Faith or Predestination

Marvin Knox

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I think Calvinism started out with a noble idea of preserving God's sovereignty, but I often wonder if the Calvinist has fully thought through the implications of their beliefs as it relates to the character and attributes of God?
I can't speak for all of them.

But I have.
 
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Marvin Knox

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This thread actually is about Calvinism in that it is about the what I believe to be the differences between the soteriology and the biblical gospel verses the gospel of Reformed/Calvinistic theology or T.UL.I.P.
I don't see any conflict between the biblical meaning of predestination with faith or salvation, but see a definite conflict between the Calvinistic distorted view of predestination as it relates to faith and salvation and that of the Bible
I would certainly agree with the second paragraph - with some nuance of course.

But the thread itself is not about Calvinism vs. faith. It is about predestination vs. faith.

It is true that predestination is often associated with Calvinism in particular. But it really shouldn't be. It should be associated with what the Bible teaches about the omniscience of God as related to His providence.

The latter is a subject which all students of scripture should be conversant in - not just Calvinists.

If you leave a doctrine to be developed by a particular group - you run the risk of just being able to argue against the error in their doctrine whereas you should be able to explain the biblical doctrine for yourself.

This is the situation we find ourselves in with these online intramural debates among amateur theologians.

And no - foreknowledge alone does not explain predestination - no matter how many people just sluff it off to that.
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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Like the man said, there is no contradiction between predestination and salvation through faith.

One correction to something you said in your post though. Calvinists believe and teach that salvation is a gift of God available to all men who will but believe.

Salvation is not received by predestination as you say.

While it is certainly true that only those predestined to believe and elected to be the recipients of His grace will believe and be saved through faith - neither predestination nor election saves anyone - only a personal faith.

The OP wasn't about a contradiction between predestination, as scripture describes, and salvation through faith, but on the apparent for those who claim salvation is *through* predestination as well as faith.

If Calvinists hold that only those predestined will have faith, and indeed that those predestined must have faith, then the offer of salvation is not truly given to all men with sufficient grace to respond - which contradicts with a number of scriptures [II Cor 5:15, Jn 6:51, I Jn 2:2, Jn 12:32, I Tim 2:5-6, Heb 2:9, Jn 16:8-9, Jn 1:9, I Tim 1:10-11, Jn 6:28-29, Rom 10:17, I Jn 4:9-10, etc]. It also leads to the idea that the main determinant of salvation is predestination (since the predestined will get faith and be saved, while the non-predestined cannot) and not faith.

But then, if I understand the theory, Calvinists do not hold that Jesus died for all men or even that salvation follows faith, but rather that Jesus only died for the predestined elect and actually achieved both their faith and salvation at the cross. (This might not be a view held by all Calvinists, though? I know 4-point Calvinists do believe Jesus died for all including the non-elect, at least.)
 
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TaylorSexton

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Then according to Calvinism it is actually only by predestination that one is saved, because if one is not predestined or chosen for salvation to start with, then according to Calvinism "faith" will never occur. So without predestination, which is devoid of faith in Calvinism, salvation is not possible.

Wow.
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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How did you read that out of what I said? Faith can only arise through the grace of God. The alternative is a heresy called Pelagianism. Calvinism merely takes that fact to its logical conclusion, whereas Arminianism tries to dodge it.

Again, non-Calvinists (whether Arminian or not) are NOT engaging in Pelagianism. Please understand what Pelagianism and semi-pelagianism are before going around accusing people of advocating for works-based salvation or claiming that if you believe one can respond in faith to the gospel one is claiming man 'merits' salvation somehow (vs. salvation being the unmerited gift in response to that faith because that is the method God planned before time began.)
What are Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism?

Pelagianism is an ancient heresy going back to the 5th century, started by the monk Pelagian. He claimed that man was basically good and had the ability to achieve salvation through works and the law. The beliefs of Pelagian were systematized by his disciple Caelestius, and it is this systematized version that has come to be known as Pelagianism.

The views of Pelagianism:

1) Adam was created liable to death, and would have died, whether he had sinned or not. [While Adam's sin led to spiritual death, not immediate physical death, scripture heavily implies that if Adam had not sinned he could have ate of the tree of life as God had allowed, and lived forever (Gen 3:22). As such, the idea that he 'would have died' is speculation at best.]

