What is a pro-choice Christian?

Status
Not open for further replies.

MoonlessNight

Fides et Ratio
Sep 16, 2003
10,217
3,523
✟63,049.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
No, this discussion is not about abortion.

Here's the OP:

Pro-choice is a deceptive term used by abortion supporters to reframe the killing of unborn babies as an individual right.

People who identify as pro-choice typically vote for left-leaning political parties that want to implement high taxes on people who make good money. To force a successful person to hand over 50% or 60% of his salary to the government is very anti-choice. People should have the right to choose what they do with their own money without the government confiscating most of it.

Why do pro-choice believers say that women have a right to choose an abortion, but think that rich people should not have the right to choose what to do with most of their money? If the pro-choice crowd were honest, their views on choice would be consistent. But they are far from consistent.

Sure looks to me like the discussion was meant to primarily be about abortion.

For let's be clear, if legally the killing of a baby in the womb is the intentional slaying of a human being, then therefore the mother, the doctor and the attending nurses are all first degree murderers who, in the states who have those laws, should all be put to death, and everybody who works in the office, or finances the abortion, is likewise an accessory to first degree murder - and guilty of felony murder, just like the getaway driver from a robbery gone bad is charged with felony murder even if he sat in the car and waited and never drew a gun.

Shall we, then, apply our law of murder to abortion, given that it is murder, and execute everybody affiliated with the abortion clinics, and all mothers who procure one, and all boyfriends who pay for it?

Logically, we must.

Which is why, when we come to matters of life, there are no lines - well, this is abortion, so that's different.

If it's different, then we must acknowledge it.
But if it's not, then that means many other things also.

It's easy to condemn people morally for the crime of abortion. Are we willing to execute everybody involved in the process, including the mother, all of the doctors, nurses, payors and secretarial staff? We executed prison guards at Auschwitz. The secretary sitting out front taking calls is as worthy as a noose as a train guard at a death camp. No difference.

Right?

This is a rather disingenuous line of argument to take when in your post immediately before this you said that we said that we should question whether the death penalty should be employed for any reason whatsoever (due to the state of justice in our society). If you aren't a fervent supporter of the death penalty, why would you claim that it is a necessary logical consequence of abortion being murder that we must execute every single person involved in the process? Even if you were a fervent supporter of the death penalty that would still be quite a leap, but if you don't support it generally the argument makes no sense whatsoever.

Thus we can conclude that you are aware that the argument you said does not necessarily follow. So why would you make it? The only motivation I can see is that you are hoping that the conclusion will be a bit too much for pro-life people to swallow, and as such they might decide that they are okay with babies being killed after all. Of course, the other option is for them to see that the fact that something is wrong does not mean that we automatically execute everyone even remotely connected to it (seeing as how we don't do that for any other offense).
 
Upvote 0

RaymondG

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2016
8,545
3,816
USA
✟268,974.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Choosing to turn away from sin is right, and choosing to sin is wrong.

This is like day 1 of Christianity 101 stuff here. I don't know why this should even be controversial.
I am talking day 40 Christianity 202 here, which is why you don't understand. I cant choose to turn away from or to sin if you take away my choice. The people in this thread want to say what it right, and call everyone wrong who doesn't believe......They also want to force others to do what they say, whether they believe it's right or not......they want total control of people's lives. I don't desire this control over another. I want others to be able to make decisions on their own and not be forced to do what I believe, even though, you may agree the world would be a wonderful place if I had total dictative authority.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Archivist
Upvote 0

Winken

Heimat
Supporter
Sep 24, 2010
5,709
3,505
✟168,847.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Sure she does. She may not have TOTAL control, but she clearly has a certain degree of it...
She needs to eat right, not smoke, not drink, and not put herself into needless situations that risk the baby, though yes, If she does all that and God still wants to Abort the Baby, He will.



Most but not all?
What of the ones that Don't take those precautions? Should the State step in?
Most women don't have abortions either.
Does that mean the ones that do should be left alone by the State, or should the State step in?



