What did God mean?

visionary · Sep 15, 2017

What does this mean?

Is 1:14 “My being hates your New Moons and your appointed times, they are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them.

Were they a substitute for God's appointed times, or were they a very bad version of God's appointed times? Why is God "bearing" "Your" appointed times?

31gH9N.9. · Sep 15, 2017

I think it's a matter of the heart. God has always wanted a circumcised heart and not just an outward show. I can't think of a specific verse where he says this right now, maybe someone else does. Jesus said the Pharisees would tithe even all their herbs but they passed over the weightier matters of the law like mercy and justice.

Dkh587 · Sep 15, 2017

God doesn't want anything to do with their feasts, sacrifices, fasting etc because of their wickedness. At this point, the Israelites had gone so far from God, and were still celebrating feasts, sacrifices, offerings etc but God was not interested because their heart was not right.

Isaiah 1:1-15 NLT

These are the visions that Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Yahudah and Jerusalem. He saw these visions during the years when Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah were kings of Yahudah.

Listen, O heavens! Pay attention, earth!

This is what YAH says:
"The children I raised and cared for have rebelled against me. Even an ox knows its owner, and a donkey recognizes its master’s care — but Israel doesn’t know its master. My people don’t recognize my care for them."

Oh, what a sinful nation they are — loaded down with a burden of guilt.

They are evil people, corrupt children who have rejected YAH.

They have despised the Holy One of Israel and turned their backs on him.

Why do you continue to invite punishment?

Must you rebel forever?

Your head is injured, and your heart is sick.

You are battered from head to foot — covered with bruises, welts, and infected wounds — without any soothing ointments or bandages.

Your country lies in ruins, and your towns are burned.

Foreigners plunder your fields before your eyes and destroy everything they see.

Beautiful Jerusalem stands abandoned like a watchman’s shelter in a vineyard, like a lean-to in a cucumber field after the harvest, like a helpless city under siege.

If YAH of Hosts had not spared a few of us, we would have been wiped out like Sodom, destroyed like Gomorrah.

Listen to YAH, you leaders of “Sodom.”

Listen to the law of our God, people of “Gomorrah.”

“What makes you think I want all your sacrifices?” says YAH.

“I am sick of your burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fattened cattle.
I get no pleasure from the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
When you come to worship me, who asked you to parade through my courts with all your ceremony?
Stop bringing me your meaningless gifts; the incense of your offerings disgusts me!
As for your celebrations of the new moon and the Sabbath and your special days for fasting — they are all sinful and false.
I want no more of your pious meetings.
I hate your new moon celebrations and your annual festivals.
They are a burden to me.
I cannot stand them!
When you lift up your hands in prayer, I will not look.
Though you offer many prayers, I will not listen, for your hands are covered with the blood of innocent victims".

tampasteve · Sep 15, 2017

Read in a larger context of Isiah 1 I think it is in relation to the teachings that our sins can be atoned for without blood, that G-d prefers our hearts to change to blood. G-d wants our hearts to be in our worship of Him, not our repetitive and unfeeling minds. (JPS translation)

1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me? saith the Lord; I am full of the burnt-offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he-goats.

1:12 When ye come to appear before Me, who hath required this at your hand, to trample My courts?

1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; it is an offering of abomination unto Me; new moon and sabbath, the holding of convocations-- I cannot endure iniquity along with the solemn assembly.

1:14 Your new moons and your appointed seasons My soul hateth; they are a burden unto Me; I am weary to bear them.

1:15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide Mine eyes from you; yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear; your hands are full of blood.

1:16 Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from before Mine eyes, cease to do evil;

1:17 Learn to do well; seek justice, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

miamited · Sep 15, 2017

visionary said:
What does this mean?

Is 1:14 “My being hates your New Moons and your appointed times, they are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them.

Were they a substitute for God's appointed times, or were they a very bad version of God's appointed times? Why is God "bearing" "Your" appointed times?

Hi visionary,

Often times it's tough to figure some position out on just the copy and paste of a single sentence. Many people do, however, fall into the error of such a practice. I'm not saying that's what you're doing here but just pointing out that such a method of understanding the Scriptures can be fraught with error.

So, having said that, let's look at the context of this statement. God is decrying to Isaiah what a trouble and a burden Israel has become to Him. He raised them up to be a holy and faithful people through which He would reveal His love and mercy and power and glory to the world, and they just continually and repeatedly stumbled and fell and seemed to just clearly not understand their purpose.

