Which Came First: New Testament or the Church? – Fr. James Bernstein, WA, USA

Abel Gkiouzelis · Sep 12, 2017

Which Came First: New Testament or the Church?

by Fr. James Bernstein, WA, USA

A convert to Christianity from Judaism, Fr. James was a teenage chess champion whose dramatic conversion experience at the age of 16 led him to Christianity, and is also one of the founders of Jews For Jesus. His journey led him directly to the Orthodox Christian faith, and his journey is recounted in his book “Surprised By Christ,” the story of a man searching for the truth and unable to rest until he finds it. He is the priest at St. Paul Church in Brier, WA.

╰⊰¸¸.•¨*

As a Jewish convert to Christ via evangelical Protestantism, I naturally wanted to know God better through the reading of the Scriptures. In fact, it had been through reading the Gospels in the “forbidden book” called the New Testament, at age sixteen, that I had come to believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and our promised Messiah. In my early years as a Christian, much of... Read more

Presbyterian Continuist · Sep 12, 2017

Abel Gkiouzelis said:
Which Came First: New Testament or the Church?

by Fr. James Bernstein, WA, USA

A convert to Christianity from Judaism, Fr. James was a teenage chess champion whose dramatic conversion experience at the age of 16 led him to Christianity, and is also one of the founders of Jews For Jesus. His journey led him directly to the Orthodox Christian faith, and his journey is recounted in his book “Surprised By Christ,” the story of a man searching for the truth and unable to rest until he finds it. He is the priest at St. Paul Church in Brier, WA.

╰⊰¸¸.•¨*

As a Jewish convert to Christ via evangelical Protestantism, I naturally wanted to know God better through the reading of the Scriptures. In fact, it had been through reading the Gospels in the “forbidden book” called the New Testament, at age sixteen, that I had come to believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and our promised Messiah. In my early years as a Christian, much of... Read more

The Church. It started on the Day of Pentecost.

dysert · Sep 12, 2017

Well that was an easy one.
[/thread]

ArmyMatt · Sep 12, 2017

he wrote a great book on his conversion, where he makes it pretty durn clear the Scriptures arose after and from the Church.

Abel Gkiouzelis · Sep 12, 2017

ArmyMatt said:
he wrote a great book on his conversion, where he makes it pretty durn clear the Scriptures arose after and from the Church.

The “Surprised By Christ”, right?

Ken Rank · Sep 12, 2017

Actually, if we are going to translate ekklesia as church (which is valid) then the church was at Sinai according to the Septuagint and Acts 7:38. Either way (going back to Sinai or just Pentecost post ascension), the NT as a collection of books was not compiled and canonized until nearly 200AD.

ArmyMatt · Sep 12, 2017

Abel Gkiouzelis said:
The “Surprised By Christ”, right?

yep

ArmyMatt · Sep 12, 2017

Ken Rank said:
Actually, if we are going to translate ekklesia as church (which is valid) then the church was at Sinai according to the Septuagint and Acts 7:38. Either way (going back to Sinai or just Pentecost post ascension), the NT as a collection of books was not compiled and canonized until nearly 200AD.

you could go back further, since the angels who never fell away from God, were always gathered in their worship of God. and some saints also point out that in a sense, there is an eternal aspect to the Church as well, since the eternal Son of God is also the Great High Priest.

Soyeong · Sep 14, 2017

Abel Gkiouzelis said:
Which Came First: New Testament or the Church?

by Fr. James Bernstein, WA, USA

A convert to Christianity from Judaism, Fr. James was a teenage chess champion whose dramatic conversion experience at the age of 16 led him to Christianity, and is also one of the founders of Jews For Jesus. His journey led him directly to the Orthodox Christian faith, and his journey is recounted in his book “Surprised By Christ,” the story of a man searching for the truth and unable to rest until he finds it. He is the priest at St. Paul Church in Brier, WA.

╰⊰¸¸.•¨*

As a Jewish convert to Christ via evangelical Protestantism, I naturally wanted to know God better through the reading of the Scriptures. In fact, it had been through reading the Gospels in the “forbidden book” called the New Testament, at age sixteen, that I had come to believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and our promised Messiah. In my early years as a Christian, much of... Read more

The Greek word "ekklesia" is translated as "assembly" or "church" and it is used many times in the Septuagint to refer to the assembly of Israel in the wilderness, so the Church as the assembly of God's chosen people began long before the New Testament.

