Need help, seriously questioning.

Dkh587 · Sep 13, 2017

tampasteve said:
Actually while the people of Israel never were eliminated, the nation was several times, and was only reformed recently. Israel as a people never died, true. One must read Isaiah as a whole, not lift out the particular chapter in question.

“But you, O Israel, My servant, Jacob, you whom I have chosen, offspring of Abraham who loved Me…and to whom I shall say: ‘You are my servant’ – I have chosen you and not rejected you.” (Isaiah 41:8-9)

“But hear now Jacob, My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen!” (Isaiah 44:1)

“Remember these things, Jacob and Israel, for you are My servant: I fashioned you to be My servant: Israel do not forget Me!” (Isaiah 44:21)

“..for the sake of My servant Jacob and Israel, My chosen one: I have proclaimed you by name…” (Isaiah 45:4)

“…say, the Lord has redeemed His servant Jacob.” (Isaiah 48:20)

“…You are my servant, Israel, in whom I take glory.” (Isaiah 49:3)

Out of context, it does seem that Israel(the nation) is being referred to.

Take a closer look at Isaiah 49. When it says Israel, its not talking about the nation, but rather 1 individual. I believe this is the Messiah talking. Look what he says:

Isaiah 49:1-6 NIV
Listen to me, you islands; hear this, you distant nations: Before I was born יהוה called me; from my mother’s womb he has spoken my name.
He made my mouth like a sharpened sword, in the shadow of his hand he hid me; he made me into a polished arrow and concealed me in his quiver.
He said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will display my splendor.”
But I said, “I have labored in vain; I have spent my strength for nothing at all.
Yet what is due me is in the hand of יהוה, and my reward is with my God.”
And now יהוה says— he who formed me in the womb to be his servant to bring Jacob back to him and gather Israel to himself, for I am honored in the eyes of יהוה and my God has been my strength— he says: “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”

Does it make more sense logically and theologically that the nation of Israel is gonna gather the nation of Israel, or that 1 singular person(the Mesisah) is gonna gather the nation of Israel back to God?

God even tells his servant that it's too small a thing for him to gather Israel - he is also gonna be a light to the nations.

The nation of Israel is not prophecied to bring itself back, but rather, the Messiah was prophecied to regather the tribes of Israel and shine the light for the Gentiles to have salvation. All right there in Isaiah 49

_-iconoclast-_ · Sep 13, 2017

tampasteve said:
Right now I am more on the thinking that Jesus may not have been the Messiah, but rather a Prophet whose teachings were meant to get the Jewish people back on track but after his crucifixion were hijacked by the Romans/Pagans and we now have Christianity taking many Pagan traditions and adding to the infancy narrative to prove a point from the Greco-Roman perspective....

Hello tampasteve God bless you.

I have not viewed or listened to lectures by Rabbi Tovia Singer. I would like to join the discussion.

Please excuse me

. Have you considered passages from Isaiah 53 re the messiah?

The Messiah will be rejected (Isaiah 53:3; Luke 13:34).
The Messiah will be killed as a vicarious sacrifice for the sins of His people (Isaiah 53:5–9; 2 Corinthians 5:21).
The Messiah will be silent in front of His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; 1 Peter 2:23).
The Messiah will be buried with the rich (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57–60).
The Messiah will be with criminals in His death (Isaiah 53:12; Mark 15:27).

Psalm 110:1
Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."

A messenger would prepare the way for Messiah Isaiah 40:3-5 Luke 3:3-6

The Messiah would be rejected by his own people. Psalm 69:8

The Messiah would be betrayed. Psalm 41:9
Zechariah 11:12-13 Luke 22:47-48
Matthew 26:14-16

Messiah's price money would be used to buy a potter's field. Zechariah 11:12-13 Matthew 27:9-10

Pslam 23?

Please excuse my inquisitive nature

, Is there a reason why you think the NT is unreliable?

