Here's the most critical question for you ...

Oldmantook · Sep 8, 2017

Marvin Knox said:
Sorry also. It does no such thing.

"Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus." Rev. 14:12

No kidding.

No - of course not.
Where would you get such an idea?
Can you point to what I said which gave you that idea?

I have ignored no verse - let alone the one which I commented on here.

No one who has truly believed on the Lord will ever come into condemnation.

Anyone who takes the mark will be condemned.

Therefore no saint will take the Mark of the beast.

It's plain and simple logic.

Read my posts carefully. There is no reason to misunderstand what I have said.

Do the same with verses from scripture such as Rev. 14:12. There is no reason to misunderstand what it says and doesn't say.

From your reply we can ascertain that the saints are present, have the choice whether to accept the mark, and anyone who takes the mark is condemned but according to you, no saint will ever take the mark. I understand you perfectly as your logic is indeed plain - as in a plain example of the logical fallacy known as circular reasoning. Your theological premise that a genuine believer cannot lose salvation forces you to conclude that no saint is able to take the mark which exemplifies circular reasoning.
If no saint takes the mark then explain why the exhortation for the saints to persevere, keep the commandments and the faith is found in v.12? Explain how such an exhortation is found in this text if it is already a done deal and certainty that no saint will ever take the mark? The need for such an exhortation would be nonsensical given your view.

Furthermore, if no one who truly believes will ever be condemned as you claim, then explain how come Jesus commanded those in Matt 7:23 to depart from him? If these are not genuine believers but unbelievers, explain how it is possible for unbelievers to have the authority to use Jesus' name to do these things? If these are unbelievers, explain how come they did not experience the same fate as the sons of Sceva? If these are unbelievers explain how this is not an example of Satan dividing his house against itself? Explain away these questions if you can otherwise it's obvious that these were genuine believers. Jesus himself does not dispute that they did supernatural works IN YOUR NAME. Yet they were condemned by Jesus and commanded to depart because they practiced lawlessness which completely contradicts your notion that no true believers will ever come into condemnation. Jesus in v.21 stated that only those who do the will of my Father shall enter the kingdom of heaven. It's quite obvious that those believers referred to in this passage chose not to the will of the Father as they instead practiced lawlessness and worked inequity based on the testimony of Jesus himself. You can choose to believe that no true believer will ever be condemned but I prefer to believe Jesus' own testimony.

Marvin Knox · Sep 8, 2017

Oldmantook said:
From your reply we can ascertain that the saints are present, have the choice whether to accept the mark, and anyone who takes the mark is condemned but according to you, no saint will ever take the mark. I understand you perfectly as your logic is indeed plain - as in a plain example of the logical fallacy known as circular reasoning. Your theological premise that a genuine believer cannot lose salvation forces you to conclude that no saint is able to take the mark which exemplifies circular reasoning.

It is not circular reasoning to say that since no believer will ever come into condemnation after passing from death to life, and those who take the mark will be condemned logically demands that no believer takes the mark.

It is perfectly logical. Now if you don't believe that salvation is by grace or some other variation on the theme - you will not follow that reasoning.

That's fine with me.

Oldmantook said:
If no saint takes the mark then explain why the exhortation for the saints to persevere, keep the commandments and the faith is found in v.12? Explain how such an exhortation is found in this text if it is already a done deal and certainty that no saint will ever take the mark? The need for such an exhortation would be nonsensical given your view.

You might explain to me why we must preach the gospel if salvation is a "done deal" for the elect of God. The need for such preaching would be nonsensical given that view.

Oh that's right! You don't believe in election.

Well - I don't believe in salvation by works.

Oldmantook said:
Furthermore, if no one who truly believes will ever be condemned as you claim,

Correction - "as Jesus claims".

Oldmantook said:
how come Jesus commanded those in Matt 7:23 to depart from him?

Because He never knew them. Certainly it doesn't say that He once knew them and now is going to forget them.

Oldmantook said:
If these are not genuine believers but unbelievers, explain how it is possible for unbelievers to have the authority to use Jesus' name to do these things? If these are unbelievers, explain how come they did not experience the same fate as the sons of Sceva?

Maybe they did. The Lord doesn't say.

But He does say quite clearly that He never knew them.

Oldmantook said:
If these are unbelievers explain how this is not an example of Satan dividing his house against itself? Explain away these questions if you can otherwise it's obvious that these were genuine believers.

It is and it will not stand.

I have explained them and it is obvious they were not genuine believers. Jesus never knew them. This is IMO some of the easiest theology we could debate.

Oldmantook said:
Jesus himself does not dispute that they did supernatural works IN YOUR NAME. Yet they were condemned by Jesus and commanded to depart because they practiced lawlessness which completely contradicts your notion that no true believers will ever come into condemnation.