Just taking it to it's logical conclusion
Strange.
 
Upvote 0

Vicomte13

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2016
3,655
1,816
Westport, Connecticut
✟93,837.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
No, it's about abortion. Thanks though.

Then it's angels dancing on the head of a pin and there is no real truth in the discussion.

Abortion is not different from murder on the street, killing in war, or the police shooting down people for disobedience. A murder is a murder.

Politically, we have decided that the police can murder people for disobedience, the army can murder enemy cities in war, and the justice system can murder people for being involved in crimes that lead to death, even if the one being murdered by the state did not actually kill anybody - and even if the convict is in fact innocent and is to die because of a brutally flawed and corrupt legal process. And we've decided that woman can murder babies for expedience. Soon, we will decide that it is right and just to murder the terminally ill with expensive diseases - euthanasia, involuntary euthanasia, is already practiced in the Netherlands.

All of these things are the product of expediency, and you cannot fix any of it without addressing all of it and deciding on the standard of life - and then applying that. If you don't, then nobody can ever be convinced of anything on the topic, and abortion will remain the law of the land, along with all of the other expedient killings. In a democracy, if you want life to be treated as sacred, you have to espouse a belief in the sanctity of life that covers the waterfront, otherwise it is all picking and choosing and will be rejected politically.

You have to change people's hearts, and you cannot do that by trying to carve a pet issue off from the sanctity of life and treating it apart. The question is can men kill other men. The answer - right now - is yes, whenever it is expedient. If we want to stop abortion, which is popular, then men have to answer that question NO, across the board, and that is NOT expedient. It means turning the other cheek a lot, letting criminals go, accepting disrespect - and lots of other things.

It's easy to say that this is all off topic, but the topic is sanctity of life. Abortion standing all alone is a silly topic, a leaf that has been pulled off the tree. Unless the tree is addressed as a unit, abortion will be the law of the world.
 
Upvote 0

RaymondG

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2016
8,545
3,816
USA
✟268,974.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
To be fair to @Anguspure, most people believe it's perfectly reasonable to outlaw murder.

The amount of moral equivocation going on here about whether or not a mother has some perceived right to allow her baby to be torn into pieces is really disheartening. And disgusting.
I believe it is right as well. The difference here is that I don't want to force others to believe what I believe, or look down on them because they don't. No need bringing up murder, because it is law already. Follow law Or face consequences. This goes to the simple stuff as well....there are some who believe women shouldn't speak in church......I disagree.....but what if they were able to enforce their belief on everyone? This is the world you are preparing for yourself, when you start taking away people's right to follow their own heart and beliefs.
 
Upvote 0

Winken

Heimat
Supporter
Sep 24, 2010
5,709
3,505
✟168,847.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Seeing as only 1/3 - 1/2 of fertilized eggs, when left alone, result in a live Birth, it would seem God is the single most successful practitioner of abortion out there. We simply call it "spontaneous abortion".

Certainly in the OT, He even commanded humans to do His aborting for Him (when His divine hand of doling out miscarriages to 1/2 - 2/3 of fertilizations apparently didn't fully satisfy Him):

Hosea 9:11-16 Hosea prays for God's intervention. Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. . .Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. Clearly Hosea desires that the people of Ephraim can no longer have children. God of course obeys by making all their unborn children miscarry.

Numbers 5:11-21 The description of a bizarre, brutal and abusive ritual to be performed on a wife SUSPECTED of adultery. This is nothing less than an induced abortion to rid a woman of another man's child.

Numbers 31:17 (Moses) Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him. (In other words: women that might be pregnant, which clearly is abortion for the fetus.)

Hosea 13:16 God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the their women with child shall be ripped up. Once again, God kills the unborn, including their pregnant mothers.

2 Kings 15:16 God commands that the pregnant women of Tappuah (aka Tiphsah) to be ripped open.

For me, I'd choose against having an abortion, every and any time..

...But to suggest God is against the ending of all fetal life, in light if the scriptural testimony above, as well as His Divine decision that 1/2 to 2/3 of successful fertilizations must end in Miscarriage, is simply untenable.