He begins this claim against His people: Hear me, you heavens! Listen, earth! For the LORD has spoken: “I reared children and brought them up, but they have rebelled against me. He then continues with His complaint against them: The ox knows its master, the donkey its owner’s manger, but Israel does not know, my people do not understand.” He continues:
Woe to the sinful nation, a people whose guilt is great, a brood of evildoers, children given to corruption! They have forsaken the LORD; they have spurned the Holy One of Israel and turned their backs on him. Why should you be beaten anymore? Why do you persist in rebellion? Your whole head is injured, your whole heart afflicted. From the sole of your foot to the top of your head there is no soundness— only wounds and welts and open sores, not cleansed or bandaged or soothed with olive oil. Your country is desolate, your cities burned with fire; your fields are being stripped by foreigners right before you, laid waste as when overthrown by strangers. Daughter Zion is left like a shelter in a vineyard, like a hut in a cucumber field, like a city under siege. Unless the LORD Almighty had left us some survivors, we would have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah. Hear the word of the LORD, you rulers of Sodom; listen to the instruction of our God, you people of Gomorrah!

So, now He has leveled His complaint against them and then tells them that their new moon festivals and sacrifices, in light of the attitude of their hearts, is worthless to Him. Their practice of faith had become a sort of revolving door of sin and forgiveness. Go out and sin and live wicked lives, but then be sure and bring in your sacrifice so that God will forgive you. Now, they likely, as a group, didn't see their living as being particularly sinful throughout the days between sacrifice and new moon festivals, but God obviously did. This is where we christians, still today, need to be careful that our practice is a true form of religion that is pleasing to God.

Example: Some fellowships offer communion every week. It's a part of the order of service each and every week and over time it just becomes something that takes up 10-15 minutes of the service. Everyone takes their cup and piece of bread and bows their head and listens to the leader pray and then, at the appointed time, drinks of the cup and eats the bread without really giving any thought in their individual heart as to just what exactly they are doing. It's just what comes before the offering part of the service and you do it. Then you stand up and sing a hymn or two and go on about the service. Now, I'm not saying that is the attitude of every heart in such a service, but it does become rote practice for many. This same manner of rote practice is apparently what had become of Israel's worship and offering and the use of the sacrificial system for the forgiveness of their sins.

So God tells them, "Look, your practice of sacrifice and sin and sacrifice and sin, ad nauseum, isn't what I'm asking of you. All that slaughtering of rams and bulls and sheep just to show yourselves going through the motions isn't what this is about. You guys don't understand!!"

Again, pulling out just one sentence restricts understanding. We read just before this passage of the new moon and festivals, this:
“The multitude of your sacrifices— what are they to me?” says the LORD. “I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats. When you come to appear before me, who has asked this of you, this trampling of my courts? Stop bringing meaningless offerings! Your incense is detestable to me. New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations— I cannot bear your worthless assemblies.

So, it's not just about the new moon festivals and other of the half dozen or so festivals that God had instituted as a part of His desire from their worship. No! Not at all! God was tired of all of it! He was weary of watching them spill the blood of bulls, lambs and goats. He was sick and tired of their trampling of His courts. He was wearied by their burnt offering of rams and fattened animals. And, He was through putting up with their new moon and other festivals. Their Sabbath practices and assemblies.

Now, we can certainly do some in depth study of what 'bearing' means, but I think the intent should be clear. God was tired of putting up with it all. Just as we say that we can't 'bear' to look at some horrible disaster, I imagine that God is meaning the same thing hear. He was just sick and tired of looking down on all their wickedness and watching them trying to pass off some fake practice of religion thinking that they were doing the will of their God.

That's my two cent's worth.

BTW, I apologize if I have overstepped my place here. I came to this thread from the 'new threads' banner and didn't realize that I was in the Messianic Judaism threads until I'd written it all out. So, I'll leave it to anyone who cares to dismiss this thread if they'd rather because I'm not really qualified to post here. However, as all being believers in the Scriptures and the same Lord, I would hope that my unlawful input would at least be considered as just as worthy as anyone else's on this particular subject.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

visionary · Sep 15, 2017

miamited said:
Hi visionary,

Often times it's tough to figure some position out on just the copy and paste of a single sentence. Many people do, however, fall into the error of such a practice. I'm not saying that's what you're doing here but just pointing out that such a method of understanding the Scriptures can be fraught with error.

