What is a pro-choice Christian?

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PapaZoom

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A Pro-choice christian, I guess would be a christian who believes that people have the right to use the free will God gave them. God doesn't force anyone to do anything, like most christian say when asked about why we go to hell. So why would a Christian try force their will on anyone else.....via shame, ridicule, law or any other method?
Try speeding. Or prostitution. Or go to Texas and try a home invasion. A Christian cop will pull you over and give you a healthy ticket (forcing the will of the State on you). A Christian judge will sentence you for prostitution and it's either jail or a fine (more forcing the will of the State on you). And if a Christian home owner is home when you use your free will to invade his home, he will shoot you dead. With free will, comes responsibility. Free will doesn't give us the right to do as we please. It gives us the right (and the freedom) to do what pleases God.
 
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PapaZoom

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God will stop you. If you live by the sword you will die by it. What you do to others will be done to you. It's the law.

However my comment was about taking away your right to choose.....not stopping you from continuing to commit crimes after you have decided that you want to continue doing them.

It seems that you have a belief of morality and if you can force them on others, you will do whatever is in your power to do so.

I, for one, wouldnt want to be confined by the thoughts of others.....so i try not to push mine on others as well.

Im sure you can think of other religions that have rules you wouldnt want forced on you.......so why is it ok for you to force your rules on others? Have you deemed yourself more moral than others and therefore have the right....when others...not so much?

"Right to choose" is just a way to hide the truth of what is really happening: Killing pre-born human beings.
 
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parousia70

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So because A has F, if B supports A, therefore B also supports F.

Sorry, no. Supporting the Holy Land and the birthplace of Christianity is not the same as supporting abortion.

If a Christian supports Canada, which has laws that will get you thrown in jail for "sexists, homophobic, or transphobic remarks" means that therefore they must support the suppression of free speech. By your logic that is.

See how that makes no sense?

So a Christian can support Planned Parenthood since they do other stuff besides Abortions.

Gotcha.
 
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PapaZoom

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I might be suggesting that some pro-lifers wish to punish women for having abortions, ... though not that all of them do.

I don't feel that the government should support abortion, either through support for Planned Parenthood, ... or for insurance coverage for abortion.

I used to be a supporter of the Republican party (all through the Reagan/Bush Sr./Clinton/Bush Jr. presidencies), ... until it became evident that they weren't going to be successful at changing the government's support of abortion. Now I favor actions like the support of competitive facilities (i.e. Crisis Pregnancy Centers).

In the meantime, the Republican Party has developed/exacebated its own issues, which have served to take abortion off of the table as a major difference between the parties.

I'm a pro lifer. If a woman kills her two year old child because she no longer wants him/her or because she can't afford the child, I want her punished. In the same way, when she has her pre-born baby (as described by all prenatal professionals) she shouldn't be punished? Meanwhile, a precious little pre-born baby (notice it's a baby only if the pro choice crowd wants the child other wise they hide what it is in other language) is slaughtered in the womb.
 
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parousia70

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Good grief..... how far can this be stretched? Christianity has nothing to do with nationalism.

How Far can Christian Blind support for Christ Rejecting Israel be stretched?
I have yet to see the limits.
 
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parousia70

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Thats pure lies. Israel only allows abortion up to 24 weeks if the pregnancy fits into the reasons allowed and is approved by a committee.

So you support Israeli Abortions, just not U.S. abortions.

ok....

Please stop spreading Anti-Semitic lies on here

What exactly is Anti Semitic about holding a "Pro Israeli Life" position?
 
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parousia70

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I'm a pro lifer. If a woman kills her two year old child because she no longer wants him/her or because she can't afford the child, I want her punished. In the same way, when she has her pre-born baby (as described by all prenatal professionals) she shouldn't be punished? Meanwhile, a precious little pre-born baby (notice it's a baby only if the pro choice crowd wants the child other wise they hide what it is in other language) is slaughtered in the womb.

How about Miscarriage?
Punishable offense?

Should it be illegal for Pregnant women to go outside if its snowing or Icy, since that would irresponsibly put the baby at risk of death if she slipped and fell?

Should probably make it illegal for her to ride in or drive a car too, since the preborn baby can not be sufficiently restrained to prevent injury/death in case of an automobile accident?

