Faith or Predestination

Hammster · Sep 14, 2017

RisenInJesus said:
I believe one error of Calvinism is equating predestination with salvation, whereas the scriptures do not do so. In the the scriptures the point of predestination is that God has determined beforehand that all believers, whoever places their faith in Christ, are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. No where do the scriptures teach that God determines who will have salvation to eternal life or who will not have that opportunity, but spend instead go on to eternal damnation.

Actually, Reformed Theology doesn't equate predestination with salvation. That's your assertion.

RisenInJesus · Sep 14, 2017

Marvin Knox said:
The offer of salvation is made to all men. Any Calvinist will tell you that.

Yes, Calvinists will say that the offer is made to all. But what kind of an offer is it when there are those, according to Calvinism, who can not possibly understand or respond to the gospel? It certainly does not sound like an offer God, who the Bible defines as LOVE and JUST, would make to His created beings. It would be like someone standing in front of a paraplegic laying on the floor offering all the money needed for surgery to restore their physical ability, yet insisting they walk over to get it all the while knowing they have no ability to do so.

Marvin Knox said:
Calvinism was definitely mentioned in the OP. But, like I said, predestination and Calvinism are not synonymous and the bottom line of the OP, as I read it, was "Is it faith or predestination?" - which is a false dichotomy. It's not either or. It's both.

In the scriptures, though, it is faith alone.

BTW, although, I don't necessarily agree with you on various points, I do appreciate your respectful demeanor and the way you express your views. Thank you.

RisenInJesus · Sep 14, 2017

Hammster said:
Actually, Reformed Theology doesn't equate predestination with salvation. That's your assertion.

Can someone have salvation without being predestined to it?

Hammster · Sep 14, 2017

RisenInJesus said:
Can someone have salvation without being predestined to it?

Scripture says we are predestined to be conformed to His image. We've also been predestined to be adopted as children.

That's what scripture says. What do you say?

RisenInJesus · Sep 14, 2017

Hammster said:
Scripture says we are predestined to be conformed to His image. We've also been predestined to be adopted as children.

That's what scripture says. What do you say?

Yes, the scriptures say both, that believers are predestined to be conformed to His image and be adopted as children. The scriptures do not say who is predestined to believe or that God determines to give some salvation, while the rest He gives no opportunity for deliverance from eternal torment.

lesliedellow · Sep 14, 2017

InterestedApologist said:
For example, how does one reconcile Gods desire that none would perish in 2 Peter 3:9 with a God who creates some humans solely for the purpose of pouring out his wrath and condemning them to hell from before the foundations of the world?

By recognising that the pronoun "us" or "you" (depending upon the translation) refers to the people being addressed - i.e. the Church.

While I believe that the scriptures alone provide enough evidence to negate a TULIP or hyper-Calvinist doctrine,

So TULIP is hyper calvinist. What would your version of low Calvinism look like? Arminianism?

Tolworth John · Sep 14, 2017

And Ephesians ch 1 v 4 say, He ( that is God ) chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blamless in his sight.
v 5 in love he (God) predesined us to be adopted as Sons
in verse 11, in him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him (God) etc

Chosen before creation, have ever you play with language God knew you and I and determine that we would become Christian at atime and place of his (God) choice.

Tolworth John · Sep 14, 2017

And Ephesians ch 1 v 4 say, He ( that is God ) chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blamless in his sight.
v 5 in love he (God) predesined us to be adopted as Sons
in verse 11, in him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him (God) etc

Chosen before creation, have ever you play with language and words, God knew you and I and determine that we would become Christian at a time and place of his (God) choice.

Tolworth John · Sep 14, 2017

bling said:
God gave man an earthly objective and the ability to obtain the power (Love) which can allow man to fulfill the mission statement of: “Love God (and secondly Loving others) with all your heart, soul, mind and energy?

God planned away for all lost to be saved, but did not force salvation (charity/Love) on them, since that would be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun and Love would not be obtained by the lost individual and it would not be Loving on God’s part.

NO! Not at all! God is doing or allowing all He can to the greatest detail to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective. What God allows or causes includes: Christ going to the cross, satan roaming the earth, tragedies of all kinds, hell, death, and even man to sin.

lesliedellow · Sep 14, 2017

RisenInJesus said:
I believe one error of Calvinism is equating predestination with salvation, whereas the scriptures do not do so. In the the scriptures the point of predestination is that God has determined beforehand that all believers, whoever places their faith in Christ, are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. No where do the scriptures teach that God determines who will have salvation to eternal life or who will not have that opportunity, but instead go on to eternal damnation.

"Romans 9:19-20 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"

So why was Paul expecting precisely the same indignant response from his first readers, as that regularly heard from non-Calvinists?

