Need help, seriously questioning.

_-iconoclast-_ · Sep 13, 2017

tampasteve said:
So, while I am not convinced it is about Jesus, I could be convinced of a dual prophesy with Jesus being one of them....but standing alone I cannot come to that conclusion.

Thank you for the reply.

Why do you think these passages cant be about Jesus? Who are these passages about?

tampasteve said:
many/most Jewish people would not come to the conclusion that they are messianic prophesies, and that is one of my struggles.

You must have considered that the early church were jews. So there are/have been jews who do accept these as messianic prophecies. As for tovia, why would you consider him an authority?

Please excuse me if this is a personal question. Have you had an experience with Jesus.

Cheers hey

visionary · Sep 13, 2017

If it wasn't for the believing Jews, there would be no gospel getting out of Jerusalem.. It would have died at the cross.

Norbert L · Sep 13, 2017

tampasteve said:
At the moment I lean towards Judaism.

If I'm correctly reading between the lines, are you implying that monotheism better describes what is going on in the OT rather than the divine plurality you find in the NT? Because that is not the case.

Serving Zion · Sep 14, 2017

tampasteve said:
Thank you, I think I can agree with this statement. The sin atonement replacement theology is definitely something that I question. But if we remove this from the Christian salvation theology what are we left with? It would seem that we are left with more of a Prophet trying to renew the Mosaic Covenant...

Oh, no it isn't as though we can remove the doctrine as you are suggesting, instead it is important to understand it properly. Yahweh did not demand Jesus' blood on our behalf, but He judges and executes justice by commanding the heavenly host. The devil is the accuser, we wrestle not against flesh and blood, and if we sin we have an advocate in heaven to plead our case before The Father (Ephesians 3:14-15).

Unless we are pure of heart and of good conscience, we cannot stand justified in His presence. That is the necessity of atoning sacrifice. If we will not turn from our wicked ways, we will receive judgement. When the wages for our sin catches up with us, we receive that judgement. Either we repent and enter covenant, requiring atonement, or we cripple our faith by choosing to persist in sin (consider 1 John 1:6). The atonement happens here and now, when we enter covenant with Him (through baptism); but: antichrists have taught that atonement doesn't happen until we die, so they justify their continuation of sin. They do not uphold Hebrews 10:26.

Many have been baptised under perverted doctrines and their faith is severely compromised because of it.

danny ski · Sep 14, 2017

Interesting thread. Ask yourself, how much time is spent among us Jews contemplating Jesus? None. Or pretty much none. The reason Rabbi Singer and others have this particular gig is protection of our religion. Their focus is on Judaism and on our people. If it were not for the various Christian organizations targeting specifically Jewish community, the anti missionary movement would not exist. Their argumentations, from the Christian POV, are debatable. From a Jewish POV, they are a basic truism. And while Rabbi Singer and others do, frequently, go outside the Jewish community to debate, their efforts are 100% for the Jewish consumption and should be viewed in that light only. Therefore, it is of little surprise that their views, in a Christian setting such as this, would cause a controversy. We are different religions, after all.

Serving Zion · Sep 14, 2017

danny ski said:
Interesting thread. Ask yourself, how much time is spent among us Jews contemplating Jesus? None. Or pretty much none. The reason Rabbi Singer and others have this particular gig is protection of our religion. Their focus is on Judaism and on our people. If it were not for the various Christian organizations targeting specifically Jewish community, the anti missionary movement would not exist. Their argumentations, from the Christian POV, are debatable. From a Jewish POV, they are a basic truism. And while Rabbi Singer and others do, frequently, go outside the Jewish community to debate, their efforts are 100% for the Jewish consumption and should be viewed in that light only. Therefore, it is of little surprise that their views, in a Christian setting such as this, would cause a controversy.

Hi danny ski, I am very much looking forward to the appropriate opportunity to discuss matters with you

Meanwhile, I just wish to submit here that Christianity and Judaism ought not be seen in opposition. Christianity's authentic practise (when all of the unscriptural Gentile corruptions are disassociated from it: John 14:21, Matthew 7:21-23, Romans 3:2), is the exercise of Judaism with Jesus as High Priest, whose office now persists forever in the heavens (Acts 2:32-36, Hebrews 7:23-24, Revelation 3:20).

