Is Christianity Bad News for Women?

Dave-W · Sep 14, 2017

Paidiske said:
Zoii, I'm so sorry for the loss of your friend.

Me too.

Targaryen · Sep 15, 2017

Zoii said:
I wrote this to illustrate a few things...this isnt about me though I cannot tell you how much it tore me apart. It just so happens today is the anniversary of her death.

This I wrote after reading a few threads. As usual the treatment and value of women, but also the keeping of commandments and the biblical punishments if you did not.

Let me tell you that some parents deserve no honouring. After her death the anger I had in me just exploded and I would have truly murdered her father if I had been anywhere near him.

And what would be the judgement on those disposing of the despicable, when god himself commissioned murder for far less. Whats the punishment when you screamed for help and swore at God when it didnt come. Whats the punishment for my friend when she didnt keep the sabbath because she's busy trying to find somewhere to sleep - anything to avoid going home. And how is my friend judged because she coveted a life like most others have. And where is the blame for adultery when you wanted none of it.

The protection of children can be BS.
And even now a few years later nothing has changed.

A loving and Just God, the God that most of us worship, I don't personally feel would punish her for what she had to do or what she'd have needed to feel like she was wanted.

Maybe it's cold comfort, or maybe it's just a vain attempt to rationalize. Call it what you will, but I don't believe in a God like the one you've listed, and I don't think most Christians do.

Zoii · Sep 23, 2017

Its so exhausting to see thread after thread condemning women in leadership or ministry. The same old verses.

bekkilyn · Oct 3, 2017

Zoii said:
Its so exhausting to see thread after thread condemning women in leadership or ministry. The same old verses.

I had to take a break from the forum for a while because it got a bit too tiring. I do wholeheartedly believe that the Complementarian view is indeed abusive and also serves to twist the message that Paul was attempting to convey concerning *mutual* submission, and that *all* Christians were to put the needs of others before their own.

I am concerned that this "male headship" rubbish is gaining new popularity, even among young people. While investigating a claim last week that the ESV translation had replaced the NRSV translation, I discovered some pretty horrifying things about the ESV translation.

Apparently, a group of conservative Evangelical males decided to make their own revision to the RSV because they completely freaked out over the 2011 NIV that started using more gender accurate language, and the NRSV was already seen as "too liberal" for much of the same reasons.

So the ESV was formed. While it has only a 6% difference from the RSV, whenever translation decisions would need to be made, they translated in a way that would intentionally support their views of male authority and domination, even if the original language didn't specify gender. Like a tiny lie in the midst of truth to make it all seem as truth.

They made the claim that they were *unapologetically* Complementarian and that God created woman as "less than" from the very beginning of creation, an even worse view than those who claim it was the Fall that did it.

The study bible notes are apparently packed with this sort of nonsense.

It's just another bible version though, right? What is the harm of a super right-wing conservative Evangelical version of the bible when one can just choose a different version and not worry about it?

Well, the issue is that it's being heavily marketed as *the* most accurate and academic and best of the best, etc. and people are listening and the abusive Complementarian view is spreading because of this version's popularity, not only with conservative Evangelicals, but because unwary people who find it "easy to read" are also recommending it.

A version that just so happened to exclude anyone other than *male* Evangelicals from being on the translation/editorial panels. Women and non-Evangelical Christians need not apply.

Well the above revealing incident was not the only one I came across recently.

Another is that I referenced a NKJV Women's Bible that I had on the Kindle for something and started reading an introductory essay that caught my eye. EVERY single essay and note and everything was done by women and yet, all the male headship nonsense was being promoted here too! By WOMEN. Ugh!

(This is one big reason why I tend to shy away from many women-specific materials in Christianity because it seems like a lot of it is put out by married women who aren't called by God into anything too controversial, and so they feel secure and comfortable just letting a man take care of them and so are happy with the arrangement, and don't understand why every other woman isn't the same.)