Speaking in the name of Jesus when you are not authorized through son ship is lawlessness and an abomination to the Lord.

Every human being is lawless in the sense that they do not keep every law. When they fail in keeping one law they fail in all.

Those who's life is not hidden in Christ and depend on keeping the law for salvation will fail and will be among the ones Christ calls "lawless".

Christ did not reject them for being such great sinners. He rejected them because He never knew them and they were by virtue of that status not part of His church or body.

If they were part of His church He would be their happy to do so advocate not their wrathful judge.

This is really basic stuff is it not?

The history of Christianity is filled with such things. Without debating the historicity of the movie "The Exorcist" - there is a prime example of people doing such things.

The scriptures do not say that miraculous things cannot be done by unbelievers in Jesus name. Judas ministry may or may not be a good example of such. But certainly these folks were.

It only teaches that if you do them they will not be credited to you as righteousness. For that Jesus must "know" you and justify you before God through your faith in His accomplishments at Calvary.

Oldmantook said:
Jesus in v.21 stated that only those who do the will of my Father shall enter the kingdom of heaven. It's quite obvious that those believers referred to in this passage chose not to the will of the Father as they instead practiced lawlessness and worked inequity based on the testimony of Jesus himself.

This is the will of the Father - that you believe in Him whom He has sent.

Saving faith is not calling Jesus "Lord". It is not doing miracles in His name. It is entering into His rest by believing in His saving grace.

Oldmantook said:
You can choose to believe that no true believer will ever be condemned but I prefer to believe Jesus' own testimony.

Me too.

"Truly, truly - I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes on Him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but has passed from death into life." John 5:24

BCsenior · Sep 9, 2017

Marvin Knox said:
You obviously have not done that - depending instead on your own righteousness to commend you to God on the day of judgment.
But good luck with presenting that on the day of judgment.

Good luck with ignoring the 15 NT verses which instruct us to
PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Some verses say those who practice righteousness are righteous!
See, I keep telling people here that you REJECT Scripture all of the time!

Marvin Knox · Sep 9, 2017

BCsenior said:
Good luck with ignoring the 15 NT verses which instruct us to
PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Some verses say those who practice righteousness are righteous!
See, I keep telling people here that you REJECT Scripture all of the time!

I don't need any such luck.

I have not ignored any verses which instruct us to practice righteousness.

BCsenior · Sep 9, 2017

Marvin Knox said:
I don't need any such luck.
I have not ignored any verses which instruct us to practice righteousness.

These verses indicate that this "practicing" is required
to KEEP your righteousness intact in the eyes of God.
I hope thou art practicing.
And this is probably my last reply to you.

Marvin Knox · Sep 9, 2017

BCsenior said:
These verses indicate that this "practicing" is required
to KEEP your righteousness intact in the eyes of God.
I hope thou art practicing.
And this is probably my last reply to you.

I have an advocate before God for when I am not living righteously enough.

He is also the one who justifies me in the eyes of God through my faith in the Work of Jesus Christ on my behalf.

Good luck with you self righteousness.

Remember - those those who point to their own righteousness and their works for the Lord done in His name may be told by Christ that He never knew them.

Faith is the "assurance" and the "evidenced" of things hoped for.

I have faith in my righteous status at the judgment. You only have a hope that you will manage to earn or keep that righteous status long enough to pass muster on that day.

As I see it - one is saving faith and the other is not.

This will probably be my last reply to you.

I hope to see you on the other side of this life. I just don't have much evidence or assurance (faith) that that will be the case - in spite of the fact that you are probably a fine person.

BCsenior · Sep 10, 2017

Here are some additional comments on 6 of the NT passages in the OP …

“If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter
into life maimed rather than having two hands and go to hell” (Mark 9:43)
Does Jesus go overboard in trying to express the incredible seriousness of sin?

“You will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures
to the end (until his death) will be saved (eternally).” (Matthew 10:22)
There are about 15 NT verses which teach this spiritual Truth above.
And, enduring in the faith until death includes …
• Not falling away during the times of severe persecution of Christians
• Not submitting to the incredible pressure of taking the dreaded mark of the beast
Both of these severe TESTS will be coming upon professing Christians soon!
Re: taking the mark, be sure you read the eternal consequences in Rev.13-14.

“Then when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full grown, brings forth (eternal) death.
Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.” (James 1:15-16)
Sin brings forth eternal death upon believers also, unless it is repented of!
“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)
Repentance includes all of the following: the sorrow over committing the sin,
the confessing it to God, the asking forgiveness for it, the stopping of doing it.