Cheers

tampasteve · Sep 13, 2017

Dkh587 said:
Out of context, it does seem that Israel(the nation) is being referred to.

Take a closer look at Isaiah 49. When it says Israel, its not talking about the nation, but rather 1 individual. I believe this is the Messiah talking. Look what he says:

Does it make more sense logically and theologically that the nation of Israel is gonna gather the nation of Israel, or that 1 singular person(the Mesisah) is gonna gather the nation of Israel back to God?

God even tells his servant that it's too small a thing for him to gather Israel - he is also gonna be a light to the nations.

The nation of Israel is not prophecied to bring itself back, but rather, the Messiah was prophecied to regather the tribes of Israel and shine the light for the Gentiles to have salvation. All right there in Isaiah 49

You are interpolating the verses, a common mistake. There is no reason that Isiah 49 could not be about Israel as a people and a messianic prophesy as you are right, there are parts that clearly are about an individual and not the nation. However, that does not mean that we can read the same into Isiah 53. Isiah 52 goes straight in 53 and does not make a change like Isiah 49 is doing. Most Christian and Jewish scholars would agree that a major Messianic prophesy is the in-gathering of the Jewish people, something that did not happen with Jesus in the first coming.

Dkh587 · Sep 13, 2017

tampasteve said:
You are interpolating the verses, a common mistake. There is no reason that Isiah 49 could not be about Israel as a people and a messianic prophesy as you are right, there are parts that clearly are about an individual and not the nation. However, that does not mean that we can read the same into Isiah 53. Isiah 52 goes straight in 53 and does not make a change like Isiah 49 is doing. Most Christian and Jewish scholars would agree that a major Messianic prophesy is the in-gathering of the Jewish people, something that did not happen with Jesus in the first coming.

I can easily say you are interpolating scripture too. I think that's what you're doing. But that doesn't get anybody anywhere, does it?

Just be careful listening to anti-Messiahs like Tovia Singer. why not study the scriptures for yourself and not rely on so called "Jewish scholars" and anti-Messiahs like Tovia Singer to explain scripture to you?

tampasteve · Sep 13, 2017

_-iconoclast-_ said:
Hello tampasteve God bless you.

I have not viewed or listened to lectures by Rabbi Tovia Singer. I would like to join the discussion.

Please excuse me . Have you considered passages from Isaiah 53 re the messiah?

The Messiah will be rejected (Isaiah 53:3; Luke 13:34).
The Messiah will be killed as a vicarious sacrifice for the sins of His people (Isaiah 53:5–9; 2 Corinthians 5:21).
The Messiah will be silent in front of His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; 1 Peter 2:23).
The Messiah will be buried with the rich (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57–60).
The Messiah will be with criminals in His death (Isaiah 53:12; Mark 15:27).

Psalm 110:1
Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."

A messenger would prepare the way for Messiah Isaiah 40:3-5 Luke 3:3-6

The Messiah would be rejected by his own people. Psalm 69:8

The Messiah would be betrayed. Psalm 41:9
Zechariah 11:12-13 Luke 22:47-48
Matthew 26:14-16

Messiah's price money would be used to buy a potter's field. Zechariah 11:12-13 Matthew 27:9-10

Pslam 23?

Please excuse my inquisitive nature , Is there a reason why you think the NT is unreliable?

Cheers

Thank you for taking the time to reply! As for Isiah 53, there are a couple of posts just before this that I use to refute the "suffering servant" prophesy. They may or may not be definitive in your eyes. So, while I am not convinced it is about Jesus, I could be convinced of a dual prophesy with Jesus being one of them....but standing alone I cannot come to that conclusion.

As for the other prophesies they are hard to contend with as they are seen as prophesies of Jesus in light of the NT, standing on their own many/most Jewish people would not come to the conclusion that they are messianic prophesies, and that is one of my struggles. The NT has to be interpreted in light of the OT, not the other way around....

tampasteve · Sep 13, 2017

Dkh587 said:
I can easily say you are interpolating scripture too. I think that's what you're doing. But that doesn't get anybody anywhere, does it?