And another incident is that I go to different churches and church activities with friends when I'm not doing something at my own church, and was in a bible study with one of the pastors at one of these other churches who told us that he believed that Eve was cursed by God and that's why men have authority, and he knows that a lot of women get angry and upset over it, but that women have to remember that when they do that, they are acting in rebellion with God himself because it was God and not men who decided it.

The poison is everywhere and it seems to be getting worse and worse.

(Apologies for writing a novel, but Complementarians can't attack me here, and my Atheist acquaintances just take it as yet another example as to why religion is bad and needs to be eradicated.)

Zoii · Oct 3, 2017

bekkilyn said:
I had to take a break from the forum for a while because it got a bit too tiring. I do wholeheartedly believe that the Complementarian view is indeed abusive and also serves to twist the message that Paul was attempting to convey concerning *mutual* submission, and that *all* Christians were to put the needs of others before their own.

I am concerned that this "male headship" rubbish is gaining new popularity, even among young people. While investigating a claim last week that the ESV translation had replaced the NRSV translation, I discovered some pretty horrifying things about the ESV translation.

Apparently, a group of conservative Evangelical males decided to make their own revision to the RSV because they completely freaked out over the 2011 NIV that started using more gender accurate language, and the NRSV was already seen as "too liberal" for much of the same reasons.

So the ESV was formed. While it has only a 6% difference from the RSV, whenever translation decisions would need to be made, they translated in a way that would intentionally support their views of male authority and domination, even if the original language didn't specify gender. Like a tiny lie in the midst of truth to make it all seem as truth.

They made the claim that they were *unapologetically* Complementarian and that God created woman as "less than" from the very beginning of creation, an even worse view than those who claim it was the Fall that did it.

The study bible notes are apparently packed with this sort of nonsense.

It's just another bible version though, right? What is the harm of a super right-wing conservative Evangelical version of the bible when one can just choose a different version and not worry about it?

Well, the issue is that it's being heavily marketed as *the* most accurate and academic and best of the best, etc. and people are listening and the abusive Complementarian view is spreading because of this version's popularity, not only with conservative Evangelicals, but because unwary people who find it "easy to read" are also recommending it.

A version that just so happened to exclude anyone other than *male* Evangelicals from being on the translation/editorial panels. Women and non-Evangelical Christians need not apply.

Well the above revealing incident was not the only one I came across recently.

Another is that I referenced a NKJV Women's Bible that I had on the Kindle for something and started reading an introductory essay that caught my eye. EVERY single essay and note and everything was done by women and yet, all the male headship nonsense was being promoted here too! By WOMEN. Ugh!

(This is one big reason why I tend to shy away from many women-specific materials in Christianity because it seems like a lot of it is put out by married women who aren't called by God into anything too controversial, and so they feel secure and comfortable just letting a man take care of them and so are happy with the arrangement, and don't understand why every other woman isn't the same.)

And another incident is that I go to different churches and church activities with friends when I'm not doing something at my own church, and was in a bible study with one of the pastors at one of these other churches who told us that he believed that Eve was cursed by God and that's why men have authority, and he knows that a lot of women get angry and upset over it, but that women have to remember that when they do that, they are acting in rebellion with God himself because it was God and not men who decided it.

The poison is everywhere and it seems to be getting worse and worse.

(Apologies for writing a novel, but Complementarians can't attack me here, and my Atheist acquaintances just take it as yet another example as to why religion is bad and needs to be eradicated.)

You just so very well reflected everything I fear in Christianity and everything i feel compelled to rebel against. Thank you

Paidiske · Oct 3, 2017

bekkilyn said:
This is one big reason why I tend to shy away from many women-specific materials in Christianity because it seems like a lot of it is put out by married women who aren't called by God into anything too controversial, and so they feel secure and comfortable just letting a man take care of them and so are happy with the arrangement, and don't understand why every other woman isn't the same.

I have a similar reaction, but for me it goes even deeper. I'm very wary of, say, gender-specific Bible studies. Isn't Scripture saying the same things to all of us? Why do we need women's devotional materials, different to the men's? Or why do we need to learn and study separately from them? Doesn't that just deepen alienation between us?