2) The sin of Adam hurt himself only and not the human race. [Scripture says the entire human race was punished for the sin of Adam, as well as the Earth itself (Gen 3:17-19).]

3) Infants at their birth are in the same state as Adam before the fall. [Scripture never claims this. While infants are as sinless as a human will ever be, this does not mean they -are- sinless or that they escape the penalty of Adam's sin. See What is original sin?.]

4) Neither by the death nor fall of Adam does the whole race of man die, nor by the resurrection of Christ the whole of men rise again. [This is perhaps the most blatantly heretical of Pelagian's beliefs. Scripture states that "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive".]
Basically, Pelagian believed that man could, potentially, be perfectly righteous and thus achieve salvation. [Yet scripture says that -no man- could achieve perfection via the law (Rom 8:3, Rom 4:13-15), and hence Christ was necessary. Only Christ was perfectly sinless and righteous. While God often called people who devoutly followed Him righteous ((Luke 1:5-6), this is not the same thing as saying that those people had achieved salvation via their own merit. Furthermore, while it is true not all men will be saved, all who have faith in Christ (or faith in the promise, such as the OT saints), will rise again.]

5) The Law introduces men into the kingdom of heaven in the same way as the Gospel does. [While the law did act as a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ, it has no ability to save us (Gal 1:6).]

6) Even before the coming of Christ there were some men sinless. [Only Christ was completely sinless. Men cannot be perfect via the law (Gal 3:10-14)]

Semi-Pelagianism is a spin-off system which also had its start in the 5th century by Casseian at Marseilles as an attempted compromise between the views of Augustine and Pelagian.

The basics of semi-pelagianism are:

1) The sanctifying grace that man receives from God can be merited by human effort, unaided by grace [Contrary to the whole of the gospel, wherein salvation itself is by grace through faith].
2) The beginning of faith can be accomplished by human will alone [Contrary to scripture, wherein faith comes by hearing the gospel and by the sacrifice of Christ, not by the works or intellect of man].
3) One a man has been justified, grace is no longer needed [Contrary to scripture, as God is always at work in us, disciplining us, blessing us, strengthening us, and countless other graces. The seal of the Holy Spirit as a down-payment of our future inheritance is also an act of grace].

There are currently very few people/fringe groups which hold to either of those heresies. Accusing non-Calvinists of advocating either does not contribute to the discussion.

(I am not Arminian so I apologize if I am getting the specifics wrong here)

- Arminianism holds that man is totally depraved (unlike Pelagianism, like Calvinism), but that God in His common grace has given all men the ability to respond in faith to the conviction brought by Christ's death (unlike Calvinism that believes God only gives some the ability to respond in faith, or Semi-Pelagianism which holds that man can choose faith irregardless of God or Christ's sacrifice).

- Arminianism, unlike Pelagianism, holds that God elects people to salvation based on their response to the gospel (unlike Calvinism, which holds God picks out certain individuals based on nothing but His choice itself, regardless of faith, or Semi-Pelagianism that erroneously holds that man can achieve sanctifying grace through his own effort/works alone)

What is Arminianism, and is it biblical?
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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I can't speak for all of them.

But I have.

Unfortunately, the Calvinist TULIP teaching seems to diminish the sovereignty of God. If I understand the theory correctly, God can't delegate (or rather, if he does it's a mere illusion as God is still doing every task Himself); God can't set up natural laws and expect them to continue - they are just an illusion for the sake of man (He has to push around every molecule Himself, every dice roll, every wave of the sea etc. because He can't just command them and expect them to obey); and God can't deal with finite variables because any variable would derail His plan (hence He has to choose who will be saved and make sure they get faith through some method.)

Perhaps I am misunderstanding that and not all Calvinists believe such - but from the many debates on the subject I have engaged in, those are common threads. Quite a number seem to hold that God can't deal with any variables (even when they are finite) to the point where He actually ensures that some people will commit moral evil and even directs it Himself.