“In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest:
whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God” (1 John 3:10)
“He who practices righteousness is righteous” (1 John 3:7)
Many believers have been deceived by the gospel of hyper-grace, the “Me gospel”.
They have been deceived into believing that they have been made
FOREVER righteous because of what Jesus did for them on the Cross.
They have NOT been made FOREVER anything by God’s free gift of grace.
They have NOT been made FOREVER justified, righteous, sanctified, saved, etc.
NO GUARANTEES is what the NT teaches! … because …
We see that all of God’s blessings are CONDITIONAL – all throughout the whole Bible!
Warning: gifts can be taken back, seals can be broken, etc.
Because believers are required to do their part in their salvation.
They are required to co-operate with the precious Holy Spirit.
And the opposite of this is the most-deadly practicing of habitual (unrepentant) sin!

“And do NOT present your member as instruments of unrighteousness to sin,
but present yourselves to God … as instruments of righteousness to God.
… Do you not know that … you are that one’s slaves whom you obey,
whether (slaves) of sin leading to (eternal) death, OR
(slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness? … so now
present your bodies as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
… For the end of those things (past sins) is (eternal) death.
... For the wages of sin is (eternal) death,
but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:13—23)
Paul is writing to born-again believers in Rome (who are strangers to him).
He warns them: sinning, being slaves of sin, being unrighteous – leads to eternal death!
Attention: believers just do NOT understand Paul’s method of writing to the churches.
It is all about being tactful, so he will be welcome to visit them (and teach them more).
Paul mixes his warnings in amongst his MANY edifications, exhortations, blessings, etc.
And he leaves it up to the precious Holy Spirit to reveal the deep meaning of Scripture.
Warning: deceived believers are mistakenly taught to focus on the last line above,
and they just do not realize that all of God’s blessings are CONDITIONAL,
which is seen all throughout the whole entire Bible!

Believers are taught that passages such as the Romans 6 simply do NOT apply to them!
The churches do NOT want to get the troops upset …
because the troops come trooping in every Sunday with their tithes!
To be fair, some church leadership are not this way … they have just been
deceived by the greatest lair and deceiver in history, whose name is Satan!

Oldmantook · Sep 10, 2017

Marvin Knox said:
It is not circular reasoning to say that since no believer will ever come into condemnation after passing from death to life, and those who take the mark will be condemned logically demands that no believer takes the mark.

It's quite obvious that you don't even understand the definition of circular reasoning. FYI it is a type of reasoning in which the proposition is supported by the premise, which is supported by the proposition, creating a circle in reasoning where no useful information is being shared. Your proposition X (no believer will accept mark) is true because of your premise Y (no believer ever comes into condemnation). In other words, X is true because Y is true. But the reverse is also true in that Y is true because X is true; i.e. no believer is condemned because no believer will ever accept the mark. Your argument is thus circular and fallacious. I suggest that you bone up on your method of argumentation and logical fallacies in particular as it plainly exposes the weakness of your argument.

Marvin Knox said:
You might explain to me why we must preach the gospel if salvation is a "done deal" for the elect of God. The need for such preaching would be nonsensical given that view.

Obviously you can't even read the verse correctly. If it is a "done deal" why does this verse call for endurance, keeping the commandments and faith? You believe the exact opposite of what is states.

Marvin Knox said:
Well - I don't believe in salvation by works.

Another logical fallacy asserted by you which you have a bad habit of doing. Your red herring response states that I believe in salvation by works. FYI I believe in salvation by faith evidenced by good works. Faith and works go hand in hand as we were created to do good works (Eph 2:10) and works are the outward evidence of inward faith (Js 2:24). Faith + works = not true. Faith = works = true. Do me a favor and don't just make up things I don't believe in.

Marvin Knox said:
Because He never knew them. Certainly it doesn't say that He once knew them and now is going to forget them

I see you also make up your own definitions of what Jesus means. If you were more familiar with your Bible, you would know that Jesus himself plainly explains what he means by "never knew them." Jesus stated that he only knows those sheep who "listen" and "follow" him (Jn 10:27). Obviously those believers who work inequity and practice lawless do not listen and follow - therefore Jesus never knew them and they are commanded to depart. I suggest you allow the scriptures to interpret themselves instead of substituting your own opinion in place of them.

Marvin Knox said:
Maybe they did. The Lord doesn't say.

I didn't ask the Lord - I asked YOU. Your failure to reply with YOUR answer speaks volumes. Again, offer YOUR explanation how these people did the miraculous IN YOUR NAME since you claim they were unbelievers.

Marvin Knox said:
Speaking in the name of Jesus when you are not authorized through son ship is lawlessness and an abomination to the Lord.

What are your talking about? Your explanation is totally off subject. Every single believer is given the authority over the enemy (Lk 10:19). However not every believer is diligent and takes responsibility to be obedient and live a sanctified life. Authority is not the same thing as responsibility. The fact is unbelievers cannot do things in Jesus' name as you claim. If so, show me one example. Unbelievers may do the miraculous but they don't use Jesus' name. When they attempt to do so - such as the sons of Sceva - bad things happen.

