What is a pro-choice Christian?

Vicomte13 · Sep 19, 2017

MoonlessNight said:
Thus we can conclude that you are aware that the argument you said does not necessarily follow. So why would you make it? The only motivation I can see is that you are hoping that the conclusion will be a bit too much for pro-life people to swallow, and as such they might decide that they are okay with babies being killed after all. Of course, the other option is for them to see that the fact that something is wrong does not mean that we automatically execute everyone even remotely connected to it (seeing as how we don't do that for any other offense).

Moonlight, it is as simple as this: we live in the real world, not the world of ideas. In the real world, abortion on demand is legal, and supported by a significant majority of people, and the death penalty is the law of the land in most states and part of federal law. Also, the cops kill people frequently, and the military kills large numbers of civilians (we call it "collateral damage").

That is the system we have.

You don't like a portion of that: the killing of babies by abortion. I don't like it either. That's nice. We don't like and we think it's wrong. Nobody cares what we think. We are in the minority. If we want to actually win the day on this, then we are the ones who have to move their minds. They have what they want and do not have to move to meet us, or even to discuss things with us. We have not persuaded the society. We have lost, and the babies with us.

We will never, ever win the day and change the law of abortion going about it the way Christians go about it - like scolds. They don't listen and don't have to, and therefore, won't. Those who do, dance around us all day. They point out, for example, that if you really outlaw abortion, you are going to have 1 million more poor kids born every year. That will require a truly massive increase in welfare spending and educational spending. One of the reasons the pro-choice people are pro-choice is to avoid the cost and burden to people who can't afford or don't want kids. So if you're going to propose that we end the practice based on "God said", they're going to ignore you, deny that God said, it, OR point out that God also said to take care of the poor.

You have to have already thought that out, and you have to realize that you cannot realistically be pro-life and a small government conservative, opposed to taxes and social welfare. Because ending abortion and having a smaller social welfare state would MEAN African levels of mass poverty. When God made the tithe for Israel to the Levites as poverty relief, he meant it. And when Jesus said to take care of the poor and the orphan, he meant it.

If you are going to be pro-choice with any prayer of changing people's minds you had better be ready to embrace an expanded and expensive social welfare state - because that is what you are going to have to have. Resist that - which is to say, serve mammon and resist the taxes - and you've killed the babies. Those babies have to be provided for, and that means MORE of what the political right calls "socialism" - lots of social welfare, paid by taxes.

Confess that that is inevitable, and you can get the grudging respect of pro-choice people who acknowledge that AT LEAST you have considered the implications, but they will not stop there.

The logic of not killing babies extends to the truth: women are going to get abortions anyway, so what do you do THEN? And then you have a problem if you've defined abortion as the murder of a child, because if it's that, just the same thing, the premeditated murder of an infant, do you have the courage of your convictions? Are you ready to treat mothers and medical staff as murderers? If not, why not?

And what about the grossly handicapped? Or the victims of rape?
It isn't for the pro-choicers to defend anything: they already stand in possession of the field. The pro-life Christians have to have thought it all through, all of the connective tissue, and ultimately it all comes down to: who can kill whom, and when. If you have not thought it through - the economic consequences, the logical consequences, how murderers are to be treated, the handicapped, the raped, the incestuous, and the death penalty, the other killings our society allows - then they will seize on each place that you stumble and stop listening.

You have to be completely consistent all the way to the end.

I raise the issues because our side of the matter, the pro-life side, talks like a Dutch aunt, a religious scold, has not clearly thought it all through, and does not present cogent arguments.

My purpose is to force the pro-lifers to THINK, and to REACT to very legitimate objections.

I pulled out to the sanctity of life, because that's the 100,000 foot view.

Parsing it through and listening to Jesus, and realizing the limits of our justice, where you have to come out is giving up on the death penalty, defanging the police, pulling back from war and taking a much more peaceful approach to the world, and massively expanding the social welfare state to care for the poor and people who fall off the ladder. If that safety net were reliable and people saw they did not sink into poverty and desperation, the reasonable fear and economic calculation that goes into the abortion decision would be relaxed. Under those conditions, with strong orphanages and a clear and reliable source of support, people who would abort would consider not doing so, or giving up the baby for adoption, and the economic expediency would be taken out of the equation.

But without those things, without moving the society to much greater social protection, it is impossible to outlaw abortion. We cannot win if all we have is words, for words are wind.

Getting mad at me for making the argument hard is pointless. We have a very hard row to hoe, and it is going to be expensive, and it will require changing our own attitudes about law and order, military force, and social welfare. If we're going to save those babies, we are going to actually invest what we invest in war in the poor instead, so there aren't any more poor here. It means changing everything.

