Why Republican Ideals Are Not God's Plan

SupernovaK · Sep 19, 2017

Traveling teacher said:
While democrats have forced americans since the 1960s to give government welfare to those who refuse to work...

This is the following reaults.....
1. They have caused a breakdown in the family unit by excusing deadbeat dads not to support their families
2. This has caused a dependency of the poor on welfare without training them and has resulted in generational poverty for the last 3 generations
3. Government is 20 trillion in debt
4. 40% of americans donot work amd are supporte by the other 60% to sit around and do nothing
5. Not much diifferent than the failed atate of socialism and communism
6. Those who do not work in the inner cities are corrupted with crime and drug dealling
7. Becuse of this drugs and crime has destroyed the inner cities of Amercia....specifically Chicago, detroit.......
Thes 2 cities and others are heavily owned by democrat and government susidies......

This is why the Bible says he that doesnt work shoudnt eat
2 thesselonians 3:10

So you're arguing that the bible's commands to be charitable are destructive to society?

Not only are these claims not factual (for example, 40% of unemployed Americans would have to take into account homemakers, retired persons, and children -- the real number of people seeking jobs is currently around 5%) but they reflect a very simple understanding of how the economy works. Honestly, I don't think you know enough that a discussion with you could possibly be beneficial to either of us.

SupernovaK · Sep 19, 2017

OldWiseGuy said:
What is your definition of a biblical contradiction?

A biblical contradiction is a set of two facts stated by the bible that are mutually exclusive and therefore can't both be true. Consider some obvious ones, such as the nature of Jesus in John as opposed to the rest of the gospels. Jesus never personally claims to be God or the Messiah in any of the first three gospels, and when Peter says "I think you are the Christ", Jesus tells him to keep it to himself. So when Jesus appears before Pilate in these gospels, Jesus doesn't bother to defend himself and no one can find evidence of his blasphemy. Pilate even marvels over Jesus' silence. Matthew 27:12-14 However, in the gospel of John, Jesus can't stop talking about how he's God. All of the "I am" statements are found in John, and only in John. Jesus is constantly "blaspheming" by telling people of his divinity. So when he appears before Pilate, alone because his accusers couldn't enter the judgment hall in this story, Jesus has a lot to say in his defense. John 18:33-37 After all, no "false witnesses" have to be dredged up in this case to find evidence of Jesus speaking of his divinity in this context. Since Jesus can't have both been silent before Pilate and given the (at least) 3 speeches to Pilate, this constitutes a contradiction... one of many.

OldWiseGuy · Sep 19, 2017

SupernovaK said:
You're still missing details. The end of the Matthew narrative clearly gives an explanation for why they can't return to Jerusalem and why they instead settle in Nazareth. This explanation isn't necessary if Nazareth had ever been their hometown. Also, Luke's narrative about visiting Elizabeth doesn't solve these problems but rather adds a new one -- if John the Baptist was Jesus' age and living in the same area, then how was he not killed in the "massacre of the innocents" when Herod sought to kill Jesus? Almost any answer you can come up with begs the question of why Jesus' family didn't do the same thing.

John was a Jew, not a Benjamite. Herod killed the children in and around Bethlehem because he learned that Jesus was born there and expected him to still be there. The Benjamite 'Jews' lived in the towns around Jerusalem, which goes back to when they formed much of the fighting force of the Kingdom of Judah, Jerusalem being the principle city and home of true Jews. As Rachael was mother to Benjamin 'she' and not Leah, who was mother of Judah, wept in Rama, a Benjamite city.

SupernovaK · Sep 19, 2017

OldWiseGuy said:
John was a Jew, not a Benjamite. Herod killed the children in and around Bethlehem because he learned that Jesus was born there and expected him to still be there. The Benjamite 'Jews' lived in the towns around Jerusalem, which goes back to when they formed much of the fighting force of the Kingdom of Judah, Jerusalem being the principle city and home of true Jews. As Rachael was mother to Benjamin 'she' and not Leah, who was mother of Judah, wept in Rama, a Benjamite city.