Maybe it's only a problem when people do it apart from His orders to do it?

2 Timothy 2:15-16 KJV. You've got a lot of dividing to do.
 
Upvote 0

MoonlessNight

Fides et Ratio
Sep 16, 2003
10,217
3,523
✟63,049.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
The people in this thread want to say what it right, and call everyone wrong who doesn't believe.

Yes, people generally want to state the truth. Similarly many people would say that 2+2 = 4 even if someone disagreed.

They also want to force others to do what they say, whether they believe it's right or not.

This is one of the primary purposes of this institution commonly referred to as "government." Now you may not be familiar with this "governments" but they generally force people to do all sorts of things. For example, they have the gall to forbid people from stabbing their neighbors, or robbing stores, or stealing kidneys from orphans. They even force people who don't believe that those things are wrong to not do those things! Shocking I know.
 
Upvote 0

MoonlessNight

Fides et Ratio
Sep 16, 2003
10,217
3,523
✟63,049.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
I believe it is right as well. The difference here is that I don't want to force others to believe what I believe, or look down on them because they don't. No need bringing up murder, because it is law already. Follow law Or face consequences.

I have a simple solution for your problem: we outlaw abortion. Then people will simply need to follow the law or face the consequences.
 
Upvote 0

Winken

Heimat
Supporter
Sep 24, 2010
5,709
3,505
✟168,847.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I am talking day 40 Christianity 202 here, which is why you don't understand. I cant choose to turn away from or to sin if you take away my choice. The people in this thread want to say what it right, and call everyone wrong who doesn't believe......They also want to force others to do what they say, whether they believe it's right or not......they want total control of people's lives. I don't desire this control over another. I want others to be able to make decisions on their own and not be forced to do what I believe, even though, you may agree the world would be a wonderful place if I had total dictative authority.
???? ....... try that again? Who is who?
 
Upvote 0

RaymondG

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2016
8,545
3,816
USA
✟268,974.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes, people generally want to state the truth. Similarly many people would say that 2+2 = 4 even if someone disagreed.



This is one of the primary purposes of this institution commonly referred to as "government." Now you may not be familiar with this "governments" but they generally force people to do all sorts of things. For example, they have the gall to forbid people from stabbing their neighbors, or robbing stores, or stealing kidneys from orphans. They even force people who don't believe that those things are wrong to not do those things! Shocking I know.
If the government forces people to not do these things, why does it still happen? It seems to me that they set laws and give the people a choice to follow them or go to jail.

God gives law as well....and leaves it up to you to follow and be blessed, or disobey and be cursed.

But I don't think we can reason together.....this is my last reply to you. Thanks
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

thecolorsblend

If God is your Father, who is your Mother?
Supporter
Jul 1, 2013
9,199
8,425
Gotham City, New Jersey
✟308,231.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I believe it is right as well. The difference here is that I don't want to force others to believe what I believe, or look down on them because they don't. No need bringing up murder, because it is law already.
This libertarian view you're employing overlooks the fact that most law is predicated upon some sense of morality. It's someone's idea of what's right and what's wrong enshrined into law and enforced by people who wear badges and carry guns.

In effect, we're ALL forced to abide by laws with which we may not agree. Why people suddenly become libertarians when the subject turns to protecting innocent life is absolutely puzzling to me. But it's absolutely gutless because it doesn't require anybody take stand up for anything.

there are some who believe women shouldn't speak in church......I disagree.....but what if they were able to enforce their belief on everyone? This is the world you are preparing for yourself, when you start taking away people's right to follow their own heart and beliefs.
Spare me the slippery slope. (A) If you're American, you already live in something skin to tyranny anyway and (B) there's a lot of empty ground between murdering babies and not allowing women to speak in the Church. Drawing some kind of moral equivalence between the two is completely asinine.
 
Upvote 0

Vicomte13

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2016
3,655
1,816
Westport, Connecticut
✟93,837.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
No, it's about abortion. Thanks though.
But let's keep it just on abortion, then.