Hammster · Sep 14, 2017

RisenInJesus said:
Yes, the scriptures say both, that believers are predestined to be conformed to His image and be adopted as children. The scriptures do not say who is predestined to believe or that God determines to give some salvation, while the rest He gives no opportunity for deliverance from eternal torment.

So are those who will never believe predestined to be adopted?

ViaCrucis · Sep 14, 2017

RisenInJesus said:
Is it faith or predestination?

Yes.

-CryptoLutheran

Marvin Knox · Sep 14, 2017

nonaeroterraqueous said:
I just noticed that you replied to my signature line. That's not actually part of the post. It's just something that automatically shows at the end.
I wasn't replying to your post, just quoting it for emphasis, because I liked it.

OK.
I understand.
My mistake.

Marvin Knox · Sep 14, 2017

RisenInJesus said:
I believe one error of Calvinism is equating predestination with salvation, whereas the scriptures do not do so.

With all due respect ---- I believe one error of anti-Calvinists is equating predestination with salvation. Calvinists do not.

RisenInJesus said:
In the the scriptures the point of predestination is that God has determined beforehand that all believers, whoever places their faith in Christ, are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. No where do the scriptures teach that God determines who will have salvation to eternal life or who will not have that opportunity, but instead go on to eternal damnation.

The point of predestination is determining beforehand just what will happen throughout the history of God's creation (or be allowed to happen if you must),

This is the sovereign choice of God and it is according to His wise and perfect will. It is also the key to understanding just how God can be "sovereign" in all that happens in His creation and still give the gift of "free" choice to His creatures.

God's determining that I will choose a certain thing requires His "forcing" me to make that choice or eliminating my ability to do so NO MORE THAN determining that an earthquake will take place when Christ was crucified required that He eliminate or manipulate the laws of geology.

By the way, you are equating the doctrine of predestination with the doctrine of election. It's a common mistake.

You are also linking the decrees of God or just what He will and will not do or allow in history (resulting in the predestination of all things) exclusively with the choice of certain men to believe the gospel and act on it or not to do so. That's also a common mistake.

RisenInJesus said:
Yes, Calvinists will say that the offer is made to all. But what kind of an offer is it when there are those, according to Calvinism, who can not possibly understand or respond to the gospel? It certainly does not sound like an offer God, who the Bible defines as LOVE and JUST, would make to His created beings. It would be like someone standing in front of a paraplegic laying on the floor offering all the money needed for surgery to restore their physical ability, yet insisting they walk over to get it all the while knowing they have no ability to do so.

An interesting comparison. But different for the simple reason that the paraplegic is not there because of a curse you justly put on him for his sins.

Men are. God is not unjust to demand that fallen men respond to the gospel. He has every right to do so.

While it is true that (according to Romans) the wrath of God is being revealed even now through His abandoning most men to unbelief - it is also true that they full well deserve such abandonment to what comes naturally to their fallen nature because of their sins.

Their rejection of the gospel is but one more grievous sin to add to their personal list.

Because of their hard and impenitent heart they are storing up wrath for themselves on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. Romans 2:5

RisenInJesus said:
In the scriptures, though, it is faith alone.

We all agree that justification is by faith alone.

But you simply will not agree that the exercise of faith by certain people was predestined from before the foundation of the world to be exercised.

You also don't seem to acknowledge that God is the author of our faith and that only some are given the special grace needed to exercise saving faith.

RisenInJesus said:
BTW, although, I don't necessarily agree with you on various points, I do appreciate your respectful demeanor and the way you express your views. Thank you.

Thank you as well.

This is not always the case with me.

I often get particularly surely when people will not differentiate between what they think Reformed doctrine "amounts to" and what Reformed theologians actually believe and teach.

There is a huge difference sometimes. Failure to acknowledge it results in them kicking "straw men" around rather than just discussing the matter civilly and comparing notes.

Some people in this forum are worse than others at this and I can get just as nasty toward them as they can toward me (not that that's a thing to brag about).

Jennifer Rothnie · Sep 14, 2017

lesliedellow said:
By recognising that the pronoun "us" or "you" (depending upon the translation) refers to the people being addressed - i.e. the Church.

It makes little sense to restrict the pronoun 'you-ward' in II Pet 3:9 to the church alone:

"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

Why would He be patient towards those who have already repented and are guaranteed eternal life because He doesn't wish any to perish? Why would Christians have any need to repent again of sin and turn to Christ?

Paul could perhaps be specifically referencing Gentile believers - that God's longsuffering has allowed the Gentiles to be brought into the fold (Such as referred to in Rom 11:11-12) - but even if that was what was mind, it would not negate the parallel scriptures showing that God desires all men to repent and be saved:

"First of all, then, I urge that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be offered on behalf of all men, or kings and all those in authority, so that we may lead tranquil and quiet lives in all godliness and dignity. This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus who gave himself as a ransom for all people.."
I Tim 2:1-6

Here we see clearly that we are to offer prayer on behalf of all men, including heathen kings in authority (many of whom never come to faith), because God desires all men to be saved. Furthermore, God gave Christ as the mediator between God and man, for Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all people.

"Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?" Ezek 18:23

"Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!" Ezek 18:30-32

God isn't saying here, 'I only desire that some of you Israelites repent after I give you a new heart and spirit.' He desires them all to live, so commands they all repent and get a new heart and spirit (which we know can only be done by faith, not works.)

"So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." II Cor 5:16-21

Here Paul is building off the concept of Christ as mediator between God and man and telling Christians, who have been reconciled to Christ, to be ambassadors for Christ and spread that ministry of reconciliation. He ends with what the exact appeal is: imploring non-believers to be reconciled to God, for God made sinless Jesus to bear their transgressions so they might be the righteousness of God.

He doesn't tell them that God only wants a select few to be reconciled, or to spread a message that a select few should await reconciliation (or already have been reconciled), etc.

So TULIP is hyper calvinist. What would your version of low Calvinism look like? Arminianism?

I will guess he is referring to 4-point Calvinism/Amyraldism, which rejects the L (limited atonement) of TULIP.

This is an example of how systemized theories of man can't just assert themselves as true or point to a few verses that they claim in support, but need to support their claims from the whole of scripture. There are many variants on Calvinism, variants on Arminianism, other systemized theories like Molinism, etc. - and to add to that the many Christians who do not hold to any such systemized theory or are undecided.

To add to this confusion even more, often terms are used in very different ways (born again, predestination, depravity, sufficient grace, etc.) - so these terms need to go back to scripture to be defined and care needs to be taken when any definition deviates or gets ran through man's philosophy.

lesliedellow · Sep 14, 2017

Jennifer Rothnie said:
It makes little sense to restrict the pronoun 'you-ward' in II Pet 3:9 to the church alone:

If I wrote you a letter, and used the word "you" in it, would you assume that I was addressing you, or the rest of the world besides?

I usually skip over walls of text.

Si_monfaith · Sep 14, 2017

2tim_215 said:
It's grace. I believe that there's a misunderstanding regarding predestination: God didn't "predestine" who'd be saved and who wouldn't (if I understand what you're asking) with perhaps a few excepted cases, what he predestined is that there would be some who'd choose salvation which is offered to everyone (and conversely) there would be some who wouldn't (which of course he'd know before hand).

I think that the doctrine of predestination is one of the great lies that Satan uses to convince people that they've already been predestined to go to hell so why should they bother and might as well serve him. I remember there was a time when I thought that I might be predestined for hell and eventually decided that even if I were, that I'd hate the devil with all my heart regardless and would never serve him.

Who produces faithin man? God or man himself?

Si_monfaith · Sep 14, 2017

RisenInJesus said:
Well, I afraid that I disagree with your charge of a false dichotomy since I believe the Calvinistic order of salvation to be unbiblical in the first place. A person is not choosing between one part or another of the very same ordo salutis, as according to Calvinsim, but between the biblical ordo salutis or the Calvinistic order.

Rom 9:15

The ordo salutis commences from God's will in Bible and not from man's faith.

Si_monfaith · Sep 14, 2017

Tolworth John said:
As the bible says, It is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not of yourself, it is the gift of God, not by works so that no one can boast. eph 2:8+9

By that verse it is both faith and predestination.

Which is first? Faith or predestination? According to Ephesians 2: 8, 9.

Si_monfaith · Sep 14, 2017

SBC said:
First of all -
I believe SIN is a TRANSGRESSION ONLY Against God.
And that SIN can ONLY thus, BE forgiven BY God.
And that SIN forgiven By God, IS because a person ASKED God to forgive him.
And ONCE a person ASKS, God forgives ALL Sin of truthful believers.
And ONCE forgiven, the man CAN NEVER AGAIN "be" or "commit" Sin against God.

I believe TRESPASSES are TRANSGRESSIONS of Mankind AGAINST Mankind.
And Mankind CAN or NOT forgive trespasses.
And Mankind CAN or NOT be forgiven of his own trespasses.
Scripture teaches that men are to forgive trespasses.
Scripture teaches that men WHO DO forgive trespasses, God will also forgive their trespasses of their trespasses against men.

Salvation is dependent upon Faith.

Predestination is simply God KNOWING our choices BEFORE we do.

Predestination affords God having PREPARATIONS in PLACE, since remember all things were created before mankind.

God Bless,
SBC

SBC said:
Salvation is dependent upon Faith.

So who produces faith in man? God or man?

Reference 1Timothy 1:14

Faith or Predestination

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