As I already said, any explanation begs the question of "why didn't Mary and Joseph just do the same". If it was safe to "live in the towns around Jerusalem", why flee to Egypt?

OldWiseGuy · Sep 19, 2017

SupernovaK said:
As I already said, any explanation begs the question of "why didn't Mary and Joseph just do the same". If it was safe to "live in the towns around Jerusalem", why flee to Egypt?

It wasn't safe to remain there. Herod targeted those towns. And there were prophetic reasons given for both Egypt and Nazareth. The account doesn't reveal where John was at that time. If he was anywhere outside of the "coasts" of Bethlehem he was safe from Herod.

OldWiseGuy · Sep 19, 2017

SupernovaK said:
As I already said, any explanation begs the question of "why didn't Mary and Joseph just do the same". If it was safe to "live in the towns around Jerusalem", why flee to Egypt?

Zacharias was a priest and undoubtedly lived in Jerusalem and maybe near the temple, well away from the towns attacked by Herod.

These 'contradictions' you are trying to construct just........aren't there. :scratch:

Hank77 · Sep 19, 2017

SupernovaK said:
The end of the Matthew narrative clearly gives an explanation for why they can't return to Jerusalem and why they instead settle in Nazareth.

?

SupernovaK said:
This explanation isn't necessary if Nazareth had ever been their hometown.

?

SupernovaK said:
Also, Luke's narrative about visiting Elizabeth doesn't solve these problems but rather adds a new one -

? Where did Luke say anything about visiting Elizabeth?

SupernovaK said:
if John the Baptist was Jesus' age and living in the same area, then how was he not killed in the "massacre of the innocents" when Herod sought to kill Jesus? Almost any answer you can come up with begs the question of why Jesus' family didn't do the same thing.

John the Baptist's birth would have been before the timeline that the magi gave to Herod about when they saw the sign in the night sky.
God told Joseph to take his family to Egypt.

rjs330 · Sep 19, 2017

The Brown Brink said:
Yes, I agree with you about how complicated the tax system is.
And I heard that it's our politicians who keep it complicated.
They deliberately use the promise of tax-cuts to manipulate our vote...and apparently it works so well for them that they ignore the nation's demand to simplify taxes...
Sweet, huh.

If you're barely making enough money to get by, the government isn't supposed to take half of it.
That's detrimental to you and your country, both. Nobody WANTS you to be poor.

But why are you barely making enough money to get by...in a country where education is free?
Why aren't you succeeding?

And if you are succeeding, isn't it because your country is keeping you safe?
Should you keep all your money for yourself, if it's your country that makes it possible for you even to HAVE money, at all? Bigger, smarter, faster or more desperate people than you could come take everything away from you...and if it weren't for your country, they would.
Shouldn't you be grateful to your country for this protection?
Shouldn't you pay taxes for that protection?

And, in Kentucky, it's the Republicans who are disincentivized and live off the government.
They're all around me.
I live in a Republican county.
I've known these Republicans all my life.

I know that the industries nearby beg for employees, but the locals here in this Republican county can't meet the requirements of employment.
Many of them can barely read because they didn't get their free education.
A lot of them are addicted to something...
And a lot of them are resentful of authority and can't follow orders.
So they have babies instead and get their government check.
Around here, that's what Republicans are like.

So I hear Republicans complain about their country...and then I see them use my tax money to have babies.

In Kentucky, it's the Republicans who don't pull their own weight.
They didn't want their free education.
They don't want a job.
But they DO want their country to take care of them.

I don't understand Republicans.

It's not Republicans it's people. Democrats have people like that and so do the Republicans. None of them should be like that. The discussion here is how Republicans ideals are not God's plan. General Republican or better yet constitutional conservatives do not agree with living the way you described. And the way you described is not biblical.

rjs330 · Sep 19, 2017

SupernovaK said:
Do you have anything to add to this discussion aside from disparaging prejudice about poor people? I'd be happy to discuss the root causes of poverty, and they aren't based on stereotypes. But this issue is irrelevant, because you're just re-iterating the belief that the poor aren't "deserving", and God didn't factor that into his commands. In fact, if all of the poor are undeserving as you believe, then commands to give charity to the poor such as in Luke 14:13 prove that God wants you to give to the undeserving, and thus my point is made.