Christianity did not begin as an opposition to Judaism, but as a dispute over how Judaism should be rightly practised (Eg: Mark 3:1-6, Mark 7:1-13, Mark 11:17). That dispute culminated in Matthew 27:20-26, hence Luke 13:34-35 and Romans 11:19.

danny ski · Sep 14, 2017

Serving Zion said:
Hi danny ski, I am very much looking forward to the appropriate opportunity to discuss matters with you

Meanwhile, I just wish to submit here that Christianity and Judaism ought not be seen in opposition. Christianity's authentic practise (when all of the unscriptural Gentile corruptions are disassociated from it: John 14:21, Matthew 7:21-23, Romans 3:2), is the exercise of Judaism with Jesus as High Priest, whose office now persists forever in the heavens (Acts 2:32-36, Hebrews 7:23-24, Revelation 3:20).

Christianity did not begin as an opposition to Judaism, but as a dispute over how Judaism should be rightly practised (Eg: Mark 3:1-6, Mark 7:1-13, Mark 11:17). That dispute culminated in Matthew 27:20-26, hence Luke 13:34-35 and Romans 11:19.

That may be so, the dispute part. But, we don't have sources to confirm nor deny its significance. Certainly it did not leave much of an impression on Judaism. As for the opposition, it will always be so. Hopefully, without hate or malice, so it is encouraging that, at least the Vatican, backed off from converting Jews- a step in a right direction.

tampasteve · Sep 14, 2017

_-iconoclast-_ said:
Thank you for the reply.

Why do you think these passages cant be about Jesus? Who are these passages about?

When read in context of the rest of Isiah it would seem they are about Israel as a people/nation (the Jewish people/nation) rather than Jesus. Although, as I said, I am open to the idea that it is a dual prophesy of Jesus and Israel as a people.

_-iconoclast-_ said:
You must have considered that the early church were jews. So there are/have been jews who do accept these as messianic prophecies. As for tovia, why would you consider him an authority?

Of course there were, however, the amount that converted to the amount that stayed Jewish and did not believe Yeshua was the Messiah is vastly weighed in favor of the people still waiting for the Messiah. That said, I also believe it is entirely possible that had the theology not developed into what became a separate religion it is entirely probable that more Jewish people would have believed in Yeshua as Messiah.

As for Rabbi Tovia, he is an authority. There are not many people that know the OT and NT as well as he does. Now, that does not mean that his interpretation is necessarily the right one. If I believed that I would have stopped believing on the spot after listening to his material. But I have not, and after listening to and reading more material that is in favor of Yeshua as the Messiah I am leaning back to that, but not a standard "Christian" point of view....hence why I am investigating Messianic Judaism.

_-iconoclast-_ said:
Please excuse me if this is a personal question. Have you had an experience with Jesus.

Cheers hey

Yes, absolutely I have. I also have a personal experience with G-d our heavenly Father as many devout Jewish people do. That experience is one of the main factors keeping me searching.

tampasteve · Sep 14, 2017

Serving Zion said:
Oh, no it isn't as though we can remove the doctrine as you are suggesting, instead it is important to understand it properly. Yahweh did not demand Jesus' blood on our behalf, but He judges and executes justice by commanding the heavenly host. The devil is the accuser, we wrestle not against flesh and blood, and if we sin we have an advocate in heaven to plead our case before The Father (Ephesians 3:14-15).

Unless we are pure of heart and of good conscience, we cannot stand justified in His presence. That is the necessity of atoning sacrifice. If we will not turn from our wicked ways, we will receive judgement. When the wages for our sin catches up with us, we receive that judgement. Either we repent and enter covenant, requiring atonement, or we cripple our faith by choosing to persist in sin (consider 1 John 1:6). The atonement happens here and now, when we enter covenant with Him (through baptism); but: antichrists have taught that atonement doesn't happen until we die, so they justify their continuation of sin. They do not uphold Hebrews 10:26.

Many have been baptised under perverted doctrines and their faith is severely compromised because of it.

Let me be honest, I really like what you have been saying. However, I am having an issue reconciling why Yeshua died before he could fulfill key prophesies? I can see the atonement reasons you are writing about though, that does make sense.

tampasteve · Sep 14, 2017

Update on me:

I have been listening to and reading a lot of pro-Yeshua and counter arguments in favor of Messianic prophesies. Some of my doubts have been blunted, and I cannot see myself leaving Yeshua entirely. I am still unsure of several important issues, but I believe I can work these out in some fashion. I also believe that I will land in some sort of Messianic Judaism belief and am going to attend a few MJ Synagogues in my area.