So, having said that, let's look at the context of this statement. God is decrying to Isaiah what a trouble and a burden Israel has become to Him. He raised them up to be a holy and faithful people through which He would reveal His love and mercy and power and glory to the world, and they just continually and repeatedly stumbled and fell and seemed to just clearly not understand their purpose.

He begins this claim against His people: Hear me, you heavens! Listen, earth! For the LORD has spoken: “I reared children and brought them up, but they have rebelled against me. He then continues with His complaint against them: The ox knows its master, the donkey its owner’s manger, but Israel does not know, my people do not understand.” He continues:
Woe to the sinful nation, a people whose guilt is great, a brood of evildoers, children given to corruption! They have forsaken the LORD; they have spurned the Holy One of Israel and turned their backs on him. Why should you be beaten anymore? Why do you persist in rebellion? Your whole head is injured, your whole heart afflicted. From the sole of your foot to the top of your head there is no soundness— only wounds and welts and open sores, not cleansed or bandaged or soothed with olive oil. Your country is desolate, your cities burned with fire; your fields are being stripped by foreigners right before you, laid waste as when overthrown by strangers. Daughter Zion is left like a shelter in a vineyard, like a hut in a cucumber field, like a city under siege. Unless the LORD Almighty had left us some survivors, we would have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah. Hear the word of the LORD, you rulers of Sodom; listen to the instruction of our God, you people of Gomorrah!

So, now He has leveled His complaint against them and then tells them that their new moon festivals and sacrifices, in light of the attitude of their hearts, is worthless to Him. Their practice of faith had become a sort of revolving door of sin and forgiveness. Go out and sin and live wicked lives, but then be sure and bring in your sacrifice so that God will forgive you. Now, they likely, as a group, didn't see their living as being particularly sinful throughout the days between sacrifice and new moon festivals, but God obviously did. This is where we christians, still today, need to be careful that our practice is a true form of religion that is pleasing to God.

Example: Some fellowships offer communion every week. It's a part of the order of service each and every week and over time it just becomes something that takes up 10-15 minutes of the service. Everyone takes their cup and piece of bread and bows their head and listens to the leader pray and then, at the appointed time, drinks of the cup and eats the bread without really giving any thought in their individual heart as to just what exactly they are doing. It's just what comes before the offering part of the service and you do it. Then you stand up and sing a hymn or two and go on about the service. Now, I'm not saying that is the attitude of every heart in such a service, but it does become rote practice for many. This same manner of rote practice is apparently what had become of Israel's worship and offering and the use of the sacrificial system for the forgiveness of their sins.

So God tells them, "Look, your practice of sacrifice and sin and sacrifice and sin, ad nauseum, isn't what I'm asking of you. All that slaughtering of rams and bulls and sheep just to show yourselves going through the motions isn't what this is about. You guys don't understand!!"

Again, pulling out just one sentence restricts understanding. We read just before this passage of the new moon and festivals, this:
“The multitude of your sacrifices— what are they to me?” says the LORD. “I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats. When you come to appear before me, who has asked this of you, this trampling of my courts? Stop bringing meaningless offerings! Your incense is detestable to me. New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations— I cannot bear your worthless assemblies.

So, it's not just about the new moon festivals and other of the half dozen or so festivals that God had instituted as a part of His desire from their worship. No! Not at all! God was tired of all of it! He was weary of watching them spill the blood of bulls, lambs and goats. He was sick and tired of their trampling of His courts. He was wearied by their burnt offering of rams and fattened animals. And, He was through putting up with their new moon and other festivals. Their Sabbath practices and assemblies.

Now, we can certainly do some in depth study of what 'bearing' means, but I think the intent should be clear. God was tired of putting up with it all. Just as we say that we can't 'bear' to look at some horrible disaster, I imagine that God is meaning the same thing hear. He was just sick and tired of looking down on all their wickedness and watching them trying to pass off some fake practice of religion thinking that they were doing the will of their God.

That's my two cent's worth.