Abortion is the intentional slaying of a wholly innocent and helpless child.
It is first degree murder.

The murderers are the mother, the doctor, the attending nurses.
The abettors of the murder are the secretarial staff and the boyfriend who pays for the murder. They don't pull the trigger, but a death results from their actions to aid the commission of a felony, so they are felony murderers.

All are eligible for the death penalty.
If we want to stop abortion cold, all we need to do is execute one mother who aborts her child per abortion clinic. We may then execute the entire staff of each abortion clinic for that one murder.

Soon, there will be no more abortion clinics, no more abortion trained doctors or nurses, and no more abortion.

Problem solved, by treating abortion as murder, which is what it is.

We don't even need a vote on this.

The Supreme Court can overrule Roe, not as a state's rights issue, but as a civil rights issue - the murder of an infant without due process. Then federal murder charges can be brought against abortionists, staffers and mothers and financier boyfriends, and parents who drive the baby and mother to the slaughter, in every state, the executions can be carried out, and the nation frightened into ending abortion, in one fell, just swoop.
 
Upvote 0

Archivist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 5, 2004
17,332
6,425
Morgantown, West Virginia, USA
✟571,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
No, it's about abortion. Thanks though.

Actually it is a discussion about what is a pro-choice Christian. That is a different discussion from abortion.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: RaymondG
Upvote 0

Winken

Heimat
Supporter
Sep 24, 2010
5,709
3,505
✟168,847.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

MoonlessNight

Fides et Ratio
Sep 16, 2003
10,217
3,523
✟63,049.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
But let's keep it just on abortion, then.

Abortion is the intentional slaying of a wholly innocent and helpless child.
It is first degree murder.

The murderers are the mother, the doctor, the attending nurses.
The abettors of the murder are the secretarial staff and the boyfriend who pays for the murder. They don't pull the trigger, but a death results from their actions to aid the commission of a felony, so they are felony murderers.

All are eligible for the death penalty.
If we want to stop abortion cold, all we need to do is execute one mother who aborts her child per abortion clinic. We may then execute the entire staff of each abortion clinic for that one murder.

Soon, there will be no more abortion clinics, no more abortion trained doctors or nurses, and no more abortion.

Problem solved, by treating abortion as murder, which is what it is.

We don't even need a vote on this.

The Supreme Court can overrule Roe, not as a state's rights issue, but as a civil rights issue - the murder of an infant without due process. Then federal murder charges can be brought against abortionists, staffers and mothers and financier boyfriends, and parents who drive the baby and mother to the slaughter, in every state, the executions can be carried out, and the nation frightened into ending abortion, in one fell, just swoop.

Again, given that you've asked us to reevaluate whether the death penalty is necessary at all, why would you think that this follows?
 
Upvote 0

RaymondG

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2016
8,545
3,816
USA
✟268,974.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This libertarian view you're employing overlooks the fact that most law is predicated upon some sense of morality. It's someone's idea of what's right and what's wrong enshrined into law and enforced by people who wear badges and carry guns.

In effect, we're ALL forced to abide by laws with which we may not agree. Why people suddenly become libertarians when the subject turns to protecting innocent life is absolutely puzzling to me. But it's absolutely gutless because it doesn't require anybody take stand up for anything.

Spare me the slippery slope. (A) If you're American, you already live in something skin to tyranny anyway and (B) there's a lot of empty ground between murdering babies and not allowing women to speak in the Church. Drawing some kind of moral equivalence between the two is completely asinine.
I have not once spoke about murdering babies or abortion. You cant just let people be. IF you think they have a different belief than you, you group them together and give them a name and add negative connotations to the name, todays name are libertarians, pro-choice, and pro-life.

The only name I have for you is Child of God. And I have nothing negative to say about anything you believe and no other group I associate you with.

I have strong beliefs which are true for me, and I stand for them. I just don't force my beliefs on others and try not to look down on them if they believe and do differently. I do it mainly because this is how I would like to be treated as well......But it isn't working out too well for me in this tread.......But maybe one day in the future I will reap what I've tried to sow.

