John 22-71 a case for Calvinism?

bling · Sep 16, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
So, "chance" is sovereign.

God is totally sovereign, but would that keep God from allowing mature adults to have an extremely limited amount of autonomous free will so some humans could be gift by God to the point of becoming like God Himself in that they had Godly type Love?
If there is "no chance" a human will not accept God's Love and become Loving like God than what is the value of that human's love for God if it is the result of God's programming it to happen without any input from the person loving God?
Is that the kind of "love" Christ has for God and you (just a knee jerk reaction)?

Monk Brendan · Sep 16, 2017

Si_monfaith said:
Is man's will free? Doesn't it need knowledge and assurance (faith) given by God to make a choice? Can man produce the required knowledge and assurance?

Open your mind and try to clear away (for just a moment) the Calvinist ties binding you to him.

You have already agreed with me that God has free will. If He has free will, and we are made in His likeness and image, then WE have free will too, right?

I'm NOT saying that we don't need faith. But do we need knowledge? I'm sure you've heard the stories about people that don't know Jesus at all calling upon the Name of Jesus and being helped? Not all of them are apocryphal. So what happens when someone calls to Jesus for help? Is He not swift to answer? One story I know to be true is a slave just off the boat in America picked up a Bible, and, while he couldn't read, he could look at the pictures.

Well, He did, and he came to a saving knowledge of Jesus without any knowledge whatsoever! And he told his fellows about this, and they were saved too.

So much for "faith comes by hearing."

Monk Brendan · Sep 16, 2017

Si_monfaith said:
Why do some choose to follow while others do not?

Some people like themselves (and their fleshly desires) more than they want something other than that. So they wallow in their flesh pits, with sex, booze, drugs, and so on, thinking there will be no tomorrow. When confronted with Jesus, they choose the sex, booze, etc.

jimmyjimmy · Sep 16, 2017

white gardenia said:
Yes thats a good example of what I mean... God wants everyone to obey the Ten Commandments and yet for some reason what God wills does NOT happen. Almost as if an overriding set of rules has prevented Him from creating the universe that he actually wants...

Not so fast. He also has a will which is absolute.

white gardenia · Sep 16, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
Not so fast. He also has a will which is absolute.

hmmm possibly....So He has two wills... and one will seems to override the other? My only problem with that is that the will which "comes out on top" is imperfect...even in God's own sight. Would God be content knowing that universe does not match what He really wants? The ultimate state of the universe has to align with God's perfect will...ie "all shall come to repentance" and "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord"

Si_monfaith · Sep 16, 2017

Monk Brendan said:
Open your mind and try to clear away (for just a moment) the Calvinist ties binding you to him.

You have already agreed with me that God has free will. If He has free will, and we are made in His likeness and image, then WE have free will too, right?

I'm NOT saying that we don't need faith. But do we need knowledge? I'm sure you've heard the stories about people that don't know Jesus at all calling upon the Name of Jesus and being helped? Not all of them are apocryphal. So what happens when someone calls to Jesus for help? Is He not swift to answer? One story I know to be true is a slave just off the boat in America picked up a Bible, and, while he couldn't read, he could look at the pictures.

Well, He did, and he came to a saving knowledge of Jesus without any knowledge whatsoever! And he told his fellows about this, and they were saved too.

So much for "faith comes by hearing."

Monk Brendan said:
I'm NOT saying that we don't need faith. But do we need knowledge?

John 6: 45: "Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me".

Before a person comes to Jesus, the Father gives him knowledge. Without that knowledge no one can even come to Jesus let alone have faith and exercise the faith by believing and confessing.

Monk Brendan said:
If He has free will, and we are made in His likeness and image, then WE have free will too, right?

A person's will is free only if the knowledge needed to make a choice is intrinsic to that person.

Does being made in His likeness and image involve possessing the volume of knowledge that God has?

Si_monfaith · Sep 16, 2017

Monk Brendan said:
Some people like themselves (and their fleshly desires) more than they want something other than that. So they wallow in their flesh pits, with sex, booze, drugs, and so on, thinking there will be no tomorrow. When confronted with Jesus, they choose the sex, booze, etc.

John 8: 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Many choose to reject Jesus because they are not of God. They are not elected.

bling · Sep 17, 2017

white gardenia said:
hmmm possibly....So He has two wills... and one will seems to override the other? My only problem with that is that the will which "comes out on top" is imperfect...even in God's own sight. Would God be content knowing that universe does not match what He really wants? The ultimate state of the universe has to align with God's perfect will...ie "all shall come to repentance" and "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord"

It is God’s will to allow mature adult humans to become like He is: in that they have Godly type love, but to allow them to possibly obtain this Love it must be the result of a truly free will choice on their part with likely alternatives. God cannot program them with this love (that would be a robotic type love) nor can God force this Love on them. The easiest choice decision they could make would be to accept or reject God’s charity for whatever reason.

