Presbyterian Minister Cancelled Wedding After Bride Declared Support for Same-Sex Marriage

Whose reasons do you think are more valid to support their decision? Please explain with a post.

  • The Presbyterian Church Minister

  • The Couple


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Paidiske

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It's actually interesting why Christians don't enforce the whole list in Acts 15:29. Or are there Christians who will only buy kosher meat?

Possibly. In my own case, I'll buy meat from a regular butcher, but I wouldn't eat something like blood pudding. I probably wouldn't want to, anyway (I'm pretty boring and conservative in my eating habits), but I would feel uncomfortable about eating a blood product given that apparently the NT church still saw that as an issue.

I do think the Acts list is interesting. No idolatry is pretty obvious; no sexual immorality unsurprising given the context. But why no blood or strangled animals but no other food or purity provisions? It might be that this was aimed at the bare minimum necessary for table fellowship to be acceptable to all, and that was thought to be important enough to enforce rules around it. But it is interesting.

(Oh, and in my experience Jews are only willing to eat with gentiles if we eat food they provide and prepare; but not to eat food we provide and prepare!)
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Your post doesn't make sense to me

Specifically the paragraph I bolded


How can you say that you wouldn't officiate if it were you but then fault this priest
It's not that he refused to conduct a same-sex marriage. It was a standard marriage he was refusing because the bride made the declaration. I did concede in another post that the minister (no priests in the Presbyterian church) obeyed his personal conscience, and would have had the support of the ruling elders of his church. To explain: A Presbyterian minister is not the head rooster in his church. He is employed by a "session" of ruling elders, and he has just one vote when decisions are made. Of course, there are "control freaks" in every church and my church has had a couple of them.

If the ruling elders of his church didn't agree with him, they would censure him in their next elders' meeting and instruct him that in similar circumstances he arrange for a replacement celebrant rather than cancel a couple's wedding. If the minister refuses to comply with a majority vote of the elders, they have the power to fire him.

Also, if a church member doesn't agree with a minister's decision or has concerns about his conduct, a complaint can be made to the eldership who are required to investigate and decide what action to take, if any.
 
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hedrick

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I didn't appreciate that there were Protestant churches that expected this level of detailed doctrinal conformity. The churches I've spent the most time with -- Southern Baptist, Quaker, and Episcopal -- all allow a diversity of belief, within some pretty broad guidelines.

Yes, if you're in that kind of church -- if the pastor expects both bride and groom to be conservative Presbyterians who have affirmed a lengthy confessional statement -- then I can see the pastor rejecting them for expressing dissenting opinions. That's not what I, personally, would want in a pastor or a church, but it makes sense in the context of that kind of church.

Are members who grew up in a conservative Presbyterian church from infancy also expected to affirm the confessional statement? It couldn't be at the time of infant baptism; is there a particular age at which they have to affirm the statement in order to continue in membership?

I'm in the mainline version of Presbyterianism. But from the discussions I've had with members of churches like the PCA, I believe people are reviewed when they formally join the Church, i.e. become voting members. Think confirmation, though that isn't the traditional Presbyterian term. I'm fairly sure the PCA expects people to affirm the Westminster Confession, and to tell the Session any issues they have with it. The Session then judges whether the issue is serious enough to deny membership.

The PCUSA, which is the mainline version of Presbyterianism, asks officers to say they will be guided by the confessions, but not that they agree with every provision. Furthermore, we have a book of confessions, with a range of documents, including the 20th Cent statements that reflect recent theology. When a member joins (or for people growing up in the Church, are confirmed) they are asked only if they accept Christ as Lord and Savior. I think that's more typical Protestant practice.

Remember that Presbyterians are "confessional," meaning that confessions play a central role in how we do theology. So are Lutherans. I don't know Lutheran practice, but I'd guess the conservative Lutheran churches also expect members to agree substantially with the Lutheran confessions.

The PCUSA understands confessional differently. We consider our theology a living tradition, and see confessions as having the dual role of telling the world what we believe and providing guidance for members. Since ours is a living tradition, we expect to continue issuing confessions. Because we have a range of both historical and modern confessions, it would be challenging for someone to affirm all of them in detail. My personal theology follows the modern confessions pretty closely. As for historical influences I follow Calvin's theology more closely than the historical confessions. A lot of us would like to see his French Confession added to the book of confessions.

Because of the natural of confessional Presbyterianism, I think the pastor was well within his rights not to marry people who are at variance with the traditional confessions. My main criticism is that he should have realized this sooner.

My question is broader: whether that kind of doctrinal conformity is appropriate for Christianity. But I have to say that historically it often has been practiced. From fairly early Christianity defined itself by affirming orthodox theology, which was defined by fairly strict standards in key areas such as the Trinity and Incarnation.
 
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RaymondG

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God says forgive IF they repent. Did the bride submit to church leadership and renounce her support of same sex relationships?
I'm not aware of the "ifs" you speak of. Does your bible also say to love your enemies, "IF" they repent first as well? If so, I need to know the version....yours seem to have an easier way to heaven.

I'm not sure about your question, but it seems to me that she wasn't given an opportunity to repent.....the post was discovered, meetings were had, and the cancellations were sent in a letter.
 