Marvin Knox said:
This is the will of the Father - that you believe in Him whom He has sent.

Saving faith is not calling Jesus "Lord". It is not doing miracles in His name. It is entering into His rest by believing in His saving grace.

We both believe that belief is necessary however you neglect to take into account that obedience is also necessary (Heb 5:9). Not all Christians from the moment of belief continue on in obedience and righteousness.

Marvin Knox said:
Me too.

"Truly, truly - I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes on Him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but has passed from death into life." John 5:24

If you were familiar with Greek and had bothered to study this verse, you would well know that the word for "believes" is "pisteuōn" which is a present tense participle translated as "believing." One has passed from death to life as long as one is believING or continuing to believe. In the same way that one must continue to obey, the Christian must continue believing. If the believer ceases to believe and falls away from the faith, he/she incurs condemnation. Belief in the Bible is never strictly related to an aorist or one-time moment of belief in the past but requires ongoing belief. Those who no longer believe, apostatize from the faith, no longer abide and face condemnation.

Marvin Knox · Sep 10, 2017

Oldmantook said:
It's quite obvious that you don't even understand the definition of circular reasoning. FYI it is a type of reasoning in which the proposition is supported by the premise, which is supported by the proposition, creating a circle in reasoning where no useful information is being shared.

I do understand circular reasoning. It is obvious that you do not.

Oldmantook said:
Your proposition X (no believer will accept mark) is true because of your premise Y (no believer ever comes into condemnation). In other words, X is true because Y is true.

Absolutely correct.

If you believe what Jesus said (Y), you will believe X.

But - If you do not believe what Jesus said (Y), you may not believe X. Also if you don't believe X then you cannot believe what Jesus said (Y).

Note also that if you do not believe that no believer will receive the mark of the beast (X) - that of necessity means that you do not believe that no believer will come into condemnation (Y).

Oldmantook said:
But the reverse is also true in that Y is true because X is true; i.e. no believer is condemned because no believer will ever accept the mark. Your argument is thus circular and fallacious. I suggest that you bone up on your method of argumentation and logical fallacies in particular as it plainly exposes the weakness of your argument.

No - Y is not necessarily true because X is true. That's not a logical conclusion.

Just because believers didn't take the mark and be condemned because of it says nothing about believers perhaps being condemned for any one of a million other reasons. If God told us that the only case for condemnation in the history of Christianity was taking the mark of the beast, you would perhaps have a useful argument.

You need to bone up on you logic a bit.

Oldmantook said:
Obviously you can't even read the verse correctly. If it is a "done deal" why does this verse call for endurance, keeping the commandments and faith? You believe the exact opposite of what is states.

I can read just fine.

The done deal I refer to is election not eternal security. My statement to you was in response to your premise that it would be foolish for God to tell people to endure and keep the commandments if they were going to keep the commandments.

God asks us to accept and then preach the gospel even though the names of the elect have been written in the Book of Life since before the foundation of the world.

Likewise He extorts us to be holy even though we are predestined to be holy before Him in eternity future and even now through the advocacy of Jesus Christ our High Priest.

Your poor logic leads you to another wrong conclusion. It goes like this:

"If God asks saved people who are being ordered to take the mark of the beast (which would end in the condemnation of God) to keep the commandments and endure that must mean that some saved people will not keep the commandments and endure."

That is simply not a logical conclusion.

According to your judgement against God's ways (that it would be foolish of Him to exhort believers to obey Him which they will do anyway) is out of bounds. God's ways are not our ways.

God works through means to bring to past what He has predestined to occur - no matter if we are talking about salvation or holiness. This is rather basic systematic theology IMO.

But, you lacking a good base systematic theology as you do, I'm pretty sure you'll not get it or at least that you will argue about it.

Oldmantook said:
Another logical fallacy asserted by you which you have a bad habit of doing. Your red herring response states that I believe in salvation by works. FYI I believe in salvation by faith evidenced by good works. Faith and works go hand in hand as we were created to do good works (Eph 2:10) and works are the outward evidence of inward faith (Js 2:24). Faith + works = not true. Faith = works = true. Do me a favor and don't just make up things I don't believe in.

I believe also that works will of necessity be seen in true believers (i.e. works will follow faith). Therefore faith and works are both involved in salvation and are, as it were, joined at the hip.

But I must say that if one is saved by a simple belief in Jesus Christ and then sealed unto the day of judgment, as was the Philippian jailer or the thief on the cross, - and then can loose it by not living a certain way - the maintaining and or regaining of salvation "phase" of salvation becomes one of works and not simple faith.