The picture Scripture paints of God's sovereignty is not so phobic of delegation and variables as they are marks of His wisdom and power:

#1 God, by His sovereign will, gave man the ability to choose whether to obey or disobey. (Deut 30:19, Josh 34:19, etc.) For salvation, man can either respond to the gospel in belief or refuse to believe it. (Mk 16:16)

#2 God, by His sovereign power and decree, set up boundaries/limits in which people can act. Some of these boundaries are physical, such as God creating us with opposable thumbs, but the inability to fly or breath in vacuum. Some are mental, such as granting man the ability to reason higher than the animals, but not giving man the complete and perfect knowledge of God. Some of these boundaries are moral, such as fallen man's inability to be perfectly righteous, but that man can still follow the laws of God written on their hearts (Rom 2:14-15.)

Due to these boundaries, man cannot physically work for salvation or accomplish his own deliverance. He cannot reach salvation via his own mental enlightenment. And man cannot morally achieve salvation via his own righteousness. In all these ways, it is impossible.

However, God in His sovereign mercy, knew that man could not achieve salvation within the limits he had bounded man and so created another way - faith! Rather than man having to be righteous, an impossibility, Christ would come to be righteousness on their behalf, and God would credit that righteousness to the account of any who would believe.

"However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5

"For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8-9
What does it mean that it is by grace we have been saved, through faith, and that this is not of ourselves but is the gift of God?

#3 God, by His character and wisdom, set the standard of righteousness. (Rom 1:17, Psalm 18:30, Eph 2:3, Psalm 119:3, Deut 32:4, Psalm 145:17, Isaiah 5:16, Isaiah 51:6, Dan 9:14, Jer 9:24.) If God hadn't reached out to man with a way to be declared righteous through faith, not works, then salvation would have been impossible for man. Fortunately for us, He did!

#4 God, in His sovereign wisdom and power, set the rules by which deliverance, forgiveness, and pardon are obtained (Num 25:22-29, Jer 26:1-6, II Chron 7:14, John 3:16, Heb 10:11-18, Luke 4:14-21, Heb 9:22, Matt 5:29, Isa 45:22-25) Mercifully, God offers forgiveness and deliverance to those who place their faith in Christ!

#5 God, by His sovereign power and grace, gave us everything necessary to respond to the gospel in faith through the sufficient work of Christ on the cross.

He gave us:

- Christ; God revealed. (Heb 1:3, I Cor 1:4-5, John 4:10, Jn 12:46-32, Jn 8:12)

"There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man." Jn 1:9

Without this revelation of Christ, limited man would have never known the way of salvation.

- The offer of salvation to all people in Christ: (Titus 2:11, John 12:3-33, Matt 4:12-17, Psalm 67:1-3)

Without this gracious offer, none would have the opportunity to be saved.

- Christ delivered to death that we might live: (Rom 4:25, Gal 2:20-21, Rom 5:6-8)

Without Christ's work on the cross, there would be no atonement possible.

- The gospel proclaimed (Col 1:23, Rom 10:17, Gal 3:2-5, Heb 4:2)

Without the good news and testimony of the gospel, we would have nothing to respond to in faith.

- The general conviction of the Spirit (John 16:7-11, I Cor 14:24-25)

Without this conviction of sin, we would not know our need for a Saviour.

- The testimony and light of the church (I Cor 10:33, Matt 5:13-14)

Without this continued grace, most men would never hear of Christ.

****

See also:
How are we to understand the sequence and part that man plays in his salvation? (sequence/part man plays in salvation)
Is God sovereign or do we have a free will? (is God sovereign or do we have free will)
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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The one and only valid reason for being a Calvinist is that the Bible seems to teach it. Any other consideration is extraneous.

Please back this up with scripture and not mere assertion, as many scriptures have been offered up in this thread that would seem to contradict it.
 
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Marvin Knox

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If Calvinists hold that only those predestined will have faith, and indeed that those predestined must have faith, then the offer of salvation is not truly given to all men with sufficient grace to respond - which contradicts with a number of scriptures [II Cor 5:15, Jn 6:51, I Jn 2:2, Jn 12:32, I Tim 2:5-6, Heb 2:9, Jn 16:8-9, Jn 1:9, I Tim 1:10-11, Jn 6:28-29, Rom 10:17, I Jn 4:9-10, etc].
The offer of salvation is made to all men. Any Calvinist will tell you that.