_-iconoclast-_ · Sep 15, 2017

tampasteve said:
Update on me:

I have been listening to and reading a lot of pro-Yeshua and counter arguments in favor of Messianic prophesies. Some of my doubts have been blunted, and I cannot see myself leaving Yeshua entirely. I am still unsure of several important issues, but I believe I can work these out in some fashion. I also believe that I will land in some sort of Messianic Judaism belief and am going to attend a few MJ Synagogues in my area.

Hey tampsteve God bless you saint.

Im glad to hear you still accept Jesus and your faith will be rewarded. May God bless you and give you the eternal inheritance He has promised through Jesus our Lord and saviour.

Hallelujah!!!

CherubRam · Sep 15, 2017

tampasteve said:
Let me be honest, I really like what you have been saying. However, I am having an issue reconciling why Yeshua died before he could fulfill key prophesies? I can see the atonement reasons you are writing about though, that does make sense.

The first time Yahshua comes as the suffering Messiah. The second time Yahshua comes as a victor.

CherubRam · Sep 15, 2017

"Messiah of Aaron and Israel." Priest and nation, Knowledge and wisdom.

Dead Sea Scrolls: The Damascus Rule.#6. "But God remembered the Covenant with the forefathers, and He raised from Aaron men of discernment and from Israel men of wisdom,"

The Community Rule (1QS) D.S.S. #9. "until there shall come the prophet and Messiah of Aaron and Israel".

[Aaron and Israel: Aaron was the high priest of the nation Israel.]

Yahshua is the Messiah of Aaron and Israel.
Isaiah 11:2
The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him— the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD...

Luke 2:40-47. 40. And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him. 47. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers.

1Cor 1:30. It is because of him that you are in Messiah Yahshua, who has become for us wisdom from God...

Serving Zion · Sep 15, 2017

tampasteve said:
Let me be honest, I really like what you have been saying. However, I am having an issue reconciling why Yeshua died before he could fulfill key prophesies? I can see the atonement reasons you are writing about though, that does make sense.

Consider Matthew 11:23. Jesus had not committed any sin to qualify being rejected, and the only reason He was rejected is because His teaching (as a theological lay-person, a carpenter) was to say that many of the ways that the Jewish leaders had been practising Judaism were failing to achieve what God wanted to achieve by them. This was causing those respected teachers to be humbled in public view because of Him. Ultimately, it was this pride and envy that provoked them to crucify Him (John 18:22, Matthew 27:18). Thus, we see that His life span was cut short not because of His own sin, but the sins of those who rejected Him, where their customs and beliefs had caused them to think evil of a holy man. For this reason, He has been resurrected to everlasting life so that He may continue in office as High Priest until such time as His Messianic duty is accomplished (eg: Isaiah 11:6-9).

One of the greatest achievements through this, is found in Ephesians 2:14. Where the Jews had received the promises of kingdom power, a promise that they claim genealogically, this had not eventuated in producing the proper sort of fruit (consider Judges 2:10-23). This is the purpose of the prophecy that is central in Christianity: Matthew 21:42-44. But, Jews are hard people, resilient, committed in faith. The consequence of this nature, (Exodus 32:9), is that if they incur a corruption in their belief system, the impact is severely destructive; whereas if they do well to please Him, their strength is unstoppable. This is why I am exited about what St. Paul wrote in Romans 11:23.

But consider this: that Jesus never withheld from someone who approached Him with a humble and contrite spirit, even if that one was from outside The House of Israel (consider Matthew 8:5-13). The fact that He lives forever as High Priest means that He will always live to exercise this perfect discretion in judgement, and the fact that He does so from heaven means that He is accessible to us not through any one physical person in one physical place, but in the heavenly realm itself (Philippians 3:20).