To be sure - it's a fine line between following God's law because one is saved and adding keeping the law to faith in order to get saved or keep saved. One concept is thoroughly scriptural and pleasing to God. The other is cursed by God.

But I will absolutely take your admonition to heart and refrain from here on out from referring to your method of maintaining and or regaining salvation as one of "works" - even though works are necessary to maintaining or regaining salvation in your teaching.

Oldmantook said:
I see you also make up your own definitions of what Jesus means. If you were more familiar with your Bible, you would know that Jesus himself plainly explains what he means by "never knew them." Jesus stated that he only knows those sheep who "listen" and "follow" him (Jn 10:27). Obviously those believers who work inequity and practice lawless do not listen and follow - therefore Jesus never knew them and they are commanded to depart. I suggest you allow the scriptures to interpret themselves instead of substituting your own opinion in place of them.

No - He does not say that He "only" knows those sheep who are currently listening and following Him as you clearly insinuate.

That may be true, I suppose, but it is not a logical conclusion based on the passage.

26 But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

The passage says that at least those people didn't believe because they were not His sheep.

He says that He knows His sheep. He says that His sheep listen and follow. He says He gives eternal life to His sheep.

What He does not say is that He takes that eternal life away from them if they are negligent in listening and following. In fact He says the direct opposite. He says they will never perish and adds that no one can take them away from Him.

I also suggest you allow the scriptures to interpret themselves instead of substituting your own opinion in place of them.

Oldmantook said:
If these are unbelievers, explain how come they did not experience the same fate as the sons of Sceva?

As I said, they may well have. I simply wouldn't know. The Bible doesn't say. Ask the Lord. How could I possibly know what happened when they did those things?

Oldmantook said:
I didn't ask the Lord - I asked YOU. Your failure to reply with YOUR answer speaks volumes.

I clearly did reply. My reply then and the one below speaks volumes about anyone who would ask me to tell them about things I couldn't possibly know about.

How about this? There is no more I could know about any beatings they may received or didn't receive from any demons than I could know about what they had for breakfast on the morning of their doing those things. The Lord might know about any beatings. Ask Him. While you're at it ask Him what they had for breakfast that day - then we'll have that information as well.

Oldmantook said:
Again, offer YOUR explanation how these people did the miraculous IN YOUR NAME since you claim they were unbelievers.

I'm assuming something here. But I assume you believe that Satan cannot do miraculous works and that he could not do them in the name of Jesus even if he did them. Is that correct? If so, where do you see that in scriptures.

It says that his house is divided if he does such things. But it does not say that he cannot do them.

Oldmantook said:
The fact is unbelievers cannot do things in Jesus' name as you claim. If so, show me one example. Unbelievers may do the miraculous but they don't use Jesus' name. When they attempt to do so - such as the sons of Sceva - bad things happen.

Where do you see that unbelievers cannot do things in Jesus name? Without mentioning names - it may well be that they do them daily on Christian T.V.

A logical fallacy follows - (you have been guilty of a bunch of them here):
The sons of Sceva received a beating when they tried to cast out demons in Christ's name. Therefore two things are true. Unbelievers cannot cast out demons in Christ's name and anyone who tries will be beaten by demons.

Oldmantook said:
We both believe that belief is necessary however you neglect to take into account that obedience is also necessary (Heb 5:9). Not all Christians from the moment of belief continue on in obedience and righteousness.

It says that to all those who obey Him He became the source of eternal salvation. It does not say that perfect continued obedience is required to keep that eternal salvation.

I would lead you again through the proper steps of what is and isn't good logic. But instead I will simply say don't go beyond what is written.

All Christians do indeed. We are the very righteousness of God in Christ and seal unto the day of judgment.

All Christians from the moment of becoming new creations are unable to sin in that new man. The old man was crucified with Christ. You obviously do not believe in the vicarious and substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Oldmantook said:
If you were familiar with Greek and had bothered to study this verse, you would well know that the word for "believes" is "pisteuōn" which is a present tense participle translated as "believing." One has passed from death to life as long as one is believING or continuing to believe. In the same way that one must continue to obey, the Christian must continue believing. If the believer ceases to believe and falls away from the faith, he/she incurs condemnation. Belief in the Bible is never strictly related to an aorist or one-time moment of belief in the past but requires ongoing belief. Those who no longer believe, apostatize from the faith, no longer abide and face condemnation.

""Truly, truly - I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes on Him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but has passed from death into life." John 5:24

If you had bothered to study the verse you would have seen that the one who believes has "eternal life" and shall not come into condemnation; but has already passed from death to life.

It does not say that that one may again pass to death and come into condemnation. Quite the opposite is true.