Just be careful listening to anti-Messiahs like Tovia Singer. why not study the scriptures for yourself and not rely on so called "Jewish scholars" and anti-Messiahs like Tovia Singer to explain scripture to you?

Partly because I cannot read Hebrew, Greek, or Aramaic, and many (most) of the translations available are unreliable in verses translated, particularly in regards to the Messiah or messianic prophesies. To be fair, Rabbi Singer is not anti-Christian, he is pro-Judaism. There really is a difference. That said, I know I need to be careful....but we also need to be careful not to blindly trust anyone on either side. It is possible, while distasteful to Christians, that the NT is incorrect, but the OT cannot be incorrect. Thus the OT has to be the bar to clear, not the other way around. Studying the scriptures on my own got me started on this path. There are issues with the NT, gospel resuresction and crucifixion accounts not matching, infancy dates not matching, quotes taken from the OT incorrectly...it is right there and the defenses seem a bit week so far....I just want to follow where G-d leads me, wherever that is. To do so one must read the scriptures, starting at the OT. If they take you to Jesus, great, but scripture interprets scripture, and my Isiah interpretations (truthfully, taken from Rabbi Singer) take the whole book into account, not one chapter. And thus lies the crux for me.....

Aryeh Jay · Sep 13, 2017

Dkh587 said:
I can easily say you are interpolating scripture too. I think that's what you're doing. But that doesn't get anybody anywhere, does it?

Just be careful listening to anti-Messiahs like Tovia Singer. why not study the scriptures for yourself and not rely on so called "Jewish scholars" and anti-Messiahs like Tovia Singer to explain scripture to you?

Are they so called “Jewish Scholars” because after thousands of years of studying the Hebrew Scriptures, in Hebrew no less, they did not reach the same conclusions as you?

Steve Petersen · Sep 13, 2017

Dkh587 said:
Just be careful listening to anti-Messiahs like Tovia Singer. why not study the scriptures for yourself and not rely on so called "Jewish scholars" and anti-Messiahs like Tovia Singer to explain scripture to you?

What? And rely on another man's interpretive tradition (namely, my own?)

Everyone has a paradigm they bring to the table. An honest person should at least be able to say 'I don't know' or 'I could be wrong.'

Dkh587 · Sep 13, 2017

Steve Petersen said:
What? And rely on another man's interpretation (namely, my own?)

Rely on the Holy Spirit rather than anti-Messiahs

Dkh587 · Sep 13, 2017

Aryeh Jay said:
Are they so called “Jewish Scholars” because after thousands of years of studying the Hebrew Scriptures, in Hebrew no less, they did not reach the same conclusions as you?

To me, they are so called "Jewish scholars" because that's just a title - anybody can claim to be a Jewish scholar.

I don't put weight in people just because they are "Jewish scholars". That's no reason to trust them. Many "Jewish scholars" are anti-Messiah.

Steve Petersen · Sep 13, 2017

Dkh587 said:
Rely on the Holy Spirit rather than anti-Messiahs

Erm..looking at Christian history, this has not worked out very well. We all think the HS is talking to us, but we still have hundreds of Christian denominations. Someone is confused, but I don't think it is the HS. It is the people who think they are hearing from him.

tampasteve · Sep 13, 2017

Dkh587 said:
Rely on the Holy Spirit rather than anti-Messiahs

To be fair, most are not "anti-Messiahs", most are rabidly pro-messiah....they are arguing against Jesus being the Jewish Messiah. I know what you are trying to say though, but it must be clarified; most Jewish people, and specifically Orthodox and Conservative Jewish people are anxiously awaiting the Messiah.

