Did Jesus have any brothers and sisters?

Root of Jesse · Jun 7, 2017

SteveCaruso said:
I have a number of objections from historical and linguistic standpoints. This is an incredibly convoluted argument that assumes several unfounded assumptions which will take me some time to unpack and properly respond to.

You will have to forgive me if I do not get around to it for several days as I simply cannot prioritize the time to do so presently.

I don't care if you do or don't. It's not going to change my mind. It's not convoluted at all when you consider what the Early Church Fathers have to say about it. Mary was ever-Virgin.

JackRT · Jun 7, 2017

There are non-canonical scriptures which name Jesus' sisters as Mary and Salome.

Dan61861 · Jun 7, 2017

Root of Jesse said:
But the fact remains that, while the Bible speaks clearly of Jesus' brothers, it never speaks of Mary's other children.

Psalm 69:8 I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother's children.

In Christ
Daniel

SteveCaruso · Jun 7, 2017

Root of Jesse said:
I don't care if you do or don't. It's not going to change my mind.

Then we are not actually having a conversation in the first place as an open mind in the prerequisite for that. I find it frustrating that the Good Lord doesn't tend to provide reimbursements for time wasted.

prodromos · Jun 8, 2017

SteveCaruso said:
Then we are not actually having a conversation in the first place as an open mind in the prerequisite for that.

Once you have found the truth, there isn't much point in entertaining false knowledge, is there? Feel free to pick it apart for the benefit of lurkers though.

I find it frustrating that the Good Lord doesn't tend to provide reimbursements for time wasted.

You don't know that it is wasted though. Others are reading.

prodromos · Jun 8, 2017

JackRT said:
There are non-canonical scriptures which name Jesus' sisters as Mary and Salome.

Which texts are you referring to?

Quid est Veritas? · Jun 8, 2017

SteveCaruso said:
The choice of font face determining the validity of a statement is a new one to me.

No, but Punctuation certainly does. There is an inverse relationship between amount of exclamation marks and validity of the statement made.

JackRT · Jun 8, 2017

prodromos said:
Which texts are you referring to?

A passage in the Gospel of Philip states that the three most important women in Jesus' life were all named Mary. They were Mary his mother, Mary his sister and Mary Magdalene his companion. I do not at the moment recall where I found the reference to Salome.

Ron Gurley · Sep 19, 2017

Let's get FACTUAL and BIBLICAL.

Mary was a virgin (a fertile teenager?)
She was legally betrothed to Joseph ( a devout bachelor and older carpenter with no evidence of prior children)
Mary was of the blood line of Jesus.
Joseph was of the legal line of Jesus.
After the birth of Jesus, they consummated in legal marriage.
Mary conceived Jesus without sperm joining her egg/"seed".
Jewish tradition and Law: "Be fruitful and multiply".
There were many half brothers and sisters of the "one flesh" union of Mary and Joseph.
John the Elder was the only disciple/apostle/half brother-sister who showed up at the Cross.

How does the RCC false doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary glorify the TRI-UNE GOD?

Radagast · Sep 19, 2017

Ron Gurley said:
John the Elder was the only disciple/apostle/half brother-sister who showed up at the Cross.

The Apostle John was probably a cousin of Jesus, since his mother was probably Mary's sister (compare John 19:25, Mark 15:40, and Matthew 27:56). He wasn't a half-brother of Jesus.

Quasar92 · Sep 19, 2017

Ron Gurley said:
Let's get FACTUAL and BIBLICAL.

Mary was a virgin (a fertile teenager?)
She was legally betrothed to Joseph ( a devout bachelor and older carpenter with no evidence of prior children)
Mary was of the blood line of Jesus.
Joseph was of the legal line of Jesus.
After the birth of Jesus, they consummated in legal marriage.
Mary conceived Jesus without sperm joining her egg/"seed".
Jewish tradition and Law: "Be fruitful and multiply".
There were many half brothers and sisters of the "one flesh" union of Mary and Joseph.
John the Elder was the only disciple/apostle/half brother-sister who showed up at the Cross.

How does the RCC false doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary glorify the TRI-UNE GOD?

The answer comes from the Bible as recorded below:

54. "And after coming into His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, so that they were amazed and said, "From where did this Man receive this wisdom and these works of power? 55. Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers James and Joses and Simon and Judas? 56. And His sisters, are they not all with us? . . . " (Matthew 13:54 - 56).

Quasar92

KWCrazy · Sep 19, 2017

Quasar92 said:
The answer comes from the Bible as recorded below:
54. "And after coming into His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, so that they were amazed and said, "From where did this Man receive this wisdom and these works of power? 55. Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers James and Joses and Simon and Judas? 56. And His sisters, are they not all with us? . . . " (Matthew 13:54 - 56).
Quasar92

Exactly.
Mary was expected to do her duty as a woman; to be a wife to her husband, a mother to his children and to carry on his bloodline. She and Joseph were married and had a relatively normal life after the birth of Jesus. Virtually nothing of Jesus' early life is recorded because He was a normal child raised in a pious family who taught their children to revere the Scriptures. Jesus did not gain His authority until He was baptised by John the Baptist. Mary was elevated to a near deity by the Catholic church who also invented the idea of praying to intercessors. Jesus taught us to pray to the Father directly; no intercessors needed. Praying to Mary does nothing. She was a devout woman blessed by God to birth the Lord, but she was never more that. Job was a devout man who talked with God and was much blessed. We don't pray to him either. Moses was God's mouthpiece to man and wrote most of the pentateuch; the first five books of the Bible. We don't pray to Moses. We pray in this manner; Our Father who art in Heaven. Father, not Mom.