Time for me to bow out.
 
Upvote 0

Vicomte13

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2016
3,655
1,816
Westport, Connecticut
✟93,837.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Again, given that you've asked us to reevaluate whether the death penalty is necessary at all, why would you think that this follows?

Because it's one or the other. If it IS valid, then therefore, because abortion is murder, we must execute.

Should we?
 
Upvote 0

MoonlessNight

Fides et Ratio
Sep 16, 2003
10,217
3,523
✟63,049.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Because it's one or the other. If it IS valid, then therefore, because abortion is murder, we must execute.

Should we?

Do you hold that we must execute every murderer, anyone who assisted in a murder, and anyone who abets a murderer?

Because if you don't your dichotomy falls apart. And indeed the fact that there are other options would be so obvious that I would question your motives for making such a fallacious argument.

Of course, if you do believe that anyone even remotely connected to a murder must be executed, then your argument would be honest, if one built on uncommon premises.

So do you hold that belief or not?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Vicomte13

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2016
3,655
1,816
Westport, Connecticut
✟93,837.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Actually it is a discussion about what is a pro-choice Christian. That is a different discussion from abortion.

Ok. A pro-choice Christian is a Christian who thinks that abortion on demand should be legal.
 
Upvote 0

Vicomte13

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2016
3,655
1,816
Westport, Connecticut
✟93,837.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Do you hold that we must execute every murderer, anyone who assisted in a murder, and anyone who abets a murderer?

Because if you don't your dichotomy falls apart. And indeed the fact that there are other options would be so obvious that I would question your motives for making such a fallacious argument.

Of course, if you do believe that anyone even remotely connected to a murder must be executed, then your argument would be honest, if one built on uncommon premises.

So do you hold that belief or not?

God said: He who sheds man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed. That is the Law - not the law of Moses, which never applied to anybody but Hebrews, but the law of Noah, which has applied to the entirety of mankind since Noah.

However, in the law of Moses God made it clear that he cared about process. If you THINK somebody is a killer, and you kill him but he didn't, then you're a killer yourself, and liable to the penalty. We don't have to follow the law of Moses with regard to process, but in it, God laid out a process that made it impossible to mistakenly convict anybody of murder. First, two or three witnesses were required, and the penalty for perjury was that the witnesses would be put to death. The penalty for being a false juror or judge was, likewise, the same penalty: death. Everybody involved in a murder trial faced the death penalty for any dishonesty: judge, jury, officials, witnesses. To have evidence and NOT testify was also a lie by omission, and carried the death penalty. Remaining silent with exculpatory evidence was a death penalty offense.

So, everybody in the whole process faced death, not just the accused.

And then, if there was any doubt, the appeal could be made upwards, and the High Priest could ultimately consult God directly, through the Urim and Thummim, to determine from God the truth of guilt or innocence. Note that a determination that the accused was innocent meant the death of those who testified against him as witnesses to his guilt: they lied.

THAT process ensures guilt, and strongly militates against perjury. God imposed that on Israel, not the world. But in it, the seriousness with which God took the trial process - that ACTUAL guilt is required to kill a man for murder - is clear.

Our processes are not anything remotely like that. Our court system is a casino, justice is based on ability to pay, popularity, skill of the lawyer. And of course we have no Urim and Thummim.

Given that our process is wholly inadequate for determining actual guilt, I oppose the death penalty in America. Because the executioner - Oh, yes, and the witnesses who testified against the accused had to actually perform the execution, under the Mosaic law - is a murderer if he kills an innocent man. He chose to earn his living killing people, after all, so he is liable for innocent deaths EVEN IF the casino justice system got it wrong.

I oppose the American death penalty because our judicial process is utterly corrupt and our system of justice is completely unreliable.

If we had a reliable one, then of course all murderers should be put to death, and if an abortion is a murder, then the participants in an abortion, likewise, should be put to death. So should the police when they kill an innocent man.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.