BTW, I apologize if I have overstepped my place here. I came to this thread from the 'new threads' banner and didn't realize that I was in the Messianic Judaism threads until I'd written it all out. So, I'll leave it to anyone who cares to dismiss this thread if they'd rather because I'm not really qualified to post here. However, as all being believers in the Scriptures and the same Lord, I would hope that my unlawful input would at least be considered as just as worthy as anyone else's on this particular subject.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

As a conversation starter, you have jumped in with an excellent overview of the problem from which God made the statement. I hope that it doesn't end there, but that nuances are also brought forth...

miamited · Sep 15, 2017

visionary said:
As a conversation starter, you have jumped in with an excellent overview of the problem from which God made the statement. I hope that it doesn't end there, but that nuances are also brought forth...

Hi visionary,

Well, certainly nuances can be considered, however, we must be careful in how much importance we assign to such nuances. I often find that digging into single words or two or three word phrases, can be a difficult undertaking which is why I brought forth the context of your questioned passage. While we can certainly offer up some discussion on the word 'bearing', if we understand and appreciate the full context, I believe that our understanding what might have been meant by this particular word is pretty clearly explained.

Some things to consider about such an endeavor. We are reading a translated piece of work. We don't have access to any original writer of the Scriptures to really confirm or deny that our 'nuanced' understanding is or isn't correct. At best, it can only be a supposition on our part that such is what the writer intended. We also, as I mentioned, are reading a translated piece of work and so the actual word we are reading is the word that some translator picked out, likely based on the context, that best translates the, in this case of the old covenant, ancient Hebrew of the original text.

If we look throughout the various translations of this particular piece, we find that lo and behold, 'bearing' isn't the word with which many other translators translated the original Hebrew text. The Bible in Basic English translates it as: I am crushed under them.

This paints a picture of the Hebrews piling on and piling on all these festivals and sacrifices and practices that are not really in keeping with what God has commanded of them and He feels crushed under the weight of such false and irreverent practices.

The Complete Jewish Bible actually says exactly what I'm saying it means: I am tired of putting up with them! So too, does the Holman Standard Bible.

The KJV and NKJV use the word 'bear' instead of 'bearing'. So, this is more in line with what I explained of someone who says that they can't 'bear' to look. Consider: What does the word 'bear' mean when someone says that they can't 'bear' to look? We all know what the phrase means and understand that it can also be said as, 'I can't stand to look'. So, if 'bear' can mean 'stand', isn't God saying that He can't stand to look at these wicked practices?

So, the first thing we need to practice in working on nuances of words, is to throw out any and all translations and start with the original text. Because if we start with the translated work, we are already allowing for the first error. That the translator didn't really grab the essence of the original work in his translation. I remember a fine teacher of a fellowship where I met and in most of his efforts to explain the nuances of words that we find in the Scriptures, he always started with what the base language word was. He would often say that the word translated here is the Hebrew or Greek word ________. He would then go on to expound on the various meanings and intentions of the original word.

I remember him doing a study on the Revelation where we are told that Jesus is coming soon. Today a lot of people use that passage to explain that Jesus has already come because he said he was coming soon. Or that Jesus isn't coming at all because he didn't come soon after those words were written.
However, in his exegesis of the original word, he showed how the word doesn't really translate well as 'soon', but rather 'quickly'. That the idea was that when Jesus comes, it will happen very quickly. This conforms with other passages of Scripture regarding Jesus' return. We are told that it will happen in the 'twinkling' of an eye. A twinkling is not a blink, but a the idea of a momentary sparkle. Similar to when we look at the sun shining on gently moving water. The water seems to sparkle with light that twinkles momentarily on the surface in one place and then another. Causing a dazzling effect to our eyes.

In a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

So, as I say, studying nuances can be helpful, but it can also lead to error.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

visionary · Sep 15, 2017

anyone else??

Heber Book List · Sep 15, 2017

Who is teaching whom?

The answer was given way back - short and to the point

Open Heart · Sep 15, 2017

Dkh587 said:
God doesn't want anything to do with their feasts, sacrifices, fasting etc because of their wickedness. At this point, the Israelites had gone so far from God, and were still celebrating feasts, sacrifices, offerings etc but God was not interested because their heart was not right.

Isaiah 1:1-15 NLT

Exactly. It had become lip service. What good is all this if you are steeped in idolatry? To obey is better than sacrifice.

visionary · Sep 16, 2017

The thread posters have come to the conclusion that these feasts were indeed His feasts just improperly kept. S

OOOOOO .. why does God state that they were their feasts and not His? Is this why the Bible calls it the feasts of the Jews?