Abel Gkiouzelis · Sep 15, 2017

Soyeong said:
The Greek word "ekklesia" is translated as "assembly" or "church" and it is used many times in the Septuagint to refer to the assembly of Israel in the wilderness, so the Church as the assembly of God's chosen people began long before the New Testament.

Hello!

The meaning of this article is the Church of Christ.

Jesus Christ founded His Church and said:

“I will build my Church, and the gates of hades will not prevail against it”(Matthew 16:18).

Soyeong · Sep 15, 2017

Abel Gkiouzelis said:
Hello!

The meaning of this article is the Church of Christ.

Jesus Christ founded His Church and said:

“I will build my Church, and the gates of hades will not prevail against it”(Matthew 16:18).

Hello,

The Greek word "oikodomeo" is used for "build", but it can refer both to building a house from the ground up or to restoring or repairing something that already exists, such as in Act 9:31, 1 Corinthians 8:1, 1 Corinthians 10:23, and Galatians 2:17-18. So I believe that this is the correct way to translated Matthew 16:18:

“I will rebuild my Church, and the gates of hades will not prevail against it”.

When translators of the Bible inconsistently translate "ekklesia" as "church" when it refers to a group of believers and as "assembly" everywhere else, they create the false impression that it is talking about something brand new rather than something rebuilt according to prophecy (Amos 9:11-12, Acts 15:16-17). As I pointed out "ekklesia" is used many times in the Septuagint to refer to the assembly of Israel in the wilderness, so that is when the Church Age began and the Church has always been the gathering of God's chosen people.

Abel Gkiouzelis · Sep 16, 2017

Soyeong said:
Hello,

The Greek word "oikodomeo" is used for "build", but it can refer both to building a house from the ground up or to restoring or repairing something that already exists, such as in Act 9:31, 1 Corinthians 8:1, 1 Corinthians 10:23, and Galatians 2:17-18. So I believe that this is the correct way to translated Matthew 16:18:

“I will rebuild my Church, and the gates of hades will not prevail against it”.

When translators of the Bible inconsistently translate "ekklesia" as "church" when it refers to a group of believers and as "assembly" everywhere else, they create the false impression that it is talking about something brand new rather than something rebuilt according to prophecy (Amos 9:11-12, Acts 15:16-17). As I pointed out "ekklesia" is used many times in the Septuagint to refer to the assembly of Israel in the wilderness, so that is when the Church Age began and the Church has always been the gathering of God's chosen people.

Hi!

In Matthew 16:18 the word "build" means "found".

Christ founded His Church. The Church of Christ started on the Day of Pentecost (Acts of the Apostles 2:1 - 41).

“I will build my Church, and the gates of hades will not prevail against it”(Matthew 16:18).

Also:

"Beloved, while I was giving all diligence to write unto you of our common salvation, I was constrained to write unto you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered unto the saints" (Jude 1:3).

"teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world"(Matthew 28:20)
>>> Said "always", not "rebuild".
>>> Said "once for all delivered", not "rebuild".

Soyeong · Sep 16, 2017

Abel Gkiouzelis said:
Hi!

In Matthew 16:18 the word "build" means "found".

Christ founded His Church. The Church of Christ started on the Day of Pentecost (Acts of the Apostles 2:1 - 41).

“I will build my Church, and the gates of hades will not prevail against it”(Matthew 16:18).

Also:

"Beloved, while I was giving all diligence to write unto you of our common salvation, I was constrained to write unto you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered unto the saints" (Jude 1:3).

"teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world"(Matthew 28:20)
>>> Said "always", not "rebuild".
>>> Said "once for all delivered", not "rebuild".

Hello,

I agree that the word can mean "found", but I also cited a number of examples where it is also used to refer to restoring or rebuilding something that already exists. I also pointed out that the the Septuagint refers to the ekklesia of Israel many times. Furthermore, the Apostles in Acts 15:16-17 saw the inclusion of Gentiles as being the fulfillment of the prophecy in Amos 9:11-12 to restore David's fallen tents.

Neither Jude 1:3 or Matthew 28:20 use the same word used in Matthew 16:18, so I'm not sure why you brought them up, and even if they were using the same word, it does not mean that the word should be translated in the same way every time it is used without regard to the context.

Which Came First: New Testament or the Church? – Fr. James Bernstein, WA, USA

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