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samir

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I'm not aware of the "ifs" you speak of. Does your bible also say to love your enemies, "IF" they repent first as well? If so, I need to know the version....yours seem to have an easier way to heaven.

Luke 17:3 "If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”

That's NKJV. Every version I checked says the same thing. What version do you use?
 
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redleghunter

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However conservative Presbyterian churches, at least in the US, expect all members to accept a fairly detailed confessional statement, stating any exceptions so the Session can judge whether they're OK. I don't believe other conservative churches are quite like that.
Many of the smaller Evangelical churches are following the lead of the larger orthodox Presbyterian churches.

They have to in order to avoid the issues like the one in this OP.
 
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redleghunter

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The fact that these ancient attitudes have been largely put aside is proof to me that the Holy Spirit continues to work in the world.

So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it. (Isaiah 55:11).

What some today consider ancient is just truth that never changes.
 
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redleghunter

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No doubt Paul was unaware of the distinction between sexual orientation, over which one has apparently very little choice, and sexual behavior, over which one does.
Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ. Did he miss the boat on a very important moral teaching?
 
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redleghunter

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What does "support same sex marriage" mean in this context? Does it mean that one is willing to share a meal in the home of a gay couple? Does it mean one is willing to avoid trying to hit on one of such a couple, out of respect for their commitment to each other? Does it mean one is willing to share advice on how they can maintain their lawn better? Does it mean one is willing to share advice on how to get good marital counseling?
None of the above. It means what it plainly says...the couple supported same sex marriage. Their church did not.
 
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redleghunter

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And if I may say so, thank goodness these ancient shortsighted, prejudicial, and misguided attitudes have ultimately changed. I'm thankful homosexuals and other LGBT people are treated so much better than they once were, especially in the Christian church. I say bless these poor souls who have had to fight so hard for better treatment and for equal rights and equality. I admire their courage.
Do you believe any morals are absolute?
 
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redleghunter

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The historical CHRISTIAN approach is that it is a union before the eyes of GOD between a man and a woman
Indeed.

Jesus made such clear in Matthew 19 when he quoted Genesis 2. The one man one woman union is God's design.
 
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redleghunter

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Only Christ would think to even talk to them. The ones we look down on and excommunicate ;-)

Your learning stops, when you have realized you know everything already.
Jesus healed the sick and forgave repentant sinners. He called people to stop doing what they loved and follow Him.
 
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redleghunter

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Why would God accept you, if you willingly reject the least of His?
Who exactly are the "least of His?"

What you are quoting from is Matthew 25. It seems everyone loves to pack in anyone into "the least of these."

However what actions are we to do for the least? Feed, clothe, visit when sick and in prison. Doesn't say marry people.

You feel that you are God's Child but they are not?

Not all are God's children. You are honestly asking this question?

There's a very narrow scope in the NT:


Galatians 3:26 - For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

1 John 2:28 - 3:10 - And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Romans 8:17-19 - And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

1 Peter 2:10 - Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Romans 8:14-19 - For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Romans 8:28 - And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

You feel better than them because they don't have the same beliefs as you? Do you pray that you are glad you are not like the sinners over there?

Now that was quite defensively judgmental.

Do you believe there are moral absolutes?
 
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redleghunter

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If they knew Him, they would not have Crucified our Lord. They were blinded by their interpretations of scripture, just like many of us are. Think about it....If Jesus came to your house today looking opposite of what you think he should; preaching an interpretation different from what you preach vehemently on this forum, wouldn't you do the same as them? wouldnt you trade post for post to try to catch him in lies? call him a blasphemer? Tell him he was supposed to come in the sky on a horse, not in rags at my front door? Have we done this already?
This is a logical fallacy.

You have set up a nice straw man to boot.

How did Jesus test error?

Those in the seat of Moses condemned Jesus because He rebuked them for loving their man made religious traditions over the Law. He also condemned them for not justly following the Law and meting out justice according to the Law.
 
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redleghunter

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For me, I was shown that "Judge with righteous Judgement" meant for be to see the good in what my old self would consider bad. I use to believe that it meant for me to consider myself righteous and therefore able to judge between good and bad of those I felt unrighteous....or at least less righteous than I believed myself to be. no more.
There's an easy fix for this conflict. Read and teach the righteousness of Christ. Leave yourself out of the equation.

Christ is absolute Truth.

Not to be confused with the moral relative "love" man created and tries to apply to Christ.
 
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redleghunter

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What if they disagreed about the right to remarry in the case of abandonment or adultery? Would the pastor have canceled the wedding? Would he have been spiritually correct to cancel the wedding?
But they apparently did not and what you write above was not the subject of contention.
 
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redleghunter

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I don't think that anyone here has suggested that the preacher's heart was full of hate or that he was unloving. For myself, I believe that the conscience that he is following may not yet be fully formed.
The pastor in this case was following well known Biblical Christian truth. It can be found in Matthew 19:1-12.

Jesus laid out what marriage IS in big bold red letters.
 
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redleghunter

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Interesting perspective. However, given the rate of divorce and remarriage among heterosexual couples, including among Christians, I will have to respectfully disagree with that assessment.

Which is a fallacious distraction. The OP is about same sex marriage. What you quote is also wrong and sin.

If we have to weigh which sin is "more better" or less destructive, then we have arrived at a very disturbing train station.
 
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