I very consciously avoid anything labelled as being for one gender or the other.

Zoii · Oct 3, 2017

I struggle with conflicting statements. God and all the angels are Male..... What.... Do they have a penis? Y chromosomes? Why of how are they Male....... Ok how do you know this..... The Bible says HE...... So do we have sex or some sort of gender identity in heaven?..... No..... Well it gender doesnt matter what's all this about HE.... And of course it's the HE that's used as the starting crutch to all that stuff about Male leadership.

Dave-W · Oct 3, 2017

Zoii said:
. The Bible says HE...

You are taking the statement according to current usage. In literature from the ancient world that does not work.

Almost ALL ancient languages used masculine for everything. I remember it from Latin class, I have seen it in Greek, and Amy Jill Levine (traditional Jewish) wrote in her book "Short Stories by Jesus," that in first century Aramaic and biblical Hebrew if you had a group of a thousand women and only one man, the masculine was used. ONLY if the group was entirely female was the feminine form used.

So even if there were 90% female angels, that 10% would make the language masculine.

And God is called "Father," but in the OT almost every trait HE exhibits, and even a few of His names, seem very female. Example: the name El Shaddai, is usually rendered "all sufficient God;" but the Hebrew word "shad' means "breast." The -ai suffix is first person singular: "my."

And remember that according to Genesis, both male and female were in HIS image.

PloverWing · Oct 3, 2017

I hadn't realized that about the history of the ESV. I had wondered, when it came out, why we needed yet another translation, when the NRSV and NIV seem to be perfectly good mainstream translations. Grr.

FireDragon76 · Oct 3, 2017

Paidiske said:
I have a similar reaction, but for me it goes even deeper. I'm very wary of, say, gender-specific Bible studies. Isn't Scripture saying the same things to all of us? Why do we need women's devotional materials, different to the men's? Or why do we need to learn and study separately from them? Doesn't that just deepen alienation between us?

I very consciously avoid anything labelled as being for one gender or the other.

I think alot of blame can be laid at the feet of the Pietists in this regard, going back to Zizendorf, as they seemed to take a disciplined, methodical approach to piety and spirituality, including categorization of males and females as having distinctly separate needs.

I don't think men and women are completely identical and interchangeable, but the complimentarian characterization of gender is far too simplistic. It actually hurts men as much as women, as it locks them into equally rigid gender roles.

bekkilyn · Oct 3, 2017

Paidiske said:
I have a similar reaction, but for me it goes even deeper. I'm very wary of, say, gender-specific Bible studies. Isn't Scripture saying the same things to all of us? Why do we need women's devotional materials, different to the men's? Or why do we need to learn and study separately from them? Doesn't that just deepen alienation between us?

I very consciously avoid anything labelled as being for one gender or the other.

I tend to avoid those as well. I might do a women's bible study if it's the only choice available to me at the time, or because I want to fellowship with friends who are in the study, but otherwise, I choose options where both women and men are included. I'm just not really all that fond of women's groups in general, religious or otherwise. (Though I can see a need for certain types of women-only recovery groups.)

Continuing on that example concerning the NKJV Study Bible I included in my previous post, I visited Amazon after reading that Complementarian-biased essay to see if there were any complaints about it only to see that it had rave reviews because the physical bible was so pretty and feminine. (Mine was a Kindle copy I got because I needed an NKJV translation for something and it was on sale for 99 cents or two dollars, so I didn't even notice this feature when I bought it.)

That's apparently another insidious way to market Complementarian bible study materials to women. Dress it up in a pretty package and hope that we don't notice until we are hopefully already indoctrinated.

bekkilyn · Oct 3, 2017

Zoii said:
I struggle with conflicting statements. God and all the angels are Male..... What.... Do they have a penis? Y chromosomes? Why of how are they Male....... Ok how do you know this..... The Bible says HE...... So do we have sex or some sort of gender identity in heaven?..... No..... Well it gender doesnt matter what's all this about HE.... And of course it's the HE that's used as the starting crutch to all that stuff about Male leadership.