One does not continually pass from death to life as long as he is believing and cease passing from death to life as he stops believing. One is either alive or dead. If he is ever alive by virtue of believing - he shall not come again into the condemnation he was in.

This will be my last post to you. I don't want to correct you any more on your strained and incorrect logic.

I sincerely hope that the Lord's grace is wide enough to include those who have poor systematic theology such as yourself to be included in salvation on that day.

If it is not - and assuming that we are both living a fairly successful Christian life - I believe I know which of our two beliefs is more likely to be deficient when we meet Him face to face.

I am living a relatively sinless life and believe that that righteousness will account for nothing on the day of judgment with regards to salvation in it's most basic sense. I am depending entirely on the work of Jesus Christ at Calvary and beyond for my salvation and I have communicated that belief to God.

You are living a relatively sinless life and believe that that righteousness will account as the deciding factor on the day of judgment with regards to salvation in it's most basic sense. You are depending on the work of Jesus Christ and your ability to overcome sin in this life for your salvation and you have communicated that belief to God.

Good luck with your theology on the day of judgment. I sincerely hope that His net of grace is big enough for you and indeed for everyone who names the name of Christ even if their theology is even farther from the truth than is yours - including some of the cults, Roman Catholics and others I disagree with when it comes to basic soteriology.

Oldmantook · Sep 12, 2017

Marvin Knox said:
Absolutely correct.
If you believe what Jesus said (Y), you will believe X.
But - If you do not believe what Jesus said (Y), you may not believe X. Also if you don't believe X then you cannot believe what Jesus said (Y).
Note also that if you do not believe that no believer will receive the mark of the beast (X) - that of necessity means that you do not believe that no believer will come into condemnation (Y).

We both agree on the linear logic of the X - Y relationship. The problem however with your explanation is that your interpretation of what Jesus said (premise Y) differs from mine. Your position dictates that those who believe will never enter condemnation. My position dictates that those who believe AND obey will never enter condemnation. Your position does not allow for disobedience because according to your belief, a true believer will never disobey (at least to the point of loss of salvation). However that premise runs counter to Paul's own writing. Look up 1 Thess 3:5 where Paul references the Thessalonians dealing with suffering persecution/affliction in their times, which is very similar to the our topic of taking the mark under persecution in the future. Note that Paul is fearful for the Thessalonian's faith because of Satan's temptations and that Paul's labors would have been in vain. Paul did not have the same confidence as you do that true believers will always obey and keep the faith. His writing indicates that he was fearful that his labor of preaching the gospel would have been in vain if the Thessalonians had not kept the faith. "For now we live, if you are standing firm in the Lord" (1 Thess 3:8). The word "if" indicates that this sentence is conditional (we live, IF stand firm) and indicates the possibility that not all believers will stand firm and keep their faith. Therefore like Paul, my position is that under times of affliction such as the persecution of the antichrist, believers will be tempted to take the mark and the possibility of them not standing firm does indeed exist. Paul did not believe that all Christians persevere and will never fall away - neither do I.

Marvin Knox said:
Just because believers didn't take the mark and be condemned because of it says nothing about believers perhaps being condemned for any one of a million other reasons. If God told us that the only case for condemnation in the history of Christianity was taking the mark of the beast, you would perhaps have a useful argument.

I don't understand your argument because you have stated that true believers are never under any condemnation whatsoever. So what other "one of the million other reasons" for believers being "perhaps condemned" are you referring to? You appear to be contradicting yourself.

Marvin Knox said:
God asks us to accept and then preach the gospel even though the names of the elect have been written in the Book of Life since before the foundation of the world.

The elect written by God in the Book of Life can also be blotted out by God (Rev 3:5).

Marvin Knox said:
Likewise He extorts us to be holy even though we are predestined to be holy before Him in eternity future and even now through the advocacy of Jesus Christ our High Priest.

He exhorts us to be holy because without holiness NO ONE (including believers) will see the Lord (Heb 12:14). I agree with you that we are made positionally righteous in Christ upon regeneration by the Spirit however I disagree that we are predestined to be holy as every believer has the subsequent choice whether or not to walk in holiness and sanctification which is practical righteousness. Both positional righteousness and practical righteousness are required (1 Jn 2:29). That is why Paul warned the Roman brethren in Rom 8:13 that IF they are living according to the flesh, they will die, but IF they put to death the deeds of the body and are living according to the Spirit, they will live. The word IF indicates possibility - not certainty - therefore no believer is predestined to be holy.

Marvin Knox said:
"If God asks saved people who are being ordered to take the mark of the beast (which would end in the condemnation of God) to keep the commandments and endure that must mean that some saved people will not keep the commandments and endure."
That is simply not a logical conclusion.