Can you prove that any of my points are wrong? I've been poor. My family was poor.
One thing I need to clarify about choices. I didn't do a good job of that. Some people are poor by choice. They choose to work in a field that does not pay well. Most of the time that is based upon a conviction that what they are doing is more important than money. I applaud that kind of thinking.

But other than that you cannot prove me wrong when it comes to the poor in America. I'm not talking third world countries here but in the good old USA. All of my points are completely accurate.

Like I said, I've been poor. But I didn't stay poor. I worked my way out of poverty.

Let me reiterate. I am not talking about people who were poor at some point in their life. I am talking about people who are chronically poor and can't get out of the poor lifestyle.

Hank77 · Sep 19, 2017

SupernovaK said:
A biblical contradiction is a set of two facts stated by the bible that are mutually exclusive and therefore can't both be true. Consider some obvious ones, such as the nature of Jesus in John as opposed to the rest of the gospels. Jesus never personally claims to be God or the Messiah in any of the first three gospels, and when Peter says "I think you are the Christ", Jesus tells him to keep it to himself. So when Jesus appears before Pilate in these gospels, Jesus doesn't bother to defend himself and no one can find evidence of his blasphemy. Pilate even marvels over Jesus' silence. Matthew 27:12-14 However, in the gospel of John, Jesus can't stop talking about how he's God. All of the "I am" statements are found in John, and only in John. Jesus is constantly "blaspheming" by telling people of his divinity. So when he appears before Pilate, alone because his accusers couldn't enter the judgment hall in this story, Jesus has a lot to say in his defense. John 18:33-37 After all, no "false witnesses" have to be dredged up in this case to find evidence of Jesus speaking of his divinity in this context. Since Jesus can't have both been silent before Pilate and given the (at least) 3 speeches to Pilate, this constitutes a contradiction... one of many.

Jesus wasn't accused of 'blasphemy' when brought to Pilate. Pilate couldn't care less about the Jews and their religious differences. What Pilate couldn't find any evidence of was Jesus trying to raise a rebellion against the Rome.

rjs330 · Sep 19, 2017

SupernovaK said:
Do you have anything to add to this discussion aside from disparaging prejudice about poor people? I'd be happy to discuss the root causes of poverty, and they aren't based on stereotypes. But this issue is irrelevant, because you're just re-iterating the belief that the poor aren't "deserving", and God didn't factor that into his commands. In fact, if all of the poor are undeserving as you believe, then commands to give charity to the poor such as in Luke 14:13 prove that God wants you to give to the undeserving, and thus my point is made.

You are right that God never said the poor are undeserving of help. I never said they were. You ASSUMED based upon your own predjudice of people like me. I gave the truth on the poor and you automatically determined I hate the poor and don't think we should help them in any way.
I've helped a lot of poor people so shame on you.

rjs330 · Sep 19, 2017

SupernovaK said:
I'm quite certain that the bible never teaches what a government should have to do, though it does tell you as a citizen to submit to the government because God put it in place. Romans 13:1-3. So if the government is paying for charity, that's what "the powers ordained by god" would have you do, and God wants you to pay the required tax to allow it to do that. Matthew 22:20-22 And since God wants you to give to the poor Proverbs 19:17 Deuteronomy 15:7-11 Luke 3:11 then I imagine he'd want (and you should want) the government to do the same, since it is the moral thing to do. Are those enough biblical citations? Is there a magic number that would actually convince you, or am I wasting my time?