Sufficient grace to respond is another matter.

I took the time to look up all of the scriptures you provided. Most of them do not contradict the idea that God must give additional grace to fallen men in order for them to respond to the gospel.

But they do contradict the next doctrine of the Calvinists which you address.
But then, if I understand the theory, Calvinists do not hold that Jesus died for all men
I totally agree that the doctrine of limited atonement as usually taught by 5-point Calvinists is not biblical and you are right in saying so.

It is contradicted by some of the scriptures you provided and it is contradicted by both me personally and John Calvin Himself.

On this subject we can agree wholeheartedly.

But limited atonement is not predestination and predestination does not contradict salvation by faith.
.... or even that salvation follows faith, but rather that Jesus only died for the predestined elect and actually achieved both their faith and salvation at the cross. (This might not be a view held by all Calvinists, though? I know 4-point Calvinists do believe Jesus died for all including the non-elect, at least.)
Salvation does follow faith as any Calvinist worth his salt will tell you.

But you are right. Not all Calvinists believe the atonement or it's accomplishments were only for the elect. That is a doctrine rejected by many Reformed theologians including myself and John Calvin.

What makes it difficult to maintain a defense of the correct doctrines taught in Calvinism is the modern day inclusion of at least one doctrine which is absolutely not biblical.

It is a lot like trying to defend "non-Calvinism" and having to defend all of the incorrect teachings of the so called non-Calvinists. I'm sure you could not and would not attempt to do that - as much as you agree with "non-Calvinism". (I hope that makes sense.)

Calvinism was definitely mentioned in the OP. But, like I said, predestination and Calvinism are not synonymous and the bottom line of the OP, as I read it, was "Is it faith or predestination?" - which is a false dichotomy. It's not either or. It's both.
 
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Hammster

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Please back this up with scripture and not mere assertion, as many scriptures have been offered up in this thread that would seem to contradict it.
If you aren't aware of the scriptures used in Reformed Theology, you should familiarize yourself with them. There's plenty of online resources.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Unfortunately, the Calvinist TULIP teaching seems to diminish the sovereignty of God. If I understand the theory correctly, God can't delegate (or rather, if he does it's a mere illusion as God is still doing every task Himself); God can't set up natural laws and expect them to continue - they are just an illusion for the sake of man (He has to push around every molecule Himself, every dice roll, every wave of the sea etc. because He can't just command them and expect them to obey); and God can't deal with finite variables because any variable would derail His plan (hence He has to choose who will be saved and make sure they get faith through some method.)

Perhaps I am misunderstanding that and not all Calvinists believe such - but from the many debates on the subject I have engaged in, those are common threads. Quite a number seem to hold that God can't deal with any variables (even when they are finite) to the point where He actually ensures that some people will commit moral evil and even directs it Himself.

The picture Scripture paints of God's sovereignty is not so phobic of delegation and variables as they are marks of His wisdom and power:

#1 God, by His sovereign will, gave man the ability to choose whether to obey or disobey. (Deut 30:19, Josh 34:19, etc.) For salvation, man can either respond to the gospel in belief or refuse to believe it. (Mk 16:16)

#2 God, by His sovereign power and decree, set up boundaries/limits in which people can act. Some of these boundaries are physical, such as God creating us with opposable thumbs, but the inability to fly or breath in vacuum. Some are mental, such as granting man the ability to reason higher than the animals, but not giving man the complete and perfect knowledge of God. Some of these boundaries are moral, such as fallen man's inability to be perfectly righteous, but that man can still follow the laws of God written on their hearts (Rom 2:14-15.)

Due to these boundaries, man cannot physically work for salvation or accomplish his own deliverance. He cannot reach salvation via his own mental enlightenment. And man cannot morally achieve salvation via his own righteousness. In all these ways, it is impossible.

However, God in His sovereign mercy, knew that man could not achieve salvation within the limits he had bounded man and so created another way - faith! Rather than man having to be righteous, an impossibility, Christ would come to be righteousness on their behalf, and God would credit that righteousness to the account of any who would believe.