If we won't grasp the nettle, we will just scold until doomsday, and change nothing.

We can win, but everything has to change. Abortion is not an issue in isolation - law, justice, war and social welfare, and military spending, and taxation, and crime are all wrapped up in it. For what does the "convenience of the woman" mean, really? It means that young women do not want to be impoverished because of a bad decision.

Raging against their poor decisions will not end abortion. Abortion is already the law, and we will be ignored. We have to address the basis of the fear - which is real - it is the fear of poverty. We have to remove that, while establishing a real culture of life. THEN we have a shot at changing hearts and minds.
Otherwise it's all just wind.

Ron Gurley · Sep 19, 2017

Yo' momma was "pro-life", Dahlin'! (Bumper sticker!)
A person is a person, no matter how small!(Dr. Suess)

God gives Life at the instant of conception.
Man has the sinful choice to take it away.

What about the SOUL + SPIRIT parts of Man???

Exodus 21
22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman
and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury,
the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows.
23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life,
24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

Luke 1
41When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb,
and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

A) Here an unborn "fetus" is referred to as a "baby".
The greek word "BREPHOS" refers to a baby, whether he/she is unborn or not.

B. Luke 2:12, the angels announce to the shepherds in the field that they will find the "baby" Jesus
wrapped and lying in a manger.

The word "baby" here is "BREPHOS" again.
2) The Bible makes no distinction, and has no separate word for a baby who is UNBORN versus a baby who is BORN.

Psalm 139....For the director of music. Of David. A psalm.
13 For you created my inmost being; (spirit and soul)...created in the image (spirit) and likeness (soul/character) of Godyou knitted me together in my mother’s womb.(body)
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; (body+soul+spirit)your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; (all knowing)
all the days ordained for me (born or unborn?) were written in your book before one of them (days) came to be.

Mark 10 (NIV)....The Little Children and Jesus
13 People were bringing little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them,
but the disciples rebuked them.
14 When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not HINDER them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
15 Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child (faith and trust) will never enter it.”
16 And he took the children in his arms, placed his hands on them and blessed them.

Isaiah 49 (NIV)
5 And now the LORD says—
he who formed me in the womb
15 “Can a mother forget the baby at her breast
and have no compassion on the child she has borne?
Though she may forget, I will not forget you!
18 Lift up your eyes and look around;
all your children gather and come to you.
As surely as I live,” declares the LORD,
“you will wear them all as ornaments;
you will put them on, like a bride.

John 16:21
A woman giving birth to a child has pain because her time has come; but when her baby is born
she forgets the anguish because of her joy that a child is born into the world.

Job 33:4
“The Spirit of God has made me,
And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Job 32:8
But it is the spirit in a person, the breath of the Almighty, that gives them understanding.

Proverbs 20:27
The human spirit is the lamp of the Lord that sheds light on one’s inmost being.

Isaiah 42:5
Thus says God the Lord,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread out the earth and its offspring,
Who gives breath to the people on it
And (gives) SPIRIT to those who walk in it,

parousia70 · Sep 19, 2017

Winken said:
Your posts are simply pathetic.

Does that mean you have no sober, reasoned rebuttal to them?

Winken · Sep 19, 2017

parousia70 said:
Does that mean you have no sober, reasoned rebuttal to them?

Here we go again...........

Oldmantook · Sep 19, 2017

RaymondG said:
Like I said, you are free to do what you want, interpret scriptures how you want and live your life how you want.....And answer to God. I told you what I believe to be true, and you disregard it.... so now what it the loving thing to do? keep bashing you and calling you a sinner? Or should i argue with you and insult your knowledge and intellect? Is that love? Tell you, you dont know anything and your bible knowledge is flawed? Write a bunch of sentences starting with "With all due respect" and ending with "I dont respect your words or beliefs?" I dont find those things to be loving at all, nor is it likely to make you believe that my words come are inspired by the God who is Love. I said what I believe, and I will habor no negative feelings when im not believed, nor will i condemn or judge.

I'd rather lead by example.....when I stop being able to show the way with my life, then i will consider forcing people into my way with my words.

No one is free to interpret the scriptures how they want as that leads to moral relativity and moral chaos. Instead of responding to the scriptures which clearly conflict with your view, why don't you just be honest and state that you don't agree or even believe in the scriptures. If you disagree with the scriptures, at the very least at least offer your exegesis as to why you disagree. That would be the honorable thing to do. My respect for your beliefs is based on whether they correspond to the truth of Scripture and not based on the whims of your feelings and emotions. If you don't know it by now, morality is objective - not subjective.