Nanny state lovers Unite!
 
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PapaZoom

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Life is complicated, and our ethics has to be complicated too.

Obviously, abortion involves conflicting goods. A woman's autonomy over her own body, and the perceived sanctity of human life.

Women don't have complete autonomy over their own bodies. There are things that aren't legal for women (or men) to do with their bodies. Some of those things can land you in jail. So that argument fails on its face.
 
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PapaZoom

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As I pointed out in my original post, pro-choice advocates say women should be free to choose abortion, but they don't think financially successful people should be free to choose how to spend their money because they typically favor placing high, burdensome taxes on the rich. I think dishonesty is the reason for the inconsistency. When someone says they're pro-choice, they really mean to say they want to sleep around without the possibility of getting pregnant.

They also typically oppose school choice (which I favor and I taught for nearly 30 years in a public school.)
 
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PapaZoom

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How about Miscarriage?
Punishable offense?
Of course not. A woman has no control over that.

Should it be illegal for Pregnant women to go outside if its snowing or Icy, since that would irresponsibly put the baby at risk of death if she slipped and fell?
No. Most women I know would take precautions against that sort of thing. Being a former Minnesotan, I know about icy conditions.

Should probably make it illegal for her to ride in or drive a car too, since the preborn baby can not be sufficiently restrained to prevent injury/death in case of an automobile accident?
Now you're being silly
Nanny state lovers Unite!

Please quote me exactly and show how what I said is a Nanny state argument.
 
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fat wee robin

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You are suggesting that pro-lifers want to punish women for having abortions, which isn't true. Many pro-life advocates believe that women who get abortions are themselves victims, and the real culprits are the doctors who kill the unborn and liberals who mislead women into thinking that abortion is "just a choice" like choosing which neighborhood to live in.

And what does "render undo Caesar" have anything to do with the subject at hand? Are you suggesting that Matthew 22:21 is telling Christians to support or at least tolerate abortion just because it's the law of the land? In Nazi Germany, killing Jews and other "undermensch" was the law of the land at the time. That does not mean German Christians in the '30s and '40s should have supported or tolerated genocide because the Bible teaches to obey authority in various parts of the New Testament.
You are correct there ,as the overwhelming incidents of violence are done by men . Men who often espouse to be christian ,but in fact rape and pressurise women to have sex . Less now ,but rape has become reportable only recently as a crime , and even then most women do not report because the treatment they recieve , can be worse than the violation.

So, when hypocritical christians start to be truly christian ,then the world will change .
The idea that goes round comes round ,and in the past women had no recourse to justice at all ,so God provides that while we are still living .The false idea that justice comes after death always ,is just that .A false idea.
And when you are talking of 'murder ' , genocide , your example is wrong ,as you cannot seperate a baby from the mother until it is born . Perhaps you would like to kill the mother instead ,as the RCC did in the past to 'save' the baby .
 
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Living Soul

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If pro-life supporters would financially and spiritually support all pregnancies fully,
then the pro-choice argument would evaporate.

Support how exactly? Have you been to a pro-choice rally lately. It's pretty tough to love and support someone who's bashing your face in with a stick and spraying you with pepper spray when you tell then you love Jesus.

Becasue the pro-choice argument is really about finances and social support for an endless number of children per family who are avoiding birth control.

Yes, the pro-choice argument is about putting money over life. I'm glad you wrote this actually.
 
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parousia70

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Of course not. A woman has no control over that.

Sure she does. She may not have TOTAL control, but she clearly has a certain degree of it...
She needs to eat right, not smoke, not drink, and not put herself into needless situations that risk the baby, though yes, If she does all that and God still wants to Abort the Baby, He will.

No. Most women I know would take precautions against that sort of thing. Being a former Minnesotan, I know about icy conditions.

Most but not all?
What of the ones that Don't take those precautions? Should the State step in?
Most women don't have abortions either.
Does that mean the ones that do should be left alone by the State, or should the State step in?

Please quote me exactly and show how what I said is a Nanny state argument.