"However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5

"For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8-9
What does it mean that it is by grace we have been saved, through faith, and that this is not of ourselves but is the gift of God?

#3 God, by His character and wisdom, set the standard of righteousness. (Rom 1:17, Psalm 18:30, Eph 2:3, Psalm 119:3, Deut 32:4, Psalm 145:17, Isaiah 5:16, Isaiah 51:6, Dan 9:14, Jer 9:24.) If God hadn't reached out to man with a way to be declared righteous through faith, not works, then salvation would have been impossible for man. Fortunately for us, He did!

#4 God, in His sovereign wisdom and power, set the rules by which deliverance, forgiveness, and pardon are obtained (Num 25:22-29, Jer 26:1-6, II Chron 7:14, John 3:16, Heb 10:11-18, Luke 4:14-21, Heb 9:22, Matt 5:29, Isa 45:22-25) Mercifully, God offers forgiveness and deliverance to those who place their faith in Christ!

#5 God, by His sovereign power and grace, gave us everything necessary to respond to the gospel in faith through the sufficient work of Christ on the cross.

He gave us:

- Christ; God revealed. (Heb 1:3, I Cor 1:4-5, John 4:10, Jn 12:46-32, Jn 8:12)

"There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man." Jn 1:9

Without this revelation of Christ, limited man would have never known the way of salvation.

- The offer of salvation to all people in Christ: (Titus 2:11, John 12:3-33, Matt 4:12-17, Psalm 67:1-3)

Without this gracious offer, none would have the opportunity to be saved.

- Christ delivered to death that we might live: (Rom 4:25, Gal 2:20-21, Rom 5:6-8)

Without Christ's work on the cross, there would be no atonement possible.

- The gospel proclaimed (Col 1:23, Rom 10:17, Gal 3:2-5, Heb 4:2)

Without the good news and testimony of the gospel, we would have nothing to respond to in faith.

- The general conviction of the Spirit (John 16:7-11, I Cor 14:24-25)

Without this conviction of sin, we would not know our need for a Saviour.

- The testimony and light of the church (I Cor 10:33, Matt 5:13-14)

Without this continued grace, most men would never hear of Christ.

****

See also:
How are we to understand the sequence and part that man plays in his salvation? (sequence/part man plays in salvation)
Is God sovereign or do we have a free will? (is God sovereign or do we have free will)
I quite likely agree with much of this post even as I disagree with some of it as being, as it were, "straw men".

But as I promised before - my response to your 2nd to the last post (#63) is all I have time to do justice to.

In time I may respond to the 2nd post (#64) separately. We'll see. It may well get lost in the shuffle. That's the risk you'll run from here on out when you direct multiple posts in a row to me.:)

By the way - links to articles are nice for people to have provided for them. Some, I suppose, may even take the time to read them. But, in all honesty, they are probably wasted on me here.

If you want to post them for the sake of others who may be reading along of course, go right ahead.

I just doubt that there is any information in them which I have not already considered many times over.

Scriptures, of course, I will read when you post them as you have been doing all along.
 
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InterestedApologist

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If you aren't aware of the scriptures used in Reformed Theology, you should familiarize yourself with them. There's plenty of online resources.

Jennifer has taken the time to defend her position with scripture. You are taking the counter point but are unwilling to substantiate it. Why?
 
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InterestedApologist

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Wow what? So far the only addition you have added to the discussion would seem to be sarcasm or complaints about the wording of the OP. If you disagree with a post, why not present a case for your position? It would certainly be more beneficial than your current approach.
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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Just as I said.

"Man is rightly held responsible for those choices both good and bad."

However, the passage does not address predestination.

I just noticed that you replied to my signature line. That's not actually part of the post. It's just something that automatically shows at the end.

I wasn't replying to your post, just quoting it for emphasis, because I liked it.
 
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TaylorSexton

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Wow what? So far the only addition you have added to the discussion would seem to be sarcasm or complaints about the wording of the OP. If you disagree with a post, why not present a case for your position? It would certainly be more beneficial than your current approach.

I've just been amazed at the general ineptness generated by this thread. That's all.