Dkh587 · Sep 13, 2017

tampasteve said:
To be fair, most are not "anti-Messiahs", most are rabidly pro-messiah....they are arguing against Jesus being the Jewish Messiah. I know what you are trying to say though, but it must be clarified; most Jewish people, and specifically Orthodox and Conservative Jewish people are anxiously awaiting the Messiah.

If someone denies that Jesus/Yeshua/Yahushua is the Messiah, then that person is anti-Messiah. Period.

I don't care if 50 million "jewish" people believe in *a* Messiah, if they deny that Jesus is THE Messiah, then they are anti-Messiah, because he is THE Messiah.

Dkh587 · Sep 13, 2017

Steve Petersen said:
Erm..looking at Christian history, this has not worked out very well. We all think the HS is talking to us, but we still have hundreds of Christian denominations. Someone is confused, but I don't think it is the HS. It is the people who think they are hearing from him.

don't the scriptures tell us to follow after the Holy Spirit?

Aryeh Jay · Sep 13, 2017

When I type in Anti-messiah to my search engine, Anti-Christ is the first thing to pop up. Are you saying that Jews in general are the Anti-Christ; Jews that don’t believe what you do about Isiah 53 are the Anti-Christ or just Tovia Singer is the Anti-Christ?

Ah, never mind, all Jews are the anti-Messiah. Good to know, I will have to try out my powers later today.

Steve Petersen · Sep 13, 2017

Dkh587 said:
If someone denies that Jesus/Yeshua/Yahushua is the Messiah, then that person is anti-Messiah. Period.

I don't care if 50 million "jewish" people believe in *a* Messiah, if they deny that Jesus is THE Messiah, then they are anti-Messiah, because he is THE Messiah.

1 john 4:2-3 is an argument against gnostics who believed that Messiah was a spirit who momentarily inhabited the body of Jesus. Thus they denied that Christ had 'come in the flesh.' This is not a blanket condemnation of those who do not believe in Jesus, but those who believe he was not Christ incarnated.

Steve Petersen · Sep 13, 2017

Dkh587 said:
don't the scriptures tell us to follow after the Holy Spirit?

How has that worked out in Christian history?

Dkh587 · Sep 13, 2017

Aryeh Jay said:
When I type in Anti-messiah to my search engine, Anti-Christ is the first thing to pop up. Are you saying that Jews in general are the Anti-Christ; Jews that don’t believe what you do about Isiah 53 are the Anti-Christ or just Tovia Singer is the Anti-Christ?

Anybody who denies that Jesus is the Messiah is *an* anti-Messiah. They are not *the* anti-Messiah. It Doesn't matter who they are.

1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that anti-Messiah shall come, even now are there many anti-Messiahs; whereby we know that it is the last time

1 John 2:22-23
Who is a liar but he that denieth that יהושוע is the Messiah?
He is anti-Messiah, that denieth the Father and the Son.
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father

Anybody denying the Son denies the Father

Anybody that denies that Jesus is the Messiah is a liar and anti-Messiah

Scripture is clear, my friends.

Dkh587 · Sep 13, 2017

Steve Petersen said:
How has that worked out in Christian history?

doesn't really matter and I don't care - I didn't ask about christian history.

tampasteve · Sep 13, 2017

Dkh587 said:
If someone denies that Jesus/Yeshua/Yahushua is the Messiah, then that person is anti-Messiah. Period.

I don't care if 50 million "jewish" people believe in *a* Messiah, if they deny that Jesus is THE Messiah, then they are anti-Messiah, because he is THE Messiah.

You can keep using the term as you please, but it really does not strengthen your argument. This would be especially a poor way to term it if you are trying to convert Jewish people - or someone leaning that way like me. But I am not anti-Messiah or anti-Jesus, or even anti-Messiah Jesus....I am searching for truth.

Perhaps let us all continue on with the subject rather than getting hung up on a particular term? I am not absolving myself from participating in the argument, I certainly did....but I don't think it is going anywhere.

Need help, seriously questioning.

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