Soyeong · Sep 16, 2017

visionary said:
What does this mean?

Is 1:14 “My being hates your New Moons and your appointed times, they are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them.

Were they a substitute for God's appointed times, or were they a very bad version of God's appointed times? Why is God "bearing" "Your" appointed times?

God has always disdained it when His people outwardly obeyed Him while their hearts were far from Him because that completely misses the entire point of obeying His commands.

Ygrene Imref · Sep 16, 2017

visionary said:
What does this mean?

Is 1:14 “My being hates your New Moons and your appointed times, they are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them.

Were they a substitute for God's appointed times, or were they a very bad version of God's appointed times? Why is God "bearing" "Your" appointed times?

As said already, the Hebrews were vile - and, disrespectfully so. In a way, they would sin and sacrifice "just to have a BBQ." It was repugnant the things they did and participated in under God.

God was fed up.

But what I especially like is that this chapter is a glimpse of Parental God. Just like a parent reprimanding a disobedient child, God goes off on the them, and then in v18 He says that they can reason with each other to make them better. What God would do that if not a parent? I don't think Zeus would put up with such insolence - even with his children; indeed, he has also punished several mortals for less than what the Israelites did.

visionary · Sep 16, 2017

why does God state that they were their feasts and not His? Is this why the Bible calls it the feasts of the Jews?

Heber Book List · Sep 16, 2017

visionary said:
why does God state that they were their feasts and not His? Is this why the Bible calls it the feasts of the Jews?

Because G_d wasn't in them - it was purely 'man doing his bit' with just the odd, occasional nod in the direction of G_d and the purity of his Law; ergo, G_d got fed up with what they were doing.

In the same way he also tells them that he did not tell them to make sacrifices, which he manifestly did tell them to do, but not in the selfish and purely legalistic way they were recognising the feasts.

They were, no longer, the Feasts of G_d - he openly disowned them.

It should speak volumes to today's Church in so many ways!

Lulav · Sep 16, 2017

visionary said:
What does this mean?

Is 1:14 “My being hates your New Moons and your appointed times, they are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them.

Were they a substitute for God's appointed times, or were they a very bad version of God's appointed times? Why is God "bearing" "Your" appointed times?

Yes I think that is the emphasis.

I think that they were not observed as ordained, but in their own way most likely incorporating pagan ways, just like today.

Lulav · Sep 16, 2017

visionary said:
why does God state that they were their feasts and not His? Is this why the Bible calls it the feasts of the Jews?

Cause they did it 'their way'. This happened to when the Jewish leaders of the Way were dispersed and Gentiles took over. When it became a national religion it was used to conquer others and to make it more 'palatable' they were allowed to keep some of their pagan traditions or they were just renamed.

G-d is very strict about separation from Holy and profane, man is very good at mixing it up.

As far as calling them the feasts of the Jews, that is strange, if written by a Jew it shouldn't be labeled that way unless in a comparison to other nations.

visionary · Sep 16, 2017

Lulav said:
Cause they did it 'their way'. This happened to when the Jewish leaders of the Way were dispersed and Gentiles took over. When it became a national religion it was used to conquer others and to make it more 'palatable' they were allowed to keep some of their pagan traditions or they were just renamed.

G-d is very strict about separation from Holy and profane, man is very good at mixing it up.

As far as calling them the feasts of the Jews, that is strange, if written by a Jew it shouldn't be labeled that way unless in a comparison to other nations.

Why would the author be concerned about other nations, when he was writing to another Jew?

Lulav · Sep 16, 2017

visionary said:
Why would the author be concerned about other nations, when he was writing to another Jew?

When you said why were they called the feasts of the Jews I thought you were referring to NT times, that is what I was responding to.

visionary said:
Is this why the Bible calls it the feasts of the Jews?

I only remember it being called that in the NT not the OT.

visionary · Sep 16, 2017

Lulav said:
When you said why were they called the feasts of the Jews I thought you were referring to NT times, that is what I was responding to. I only remember it being called that in the NT not the OT.

Could it be that by the time of the NT writers, there were so many other nations in Jerusalem, that even the Jews started to identify God's feasts as theirs.

John 6:4 And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.

What did God mean?

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