RaymondG · Sep 19, 2017

Oldmantook said:
No one is free to interpret the scriptures how they want as that leads to moral relativity and moral chaos. Instead of responding to the scriptures which clearly conflict with your view, why don't you just be honest and state that you don't agree or even believe in the scriptures. If you disagree with the scriptures, at the very least at least offer your exegesis as to why you disagree. That would be the honorable thing to do. My respect for your beliefs is based on whether they correspond to the truth of Scripture and not based on the whims of your feelings and emotions. If you don't know it by now, morality is objective - not subjective.

You are correct.

KWCrazy · Sep 19, 2017

SPF said:
The problem is clearly that you don't view the unborn child as a human being possessing the same intrinsic moral worth and value that you have. To me, that's what's sad.

That sums up the "pro-choice" argument as clearly as anything ever written. They simply do not value the life within.

KWCrazy · Sep 19, 2017

SkyWriting said:
All excuses for you not being committed enough to want their child enough to avoid the abortion.

What a disingenuous argument.
You defend that evil and irresponsible behavior of others by accusing me of not wanting to take responsibility for that action?
Do you realize that I, who never fathered a child, have provided for six of them fathered by others?
Sex between unmarried people is a sin. Not using birth control is stupidity. Creating a life and destroying it because it's inconvenient is evil, and it's premeditated murder.
Abortion doctors who choose that profession willingly are hired assassins.
The blackness is on your heart. Deal with it.

Fantine · Sep 19, 2017

It's always interesting to contemplate how often the poor are mentioned in the Bible:
The Bible on the Poor

and compare it to the number of times abortion is mentioned....

It must take an enormous amount of concentration to completely ignore all the times caring for the poor is mentioned in the Bible, and yet the leaders pro-lifers choose say, "Not in MY Bible, they don't..."

Like it or not, it seems as if reasonable people of good will and good faith, even Christians, have different beliefs about when human life (or ensoulment) begins. Pro-lifers are yelling "murder" and pro-choicers are saying, "?????"

Sometimes it seems as if the only solution (or at least the one I have made peace with) is to be "results-oriented." What specific strategies will result in the lowest number of legal abortions and what specific strategies will improve the lives of children already born, many of whom grow up in poverty, in single-parent homes, with many strikes against them?

I think that single issue voting increases the "inconveniences" (as YOU call them) that drive women to desperate solutions, and also shortchanges the children after they are born, perpetuating a cycle of poverty and teen pregnancy from generation to generation.

I don't think "results oriented" voting does that. It results in fewer unwanted pregnancies, fewer abortions, and happier healthier childhoods for all children.

I believe that we "results-oriented voters" are the caring ones---our care encompasses a lifetime, even as now we march with the DACA students fighting to stay in the only country they've ever known.

Ron Gurley · Sep 19, 2017

China tried to limit its population by abortion, child murder, and limitation of number of children per family.
This inhumane experiment failed miserably! The oriental mind and society has no value for life.

redleghunter · Sep 19, 2017

Zoii said:
I get the comment regarding abortion, the bit about complaining how the rich are taxed is odd.... You want roads, shipping docks, police, Fire services, schools, military.... Who will pay it if you don't think you should be taxed. And the more services you demand, the more tax is required.

I think the OP was making a stark comparison of "choice."

I took it as showing a literary extreme.

So his comments were not really about taxes but showing how people want government to tell people what to do with their own money; yet let someone decide to terminate the life of a defenseless human being in the womb.

redleghunter · Sep 19, 2017

FireDragon76 said:
Comparing the slaughter of Jews to abortion disrespects the women's desired autonomy over their own bodies, and in turn the memory of those who died in the holocaust.

The parallel is valid. Show me where we as Christians are told to pursue our desired autonomy. Such is foreign to the teachings of Christ.

redleghunter · Sep 19, 2017

FireDragon76 said:
Which says nothing about abortion.

The premeditated termination of defenseless human life is not murder?

redleghunter · Sep 19, 2017

FireDragon76 said:
Why is the only consideration for the potential life of the embryo or foetus and not the actual life of the woman?

Fallacious approach. You assume the woman carrying the child has greater moral worth.

What was the moral worth of Christ at conception compared to Mary's?

redleghunter · Sep 19, 2017

A_Thinker said:
Honestly, I haven't thought about the subject of abortion for awhile.

As I had mentioned earlier, I supported supposed pro-life political candiadates for almost thirty years. I supported pro-life ministries for longer. I believe that the act of abortion, ... in being anti-life, is not an option (excluding some extenuating circumstances) for myself and mine, and those within my family/christian circles are aware of my discomfort with the practice of abortion.