On the contrary it is totally logical. Your forced eisegesis based on your premise that no genuine believer is ever condemned requires you to ignore the exhortation to persevere and keep the faith. The exhortation is there to encourage the saints to persevere despite extreme persecution. If all genuine saints are guaranteed to persevere then its obvious that there would be no need for such a call to persevere if they're going to persevere anyway. This kind of warning and exhortation only makes sense if the saints can indeed fall away. Otherwise such a warning is nonsensical.

Marvin Knox said:
But, you lacking a good base systematic theology as you do, I'm pretty sure you'll not get it or at least that you will argue about it.

I'm certainly no theologian but I do have two postgraduate degrees including one from seminary where I graduated with honors. And you?

Marvin Knox said:
But I must say that if one is saved by a simple belief in Jesus Christ and then sealed unto the day of judgment, as was the Philippian jailer or the thief on the cross, - and then can loose it by not living a certain way - the maintaining and or regaining of salvation "phase" of salvation becomes one of works and not simple faith.

Depends what your definition of simple faith is. One is certainly not saved by simple belief only. If that were the case, the NT would only contain verses such as Jn 3:16. However other verses such as Heb 5:9 make it clear that obedience is also requisite for eternal life. You cannot accept Jn 3:16 but otherwise ignore or dismiss Heb 5:9 as a requirement for "simple faith." Therefore a believer can indeed "loose it by not living a certain way" through ongoing disobedience not repented of.

Marvin Knox said:
No - He does not say that He "only" knows those sheep who are currently listening and following Him as you clearly insinuate.
That may be true, I suppose, but it is not a logical conclusion based on the passage.

Why is it not a logical conclusion? Jesus plainly stated that he knows those sheep who hear and follow him. He did not state that he knows those sheep and don't hear and don't follow him. If you are inferring that Jesus also knows those sheep who disobey by not hearing and following, then you would be adding your own meaning to the text which is not present in the text itself - a risky thing to do. The promises of Jn 10:28-29 are predicated upon the subject referred to in v.27 - sheep who are listening and following. Sheep who instead wander away and are disobedient become sinners who are lost and do not inherit eternal life. If you don't believe this I suggest you read Lk 15:1-7. The one sheep was part of the flock of 99 other sheep who need no repentance (v.7) - meaning a flock of believers. Thus the one sheep was a saint also - until he strayed and departed from the flock. He became "lost" (v.4) and is referred to as a "sinner" (v.7). Only upon repentance is this sinner found (v.7). Jesus' own teaching here nullifies your claim that a genuine believer can never disobey and be condemned. Jesus taught here that we as sheep can stray to the extent that we are no longer saints who belong to His flock, but sinners who need to repent and come back to the fold. Upon repentance, we are welcomed back to the flock.

Marvin Knox said:
I'm assuming something here. But I assume you believe that Satan cannot do miraculous works and that he could not do them in the name of Jesus even if he did them. Is that correct? If so, where do you see that in scriptures.
It says that his house is divided if he does such things. But it does not say that he cannot do them.

When you write "it does not say he cannot do them" you are making an argument from silence which is one of the weakest forms of argumentation. You were the one to claim that the people referred to in Matt 7 were not really believers despite their supernatural deeds. Given your assertion, these unbelievers were doing the miraculous. In effect, they are workers of the devil casting out demons in Jesus' name. Does that really make sense to you? That children of the devil would be casting out demons and thus dividing Satan's house against itself. That's exactly what the Jerusalem scribes condemned Jesus for when he cast out demons in Mark 3. Jesus responded by asking them a rhetorical question “How can Satan cast out Satan?" (v.23). By posing this rhetorical question Jesus meant that Satan does not certainly cast his own demons out because a house (Satan's house) divided against itself cannot stand. Therefore Jesus' own teaching puts to rest your notion that unbelievers or Satan can possibly cast out demons.

Marvin Knox said:
It says that to all those who obey Him He became the source of eternal salvation. It does not say that perfect continued obedience is required to keep that eternal salvation.

Again, your apparent lack of knowledge of the Greek betrays your understanding of this verse. The word for "obey" in Heb 5:9 is "hypakouousin" which is a present tense participle meaning "obeying." So contrary to your claim, continued obedience/obeying is in fact required to keep that eternal salvation. As I suggested before, it would help your understanding if you familiarize yourself with the original language. Our obedience is not perfect as no one is without sin, but when we do sin, repentance and turning away from sin is required.