Ron Gurley · Sep 19, 2017

To clarify my Post#23, John the Elder was one of the final 11 apostles/disciples chosen by Jesus to be messengers to spread His "gospel" to all Nations. He was not related by blood to the union of Joseph and Mary.

John 21: 20, 24 (NASB)
20 Peter, turning around, saw "the disciple whom Jesus loved" (John the Elder) following them;
the one who also had leaned back on His bosom at the supper and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?”...
24 This is the disciple who is testifying to these things and wrote these things, and we know that his testimony is true.

John 19:26-27...Jesus on the Cross
26 When Jesus then saw His mother, and "the disciple whom He loved" (John the Elder) standing nearby,
He said to His mother, “Woman, behold, your son!”
27 Then He said to the (this) disciple, “Behold, your mother!”
From that hour the disciple took her into his own household. (BECAUSE JESUS COMMANDED HIM TO!)

Acts 1:14...After Pentecost
These (new believers) all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer,
along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His (Jesus') brothers.

Matthew 10:2
Now the names of the (first) twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother;
and James the son of Zebedee, and John (the Elder) his brother;...

Revelation 1:1 (NASB)...The Revelation of Jesus Christ to John the Elder on the Isle of Patmos
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place;
and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,(the Elder)

Traveling teacher · Sep 19, 2017

I believe the reason the RCC wants to make Mary a perpetual virgin is because
of somehow they can pray to her as an interecesor.....or an exalted saint
there is only one intercesor between God and man
1 Timothy 2:5
the man Jesus Christ

Root of Jesse · Sep 19, 2017

Traveling teacher said:
I believe the reason the RCC wants to make Mary a perpetual virgin is because
of somehow they can pray to her as an interecesor.....or an exalted saint
there is only one intercesor between God and man
1 Timothy 2:5
the man Jesus Christ

She is a mediator, regardless of her perpetual virginity, just as you or I am. That she is a mediator doesn't negate that Jesus is the one intercessor. If your young son wants to help you mow the lawn, but doesn't have the strength to push the mower, do you just deny him the opportunity to be with you? I don't think so. Even if he just gets in the way, you let him.

Ron Gurley · Sep 19, 2017

Response to Post #55

Your logic is flawed and your OPINIONS are UN-Scriptural.

MEDIATOR:

1 Timothy 2:5 (ALL NASB)
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 8:6
But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry,
by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason He (Jesus) is the mediator of a NEW covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions
that were committed under the first covenant,
those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 12:24
and to Jesus, the mediator of a NEW covenant,
and to the (His) sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

INTERCEDE-OR/ intercession / INTERCESSOR:

Hebrews 7:25
Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God THROUGH Him,
since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Romans 8:34
...Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

Romans 8:27
and He (JESUS) who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is,
because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Root of Jesse · Sep 19, 2017

Ron Gurley said:
Response to Post #55

Your logic is flawed and your OPINIONS are UN-Scriptural.

MEDIATOR:

1 Timothy 2:5 (ALL NASB)
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 8:6
But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry,
by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason He (Jesus) is the mediator of a NEW covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions
that were committed under the first covenant,
those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 12:24
and to Jesus, the mediator of a NEW covenant,
and to the (His) sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

INTERCEDE-OR/ intercession / INTERCESSOR:

Hebrews 7:25
Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God THROUGH Him,
since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Romans 8:34
...Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

Romans 8:27
and He (JESUS) who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is,
because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

I don't believe that Scripture is the only way God speaks, therefore, we're not bound to Scripture alone. And again, that Mary and the Saints are mediators diminishes Christ's mediatorship not in one whit.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 19, 2017

Root of Jesse said:
Especially when there's nothing to disagree with. I'm a convert, and wouldn't have come to the Church if I didn't see the truth in the Church.

Well good for you.

Ron Gurley · Sep 19, 2017

Hebrews 4:12
For the "word of God" is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, ("body"?) and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Matthew 24:35...Jesus:
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Matthew 4:4
... “It is written, ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.’”

Mark 7:13
...thus invalidating the "word of God" by your "tradition" which you have handed down

Which is SUPREME in the event of irreconcilable conflict among??:
1. Canonized Scripture of the miraculous Bible
2. Papal Magisterium of the RCC
3. Sacred Tradition of the RCC
4. The Apochrypha's 14 Books
5. Writings of the early "CHURCH" commentators
6. other revealed non-Canonized writings

prodromos · Sep 19, 2017

Ron Gurley said:
Let's get FACTUAL and BIBLICAL.

That would be nice

Mary was a virgin (a fertile teenager?)

"Virgin" is biblical, "fertile teenager" is not.

She was legally betrothed to Joseph ( a devout bachelor and older carpenter with no evidence of prior children)

"Legally betrothed to Joseph" is biblical, "carpenter" is biblical, but "devout bachelor" is not and I contend that the Bible provides good support for Joseph already having grown children. If they were younger children growing up in Jesus' shadow, they would have believed in him. They also do not treat Jesus as the eldest but more like a celebrity little brother. Tradition also tells us that Salome, the mother of James and John was one of Joseph's daughters. This fits perfectly with the request she made of her little brother, that her sons sit at his right and left hand in His kingdom. Only a big sister could be so bold.

Did Jesus have any brothers and sisters?

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