We call God called "he" due to tradition, but the only part of the Trinity that really has a gender is Jesus due to having been born a human male.

FireDragon76 said:
I don't think men and women are completely identical and interchangeable, but the complimentarian characterization of gender is far too simplistic. It actually hurts men as much as women, as it locks them into equally rigid gender roles.

I don't think *people* are completely identical and interchangeable. If we treated each other as unique *individuals* rather than as "male vs. female" then we could truly complement each other within the Body rather than having it continue to limp around all lopsided with fingers being forced into trying to function as toes, and heart valves forced into trying to operate as ankle bones.

And yes, it does negatively affect men as well.

Zoii · Oct 5, 2017

Some very recent research all Churches should make note of - christian or otherwise. This discusses positive and theraputic collaborations with clergy, whilst also highlighting the negative impacts of religion in relation to child sexual abuse.

Religion in child sexual abuse forensic interviews

Child Abuse & Neglect 63 (2017) 120–130

39 child forensic interviewersand child advocacy center (CAC) directors in the United States discussed religious influenceson children’s sexual abuse experiences, their relationships to CACs, and their disclosuresin the forensic setting

Participants frequently discussed detrimental factors related to spirituality and religious involvement. They observed that perpetrators, religious traditions, religious tenets and religious leaders could manipulate youth, using religion perversely as a tool of corruption, exploitation, shaming, secrecy, and isolation. These latter detrimental effects of religion may be familiar, given recent widely disseminated and newsworthy stories of CSA in a variety of common religions. The participants’ descriptions of the ways these harms appear in forensic interviews add specificity to the growing body of literature on religion-related child maltreatment (e.g., Bottoms, Goodman, Tolou-Shams, Diviak, & Shaver, 2015).

Zoii · Oct 11, 2017

International Day of the child Focusing on:
Child marriage
Child abuse
Female Genital Mutilation
Slavery - particularly as products of war

International Day of the Girl Child, 11 October

Dave-W · Oct 13, 2017

Over in the men's folder there is a thread called "Is Christianity a 'feminine' Religion?" Since many of the posters here are female, there is little reason to post a link since you cannot go there anyway.

What I find interesting is that many women find Christianity too masculine, while some men find it too feminine.

Paidiske · Oct 13, 2017

I think there's a difference between saying Christianity is "too masculine" and saying that it's patriarchal.

Nobody would call this a masculine garment, for example, but its wearer is part of a very patriarchal church governance system:

Perceptions of masculinity or femininity are cultural and subjective. Whether or not power, control and authority are shared equally between men and women is easier to measure objectively.

I do find it hard to sympathise with men who complain that the church is too feminine, but then I guess in my experience it's not very feminine. What are the common issues being cited with that complaint, Dave?

bekkilyn · Oct 13, 2017

Before I took my last break from the forum, I remember someone complaining somewhere on CF that the church was "too feminine" and it needed more testosterone. The example he gave to "prove" his claim was that there were flowers in the sanctuary.

Paidiske · Oct 13, 2017

There's no rule that there must be, though. I mean, if the flowers distress you so much, move a motion at a council meeting to remove the flowers, and voila! You too can be right at home... (I couldn't really care less about the flowers).

Dave-W · Oct 16, 2017

Paidiske said:
(I couldn't really care less about the flowers).

I care only if they are lilies, and specifically Easter Lilies. There is something about their aroma that nauseates me. And I do not like having to leave a service to empty my stomach of breakfast. (it has happened on occasion)

bekkilyn · Oct 16, 2017

I suspect that for the person who made the complaint concerning flowers, that even if all flowers were banished from churches everywhere for all time, he would still be complaining about "feminization". If it wasn't flowers, it would be something else for as long as women are involved in some aspect of the church.

Not to mention that the assumption that the flowers are there specifically because of women is a misguided one to begin with.

Is Christianity Bad News for Women?

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