I understand the Bible very well thank you. God does tell us to obey and pay our taxes. Have you heard anyone in this thread say we shouldn't? I pay my taxes just like any good citizen does. But you still haven't given any scriptures to prove that Jesus or the apostles commanded governments or anyone else to take money from people and give it to other people. The scripture always points to a personal responsibility. The ONLY corporate care ever commanded in scripture is for the church to take care of their own. And even that is limited. Jesus and the apostles also never told us how much we have to give or how much we have to provide. The rest of it is always a personal command for the individual. You need to get your doctrine right.

rjs330 · Sep 19, 2017

SupernovaK said:
A biblical contradiction is a set of two facts stated by the bible that are mutually exclusive and therefore can't both be true. Consider some obvious ones, such as the nature of Jesus in John as opposed to the rest of the gospels. Jesus never personally claims to be God or the Messiah in any of the first three gospels, and when Peter says "I think you are the Christ", Jesus tells him to keep it to himself. So when Jesus appears before Pilate in these gospels, Jesus doesn't bother to defend himself and no one can find evidence of his blasphemy. Pilate even marvels over Jesus' silence. Matthew 27:12-14 However, in the gospel of John, Jesus can't stop talking about how he's God. All of the "I am" statements are found in John, and only in John. Jesus is constantly "blaspheming" by telling people of his divinity. So when he appears before Pilate, alone because his accusers couldn't enter the judgment hall in this story, Jesus has a lot to say in his defense. John 18:33-37 After all, no "false witnesses" have to be dredged up in this case to find evidence of Jesus speaking of his divinity in this context. Since Jesus can't have both been silent before Pilate and given the (at least) 3 speeches to Pilate, this constitutes a contradiction... one of many.

You don't really believe that do you? Do you hold all historical documents to the same standard or just the Bible? What is going on is what's called different focus and different details. Just because one document adds details to events doesn't mean it's contradicting the events. Read any number of history books on the life of George Washington. You'll find different details in each book with a different focus. Do we all run around claiming the books all contradict each other and therefore none of them can be trusted? Of course not. We understand that there are differences and some books include details that others don't. Some books focus on particular things and events. None of that means the books are unreliable. You are just predjudiced against Scripture.

Traveling teacher · Sep 19, 2017

2 issues that I stand with Republicans on with a Biblical basis
He that doesnt work shoudnt eat

Overtaxing people and running up debt....20 trillion$
The Bible calls excessive debt slavery and sin

rjs330 · Sep 19, 2017

Traveling teacher said:
2 issues that I stand with Republicans on with a Biblical basis
He that doesnt work shoudnt eat

Overtaxing people and running up debt....20 trillion$
The Bible calls excessive debt slavery and sin

You make an excellent point that I have not thought of. Excessive debt of the government to pay it's obligations also puts each of us indebt which also violates scripture. This debt would include all money spent by the government and not just money spent on the poor and entitlements.

Traveling teacher · Sep 19, 2017

Every American born is in debt to the government for 70,000$$$$$$$

If democrats cared about the poor they would close the borders and stopthe drug running from destroying our inner cities....
They would also create job training programs instead of free government handouts for doing nothing.....
Getting paid for not working is a sin
Accorrding to
2 thesselonians 3:10

The Brown Brink · Sep 19, 2017

rjs330 said:
It's not Republicans it's people. Democrats have people like that and so do the Republicans. None of them should be like that. The discussion here is how Republicans ideals are not God's plan. General Republican or better yet constitutional conservatives do not agree with living the way you described. And the way you described is not biblical.

Yes, I know.
That's why I don't understand Republicans.

They complain that people should help themselves, yet, around here, they're the first in line for assistance...

Why are they Republicans?
I don't get it.

The Brown Brink · Sep 19, 2017

If they themselves need help, why don't they accept that others need help, too?

The Brown Brink · Sep 19, 2017

Traveling teacher said:
Every American born is in debt to the government for 70,000$$$$$$$

If democrats cared about the poor they would close the borders and stopthe drug running from destroying our inner cities....
They would also create job training programs instead of free government handouts for doing nothing.....
Getting paid for not working is a sin
Accorrding to
2 thesselonians 3:10

Democrats do create job training.
They support education.
Education is the solution to many of America's problems but Republicans keep cutting our education funds...

And our national debt balloons when a Republican gets in office.
We get involved in some war somewhere and money just disappears.

Certainly that's not biblical...

The Brown Brink · Sep 19, 2017

Why do Republicans like war so much and not education?

Why Republican Ideals Are Not God's Plan

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