I have been frustrated at the lack of political progress toward reversing Roe v. Wade, ... but I have been gratified by some efforts of pro-life ministries. For instance, there was a series of commercial spots centered around the theme of "Choose Life" that aired in the 90's, I believe. The spots were beautiful ... and, I think, served to change many hearts on the subject of abortion.

I haven't checked the stats lately, ... but the last time I checked, attitudes toward abortion were shifting in the pro-life direction. For me, the evil of abortion is confirmed in how "industrial" it can become. Also, due to the fact that the industry relied partially upon a "lack of information being provided to possible recipients. I mean, what medical procedure is deemed better, ... if its recipients are not well informed as to what it actually does ?

Despite this, ... I do recognize as worthy of consideration, those arguments on the other side. The hard cases (i.e. where the health of the mother could be compromised, ... or pregnancy that occurs as a result of rape, etc.) are not easily resolved. And, of course, politically, abortion just becomes another issue, mixed in with the good, bad, and otherwise, ... to advance the ambitions of politicians.

I don't believe that abortion should ever become a casual thing. I believe that the moral implications should be awesomely considered. OTOH, I realize that the 9 months between conception and birth is a period of some uncertainty for some people, ... and that even outlawing the procedure won't stop it.

Well ... that was cathartic, I believe. I have not, in a long while, given myself the permission to vent about my true feelngs on this subject. As I stated earlier, I don't think that it is an easy topic, and I think that we do God and others a disservice when we are simply dogmatic, rather than listening and persuasive. This is one subject which always deserves a thorough discussion, rather than just a repetition of talking points ...

Forget the politicians. What do you think and why.

What is right and what is wrong. Both sides can't be right.

redleghunter · Sep 19, 2017

GirdYourLoins said:
So you think a baby is not a living person until 24 weeks? I keep asking people tojustify how they can say that but no one has done so yet that I have seen.

Indeed. When human life begins is settle science. We are human beings at conception. Yet we have science deniers giving us subjective philosophical presentations on "personhood." Which is not a scientific term and cannot be objectively defined.

redleghunter · Sep 19, 2017

GirdYourLoins said:
And for the record, the Hebrew word used in the commandment Do not kill/commit murder is rasah which has a widespread meaning relating to premeditated murder through to accidental manslaghter when used in different context. It seems fairly clear to me that there is no doubt that the commandment is not to take human life and when this is done deliberately the punishment is death.

A bit more on ratsach :

redleghunter · Sep 19, 2017

FireDragon76 said:
My religion considers it lawful for Christians to be soldiers or engage in vocations in which they might have to kill, so I consider the exact meaning of the Hebrew word irrelevant.

You are changing the subject.

However, in fairness to your "religion" they espouse just war theory which forbids targeting even tangentially non combatants. Which means children.

Fantine · Sep 19, 2017

Ron Gurley said:
China tried to limit its population by abortion, child murder, and limitation of number of children per family.
This inhumane experiment failed miserably! The oriental mind and society has no value for life.

I find that the pro-life community is often just as coercive as the Chinese government in trying to achieve its aims--one reason why, although I contribute to their programs to help and educate young mothers, I am too repelled by what I see as coercive tactics to do more than that.

The Chinese stated goals for its "temporary" one child policy sound very noble, too:

China’s one-child policy has probably gotten the spotlight as much as the size of its population, the world’s largest at almost 1.4 billion. The goal of the policy was to make sure that population growth did not outpace economic development and to ease environmental and natural resource challenges and imbalances caused by a rapidly expanding population.

Pro-lifers want to save babies and sometimes engage in coercive and offensive tactics to achieve their goal.

China wanted to have a safe, healthy environment where children could grow and be provided for and temporarily engaged in coercive and offensive tactics to achieve their goal.

China's Former One-Child Policy Explained

redleghunter · Sep 19, 2017

GirdYourLoins said:
I'll withdraw the comment about Jesus, it has been pointed out that it was available. What I meant was if it was as readily available with the medical reliability and safety of modern medicine and the acceptance amongst large parts of society like today and they certainly didnt have our medical standards. But this comment can be ignored if you like. I hold my hands up and admit I made a flippant comment without checking that part of it out properly.

You still being up a good and inconvenient truth those who claim to hold to Biblical and historical church teachings.

The Incarnation.

What is a pro-choice Christian?

Well-Known Member

What U See is What U Get!

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Heimat

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Newbie

Dona Quixote

What U See is What U Get!

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

Dona Quixote

Thank You Jesus!

Similar threads