Just taking it to it's logical conclusion
 
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KWCrazy

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Right. But keep in mind,
we have no concern for the mother's health before or after
or of the unborn's health or life before or after.
Who is "we?"
Abortion is almost never a health issue. It's the killing of a baby, generally by a young unwed mother who engages in consensual sex without using birth control. At the very least abortion should be like other optional surgeries; the person who gets the abortion should have to pay for it. Maybe if there was at least SOME foreseeable consequence at least a few more people would use birth control and lives would be saved. The father, if known, should also bear financial responsibility. If you don;t take responsibility for your actions you aren't a man, and if you aren't a man you don't get to have sex.
 
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parousia70

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Seeing as only 1/3 - 1/2 of fertilized eggs, when left alone, result in a live Birth, it would seem God is the single most successful practitioner of abortion out there. We simply call it "spontaneous abortion".

Certainly in the OT, He even commanded humans to do His aborting for Him (when His divine hand of doling out miscarriages to 1/2 - 2/3 of fertilizations apparently didn't fully satisfy Him):

Hosea 9:11-16 Hosea prays for God's intervention. Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. . .Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. Clearly Hosea desires that the people of Ephraim can no longer have children. God of course obeys by making all their unborn children miscarry.

Numbers 5:11-21 The description of a bizarre, brutal and abusive ritual to be performed on a wife SUSPECTED of adultery. This is nothing less than an induced abortion to rid a woman of another man's child.

Numbers 31:17 (Moses) Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him. (In other words: women that might be pregnant, which clearly is abortion for the fetus.)

Hosea 13:16 God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the their women with child shall be ripped up. Once again, God kills the unborn, including their pregnant mothers.

2 Kings 15:16 God commands that the pregnant women of Tappuah (aka Tiphsah) to be ripped open.

For me, I'd choose against having an abortion, every and any time..

...But to suggest God is against the ending of all fetal life, in light if the scriptural testimony above, as well as His Divine decision that 1/2 to 2/3 of successful fertilizations must end in Miscarriage, is simply untenable.

Maybe it's only a problem when people do it apart from His orders to do it?
 
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A_Thinker

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The father, if known, should also bear financial responsibility. If you don;t take responsibility for your actions you aren't a man, and if you aren't a man you don't get to have sex.

Good luck with that ...
 
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RaymondG

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Try speeding. Or prostitution. Or go to Texas and try a home invasion. A Christian cop will pull you over and give you a healthy ticket (forcing the will of the State on you). A Christian judge will sentence you for prostitution and it's either jail or a fine (more forcing the will of the State on you). And if a Christian home owner is home when you use your free will to invade his home, he will shoot you dead. With free will, comes responsibility. Free will doesn't give us the right to do as we please. It gives us the right (and the freedom) to do what pleases God.

Speeding in the city is not speeding on the highway. Prostitution is legal in some states....but i bet you wouldnt want them forcing "Prostitution is OK" on you and you family, just because they decide that it is legal right? Home invasion is a Tv show in which the invasion is welcomed and the invaded are better off after.

Good and bad is subjective. Just because you saw bad in those terms doesnt mean all will. Just because you believe one thing, doesnt mean you should look down on others who dont.

Free will does come with responsibility....My responsibility is to exercise it in the will of God for men to see and glorify the Father......You seem to think it your responsibility to make sure everyone else is doing what you believe they should. You think you have all the right answers and beliefs and therefore the right to force them on others....... But what happens when the situation is reversed? Will you, so eagerly, except the forced morals from the one that will force them on you?

Yes free will gives us the right to do what God Please and you should not take away that right. What if God tells me to sacrifice my son? would you force me to not do it? Good thing you werent around in the days of Abraham.....
 
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RaymondG

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"Right to choose" is just a way to hide the truth of what is really happening: Killing pre-born human beings.
I never gave an opinion on abortion. I only spoke in support of your right to say and believe and do what you are doing right now. You are conversing with yourself.
 
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MoonlessNight

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Seeing as only 1/3 - 1/2 of fertilized eggs, when left alone, result in a live Birth, it would seem God is the single most successful practitioner of abortion out there. We simply call it "spontaneous abortion".

This argument is quite frankly one of the most idiotic that I've ever seen, and yet it still keeps coming up.

It's only very recently that infant mortality has become rare. For most of human history, and still today in parts of the world, it was a quite normal thing for a child to die in the first year after birth, usually of a disease or some other natural cause.

Would we then say that child murder is justified based on this evidence? Of course not.
 
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