At the present moment, however, I am amazed at your accusatory hostility toward someone you don't even know. For a person who professes Christ, that, perhaps, is even more amazing that anything else here.

Good night.
 
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InterestedApologist

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I've just been amazed at the general ineptness generated by this thread. That's all.

At the present moment, however, I am amazed at your accusatory hostility toward someone you don't even know. For a person who professes Christ, that, perhaps, is even more amazing that anything else here.

Good night.

No hostility from me, more an admonishment if anything. If you have a counter opinion, it would be genuinely good to hear it. Instead, you have denegrated everyone in this thread by labeling their posts inept, all while attacking me for daring to call your posts sarcastic! You have even called my very faith into question! Oh the irony....
 
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TaylorSexton

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...you have denegrated everyone in this thread by labeling their posts inept...

Where did I say every post here is inept? Did I not use the word "general"? I merely said that this thread has generated some ineptness—which it has, beginning with Post #1, which I demonstrated (and to which, it should be noted, I have received no reply). I was merely commenting that the fact that this thread, built on a fallacy, still continues, amazes me. Is that such a grievous sin?

...while attacking me for daring to call your posts sarcastic!

Where did I attack you? Your comment toward me was aggressive and hostile. Pointing that out is no attack. You know these are perilous times when offenders, upon being called out, cry foul.

You have even called my very faith into question!

No I didn't. I merely said that it is amazing that someone who professes faith in Christ would speak in such a way—which it is. I never questioned your faith. In fact, I assumed your genuine faith; otherwise, my comment makes no sense. You should read more carefully and sympathetically. It's a good and healthy practice.

——————————

Regardless, it is more than apparent that you do not want me here. I will respect that desire, friend. I can assure you that this thread will end where the rest of them have: fruitless chatter, godless talk, and divided brethren. That's all places like Christian Forums are really good for, in my experience, because that's all they seem to accomplish.

Good-bye, and best of luck.
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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If you aren't aware of the scriptures used in Reformed Theology, you should familiarize yourself with them. There's plenty of online resources.

I am quite familiar with many of the scripture passages referred to in support of the reformed tradition - however I have not found that those verses prove Calvinism, nor that they adequately explain the many scriptures which contradict TULIP.

Almost any theory can come up with 'support verses' but that is not the same as proving a theory the most reasonable or well-supported (just look at all the different views in eschatology, for example.)

Any theory that claims to be 'what the Bible teaches' needs to present the supporting references *and* show how they clearly support the theory to the exclusion of other reasonable explanations, as well as show that it truly is harmonious with other scriptures that on the surface seem to contradict.

Basically, your support needs to be equivalent to the strength of your claim. Mere assertion of something does not prove, or even support, that 'the Bible teaches' a specific theory of man.
 
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RisenInJesus

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I would certainly agree with the second paragraph - with some nuance of course.

But the thread itself is not about Calvinism vs. faith. It is about predestination vs. faith.

It is true that predestination is often associated with Calvinism in particular. But it really shouldn't be. It should be associated with what the Bible teaches about the omniscience of God as related to His providence.

The latter is a subject which all students of scripture should be conversant in - not just Calvinists.

If you leave a doctrine to be developed by a particular group - you run the risk of just being able to argue against the error in their doctrine whereas you should be able to explain the biblical doctrine for yourself.

This is the situation we find ourselves in with these online intramural debates among amateur theologians.

And no - foreknowledge alone does not explain predestination - no matter how many people just sluff it off to that.
I believe one error of Calvinism is equating predestination with salvation, whereas the scriptures do not do so. In the the scriptures the point of predestination is that God has determined beforehand that all believers, whoever places their faith in Christ, are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. No where do the scriptures teach that God determines who will have salvation to eternal life or who will not have that opportunity, but instead go on to eternal damnation.
 
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I am quite familiar with many of the scripture passages referred to in support of the reformed tradition - however I have not found that those verses prove Calvinism, nor that they adequately explain the many scriptures which contradict TULIP.
Then don't make a challenge of Reformed Theology as if there's no scripture to back it up. It's disingenuous. Disagreeing with the scripture is not the same as not having any.
 
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