding how dukkha drives our every action, and 3. by understanding that others are afflicted similarly, we seek to watch after ourselves, by becoming more virtuously perfected in every way. By watching after ourselves, we progressively resolve not only our own dukkha, but also restrain our negative impact upon others and the resulting dukkha they would experience. We serve best as a shining example to others, teaching through example instead of force, allowing others to cultivate the personal development of the eye of wisdom by working things out for themselves.

• "When watching after yourself, you watch after others. When watching after others, you watch after yourself." - Sedaka Sutta SN 47.19
• "[One] endowed with five qualities practices both for his own benefit and for that of others ... [he is] consummate in virtue and encourages others to be consummate in virtue .. concentration ... discernment ... release ... knowledge & vision of release" - Hita Suta AN 5.20 (cf AN 4.99)

To illustrate how we change over time: As a child, if I saw someone in distress, I might jump in to "help" based on ignorance, insufficient knowledge and wisdom. Growing older and wiser, I would not "help" the person in the same way after understanding the peril of "helping" by childish means - but instead rely on lesser ignorance, and greater knowledge and wisdom.

So nirvana is the unbinding of a flame that appears to extinguish but in reality it is there?

The flame does not vanish?
What is the purpose of the illusion?
Why do i need to think it vanishes?

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The point is that the unbound flame illustrates the release of attachment & results in the coolness of peace.

What is the benefit for you to loose your self, loose all desire and loose all action?

Ps
Please give me a different answer than suffering. I would like to know your own reasons.

Thank you

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Ultimately, "suffering" is my answer. It is the question to all of existence, as I understand it. Why do you believe it is not my own reason?

_-iconoclast-_ said:

This is a question of doubt. We have personal experiences too

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I don't disagree ... I suppose I'm merely pointing out that - at least for myself - even if I directly experienced an independent intelligence named "Jesus" or "God", I'm not sure how that experience would prove that they were Omniscient/Omnipotent/Almighty/etc. Of course, I haven't experienced that, so I am agnostic about it.

However, for those who have experienced them ... I cannot argue against personal experience!

_-iconoclast-_ said:

Buddha is not a teacher of Jesus.

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I was exploring the question "what if?"

Buddhism ... reincarnation. Life is largely predetermined by past lives' karma. One has little free will, and it is very hard to work off bad karma ... Buddha and Jesus have a different endgame friend. 2 roads one leads you to God. One leads to emptiness

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I don't agree that this represents the earliest teachings of the Buddha, as far as I've learned them.

Early Buddhism teaches rebirth - not reincarnation - and we can see rebirth in action even now.

There is free will in Buddhism - application of free will can interrupt and modify past kamma to produce a new direction in our lives, and it's not difficult at all. It is the basis of learning, and the subsequent change we experience in our lives.

Buddhism teaches multiple paths - including paths which result in an extremely long-lasting period (aeons) where one experiences "union with god". The highest Path results in nibbana - not emptiness.

Another Lazarus said:

Jesus existed be4 the foundation of this world is laid. why would he learned from his creation.

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I understand that is the Christian position.

The Buddhist position is that certain beings sincerely - but delusionally - believe that they are God or represent God, and are eternal, and teach likewise.

TheOldWays said:

i wouldn't even know where to begin. nor would i want to. the past is the past and no point in being attached to old experiences.

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But there is a point to being....attached to the ONE who overcame all things for us who is THE AUTHOR...and FINISHER of our faith

And THE OVERSEER of our soul

1 John 5

ananda said:

I understand that is the Christian position.

The Buddhist position is that certain beings sincerely - but delusionally - believe that they are God or represent God, and are eternal, and teach likewise.

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Ananda.

It is the only "position"
There is only "ONE DOOR"

One is either inside or outside "THAT DOOR"

John 10

ananda said:

The Buddhist position is that certain beings sincerely - but delusionally - believe that they are God or represent God, and are eternal, and teach likewise.

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Yeah, I never could get on board with the non-dual notion that we are
God. I prefer to see God as an individual entity with Whom we can have a
relationship. If I thought for a moment that I was "as God as it gets", I'd
be bummed. ఠ_ఠ

I like the idea of being one with Him, without being tantamount to Him,
if that makes sense. There's a saying, "I do not want to be sugar;
I want to taste sugar. I want to love and enjoy the Beloved."

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miknik5 said:

Ananda.

It is the only "position"
There is only "ONE DOOR"

One is either inside or outside "THAT DOOR"

John 10

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I see no reason to have faith in that claim, as many other religions teach likewise, unfortunately.

RayJeena said:

Yeah, I never could get on board with the non-dual notion that we are
God. I prefer to see God as an individual entity with Whom we can have a
relationship. If I thought for a moment that I was "as God as it gets", I'd
be bummed. ఠ_ఠ

I like the idea of being one with Him, without being tantamount to Him,
if that makes sense. There's a saying, "I do not want to be sugar;
I want to taste sugar. I want to love and enjoy the Beloved."

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I can understand that desire ... however, does "God" explain all your questions about existence?

ananda said:

I can understand that desire ... however, does "God" explain all your questions about existence?

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He probably did before I incarnated, but I've either forgotten, or the
explanations I've arrived at already are the same ones He imparted to me
prior to coming down here. It's quite evident to me that we're not
supposed to know for sure all the answers in this stage of the Game. ツ

Plus, when I'm really absorbed in my love for Him, it relieves any attachment
I might have to getting an explanation. But then again, my attachment to
Him directly is the only attachment that I've found constructive.

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_-iconoclast-_ said:

What spiritual experiences have you had?

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I've had many. One is the sacredness of Mother Earth. Another is experiencing trees, animals and all around me not as nouns/objects but as verbs, very alive, vibrant and with souls.

miknik5 said:

But there is a point to being....attached to the ONE who overcame all things for us who is THE AUTHOR...and FINISHER of our faith

And THE OVERSEER of our soul

1 John 5

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Thanks for the reply. Christianity was my first and longest stop on the spiritual train. I actually was enrolled in college to become a pastor before I saw it wasn't a good fit for me and I decided to look elsewhere for spiritual fulfilment. Of course it would be many years before I discovered spiritual fulfilment is within.

miknik5 said:

Ananda.

It is the only "position"
There is only "ONE DOOR"

One is either inside or outside "THAT DOOR"

John 10

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It may be just me, but as I look around the globe and at all of those people who live with just as much in the grace, blessings and presence of God as does any Christian that I've ever come across, it's pretty clear to me that "THAT DOOR" is not as exclusive as is being portrayed.

dlamberth said:

It may be just me, but as I look around the globe and at all of those people who live with just as much in the grace, blessings and presence of God as does any Christian that I've ever come across, it's pretty clear to me that "THAT DOOR" is not as exclusive as is being portrayed.

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If there's only One Way, it sure has many lanes. •‿•

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