God desire is for everyone to humbly accept His pure charity and become like He is, but God cannot override a person’s free will and make the choice for them, since the love they would obtain would not be Godly type Love, but a forced or robotic type love.

Monk Brendan · Sep 17, 2017

Si_monfaith said:
Before a person comes to Jesus, the Father gives him knowledge. Without that knowledge no one can even come to Jesus let alone have faith and exercise the faith by believing and confessing.

Faith comes by HEARING--not knowledge.

Si_monfaith · Sep 18, 2017

bling said:
It is God’s will to allow mature adult humans to become like He is: in that they have Godly type love, but to allow them to possibly obtain this Love it must be the result of a truly free will choice on their part with likely alternatives. God cannot program them with this love (that would be a robotic type love) nor can God force this Love on them. The easiest choice decision they could make would be to accept or reject God’s charity for whatever reason.

God desire is for everyone to humbly accept His pure charity and become like He is, but God cannot override a person’s free will and make the choice for them, since the love they would obtain would not be Godly type Love, but a forced or robotic type love.

"but Godcannot override a person’s free will".

God cannot override a person’s free will? If so what happened to Paul on the road to Damascus?

Si_monfaith · Sep 18, 2017

Monk Brendan said:
Faith comes by HEARING--not knowledge.

If so why doesn't faith come to all?

John 10: 26: "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you."

To believe one must be elected by God's will. Those elect are the sheep.

Some in this thread and similar threads think the other way round that is, they think they can become the elect by their "effort" of believing.

Monk Brendan · Sep 18, 2017

Si_monfaith said:
To believe one must be elected by God's will. Those elect are the sheep.

Some in this thread and similar threads think the other way round that is, they think they can become the elect by their "effort" of believing.

And somehow, you don't believe that "believing" is effort? Sometimes, just believing that God is in control is the only thing you can do, and in those cases, it is real work.

Alright, if your view is right, why do you evangelize? Why waste the time, money, and effort to pass out tracts, or talk to anyone about Jesus?

Jesus commanded us:
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

All of these are works! And they do help us get to heaven.

If Jesus knew it was a waste of time, why would He command it? And don't hand me that load of cow patties that this was God's command, and you don't understand it, but you do it anyway. That won't wash! Give me a Scriptural answer WHY we are commanded to evangelize?

I'll tell you. Look at Acts and the writings of Paul. What were they doing all the time? The were out spreading the Word, not asking for God to bless them with a new Mercedes. And when he wasn't evangelizing, he was busy making tents.

Si_monfaith · Sep 18, 2017

Monk Brendan said:
And somehow, you don't believe that "believing" is effort? Sometimes, just believing that God is in control is the only thing you can do, and in those cases, it is real work.

Alright, if your view is right, why do you evangelize? Why waste the time, money, and effort to pass out tracts, or talk to anyone about Jesus?

Jesus commanded us:
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

All of these are works! And they do help us get to heaven.

If Jesus knew it was a waste of time, why would He command it? And don't hand me that load of cow patties that this was God's command, and you don't understand it, but you do it anyway. That won't wash! Give me a Scriptural answer WHY we are commanded to evangelize?

I'll tell you. Look at Acts and the writings of Paul. What were they doing all the time? The were out spreading the Word, not asking for God to bless them with a new Mercedes. And when he wasn't evangelizing, he was busy making tents.

John 6:45: Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Father has already given knowledge of His Son to the elect. Only such people can come to Jesus. Example: Centurion in Mathew chapter 8.

Preaching the gospel justifies none. God has already justified the elect through the blood of His Son. Preaching only communicates the good news.

When the elect hear the good news, God gives them the assurance (faith - Romans 10:17). Then they come to Jesus and start meditating (believing), confessing and proclaiming Jesus in turn (Acts 9:20: And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God).

Si_monfaith · Sep 26, 2017

God can never be seen as the author of sin or evil regardless of the truth that all human choices originate in Him. Why?

If man hadn't chosen the knowledge of good and evil in the garden of eden, man could not know that whatever God did was evil or sin.

It was not God's will for man to possess the knowledge of good and evil. Only God can help you to not think in terms of the knowledge of good & evil.

John 22-71 a case for Calvinism?

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