Adonai's view of salvation is for a world that will never go back to it's former ways (Romans 5:15-19).

visionary · Sep 16, 2017

Serving Zion said:
Consider Matthew 11:23. Jesus had not committed any sin to qualify being rejected, and the only reason He was rejected is because His teaching (as a theological lay-person, a carpenter) was to say that many of the ways that the Jewish leaders had been practising Judaism were failing to achieve what God wanted to achieve by them. This was causing those respected teachers to be humbled in public view because of Him. Ultimately, it was this pride and envy that provoked them to crucify Him (John 18:22, Matthew 27:18). Thus, we see that His life span was cut short not because of His own sin, but the sins of those who rejected Him, where their customs and beliefs had caused them to think evil of a holy man. For this reason, He has been resurrected to everlasting life so that He may continue in office as High Priest until such time as His Messianic duty is accomplished (eg: Isaiah 11:6-9).

One of the greatest achievements through this, is found in Ephesians 2:14. Where the Jews had received the promises of kingdom power, a promise that they claim genealogically, this had not eventuated in producing the proper sort of fruit (consider Judges 2:10-23). This is the purpose of the prophecy that is central in Christianity: Matthew 21:42-44. But, Jews are hard people, resilient, committed in faith. The consequence of this nature, (Exodus 32:9), is that if they incur a corruption in their belief system, the impact is severely destructive; whereas if they do well to please Him, their strength is unstoppable. This is why I am exited about what St. Paul wrote in Romans 11:23.

But consider this: that Jesus never withheld from someone who approached Him with a humble and contrite spirit, even if that one was from outside The House of Israel (consider Matthew 8:5-13). The fact that He lives forever as High Priest means that He will always live to exercise this perfect discretion in judgement, and the fact that He does so from heaven means that He is accessible to us not through any one physical person in one physical place, but in the heavenly realm itself (Philippians 3:20).

Adonai's view of salvation is for a world that will never go back to it's former ways (Romans 5:15-19).

Where do you get the idea that He is "forever" High Priest?

Serving Zion · Sep 16, 2017

visionary said:
Where do you get the idea that He is "forever" High Priest?

Hebrews 7:23-24:

Furthermore, the former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office; but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever.

visionary · Sep 16, 2017

Serving Zion said:
Hebrews 7:23-24:

Furthermore, the former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office; but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever.

That is an assumption that He holds the office of High Priest forever. Since there is no temple in the New Heaven and Earth, that means no more place for mediation, but it also makes sense, because at that time there is no more sin. Yeshua sits on the Throne of God as King of Kings.

gadar perets · Sep 16, 2017

tampasteve said:
I am still unsure of several important issues, but I believe I can work these out in some fashion.

May I ask what those issues are?

Serving Zion · Sep 16, 2017

visionary said:
Since there is no temple in the New Heaven and Earth, [...] at that time there is no more sin

Could you show where you find these?

CherubRam · Sep 16, 2017

Norbert L said:
If I'm correctly reading between the lines, are you implying that monotheism better describes what is going on in the OT rather than the divine plurality you find in the NT? Because that is not the case.

The term "Godhead" is an English variant of the word "godhood" and was first introduced by John Wycliffe (1330-1384 C.E.) in English Bible versions as godhede. The word "Godhead" is a translation of three different Greek words, theion (meaning "divinity, deity", # 2304 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) at Acts 17:29, theiotēs (meaning "divinity, divine nature", # 2305 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) at Romans 1:20, and theotēs (meaning "deity", # 2320 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) at Colossians 2:9.

To translate three different Greek words as one word and deviously incorrect at that in the King James Bible, is no different than translating in the King James Bible, the Hebrew word she’ol´ with three different English words of "hell" (10 times), "grave" (31 times), and "pit" (3 times).

This is not unlike having three different names for one street on a map (with the real name hidden), so that when a person used it, he wound up lost. Likewise of those who read Bibles with "Godhead" in it, thereby misleading a person that the xxxxxxx is "real".

Hence, the need for an accurate Bible, one that renders Hebrew and Greek words and phrases with a high degree of precision, just as a map that can be counted on to provide exact information. Unfortunately, many Bibles follow the lead of the King James Bible, or is otherwise biased, because the xxxxxxx, along with a host of other religious teachings that are not true, that has such a strangle hold on so many.

Need help, seriously questioning.

I live by faith in the Son of God.

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Well-Known Member

Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

Newbie

Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

Newbie

Pray for peace in Israel

Pray for peace in Israel

Pray for peace in Israel

I live by faith in the Son of God.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Messianic Hebrew

Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

Well-Known Member

Similar threads