Marvin Knox said:
If you had bothered to study the verse you would have seen that the one who believes has "eternal life" and shall not come into condemnation; but has already passed from death to life.
It does not say that that one may again pass to death and come into condemnation. Quite the opposite is true.
One does not continually pass from death to life as long as he is believing and cease passing from death to life as he stops believing. One is either alive or dead. If he is ever alive by virtue of believing - he shall not come again into the condemnation he was in

Your belief and doctrine is diametrically opposed to Jesus' own teaching. Would you care to explain how the prodigal son became "dead and alive AGAIN?" Jesus stated such a thing not once but twice in vs. 24 & 32 of Lk 15. And we know that when Jesus repeats something, it is important and often the main point of his teaching. Again I ask, how is the prodigal made again? The prodigal was alive when he abided in his father's house but he wasted his inheritance on sinful living. He did not physically die so he being dead can only refer to spiritual death. Therefore, sinful living results in spiritual death which has been my contention all along. The only way that the prodigal could be made alive again was for him to become spiritually dead because of habitual sin. However when he repented and returned to his father, he was forgiven and welcomed back home thus being made alive again. When a person comes to faith in Christ, he is regenerated and made alive in Christ (initial time). Like the prodigal he may elect to live in unrepentant sin and thus become spiritually dead. However if he truly repents like the prodigal, he is made ALIVE AGAIN (second time). This parable that Jesus taught directly contradicts your notion that no believer can be condemned and cannot experience death. The good news is that like the prodigal, he can be made alive again upon genuine repentance.

It's certainly your prerogative to trust in your systematic theology to form your doctrine. I think though that it puts you squarely at odds with the plain words of Jesus.

Marvin Knox · Sep 12, 2017

Oldmantook said:
I don't understand your argument because you have stated that true believers are never under any condemnation whatsoever. So what other "one of the million other reasons" for believers being "perhaps condemned" are you referring to? You appear to be contradicting yourself.

My presentation was to show that your say that not doing one thing which would surely bring condemnation (X in this case I believe ) dictated that one also believe that no one who believes will never come into condemnation.

My example was to show that my statement was not circular. i.e. just because one doesn't do a particular thing which will bring condemnation doesn't mean that he will never do another. Y proves X. But X doesn't prove Y. Thus no circular reasoning is involved here.

What is required of course is that one believes Jesus words which say that anyone who believes has passed from death to life and will not come into condemnation. The doctrine is buttressed by the simple concept of the sealing by the Holy Spirit (Who will never leave us or forsake us).

Oldmantook said:
The elect written by God in the Book of Life can also be blotted out by God (Rev 3:5).

Actually it says no such thing. It simply says that certain people will not be blotted out.

Oldmantook said:
I disagree that we are predestined to be holy as every believer has the subsequent choice whether or not to walk in holiness and sanctification which is practical righteousness. Both positional righteousness and practical righteousness are required (1 Jn 2:29). That is why Paul warned the Roman brethren in Rom 8:13 that IF they are living according to the flesh, they will die, but IF they put to death the deeds of the body and are living according to the Spirit, they will live. The word IF indicates possibility - not certainty - therefore no believer is predestined to be holy.

The scriptures say otherwise.

"For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." Romans 8:29-30

The "ifs" you refer to are not in the text. We can debate what "death" means. But there can be no doubt that we were predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son (i.e. holy).

Oldmantook said:
Why is it not a logical conclusion? Jesus plainly stated that he knows those sheep who hear and follow him. He did not state that he knows those sheep and don't hear and don't follow him. If you are inferring that Jesus also knows those sheep who disobey by not hearing and following then you would be adding your own meaning to the text which is not present in the text itself - a risky thing to do............

No one said that He stated that He knows the sheep who do not hear and follow Him. All believers hear and follow Him.

When you say that Jesus stops knowing those who are not hearing and following Him enough to please Him to a certain extent you are the one adding your own meaning to the text - admittedly a risky thing to do.

Oldmantook said:
When you write "it does not say he cannot do them" you are making an argument from silence which is one of the weakest forms of argumentation.

No - actually you are the one making a weak argument from silence.
It says nowhere that unbeiievers cannot cast out demons. You are simply assuming that based on a story which says that some people who tried it were beaten.

It appear that Judas managed to do it. It seems also that he was not beaten for it.

Oldmantook said:
It's certainly your prerogative to trust in your systematic theology to form your doctrine. I think though that it puts you squarely at odds with the plain words of Jesus.

You make a strong argument at times and a weak argument at other times.

But we'll have to agree to disagree on this subject. I'm going to have to curtail my activities here in the forum for a while.

You can have the last word if that's important to you.

[/QUOTE]

Ron Gurley · Sep 13, 2017

OP: Q: Please tell me why NT passages such as these do NOT apply to you?

A: They all apply to all. You have extracted them from The Bible, the "word of God". They are WARNINGS!

Q2: Have you been deceived into believing in “once saved, always saved”.(OSAS)

A2: No deception. The Doctrine of Eternal Security of true believer's salvation is supported by Scripture,
and only a few troublesome verses are to the contrary.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/losing-salvation.8010090/

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/you-can-lose-your-salvation-through-apostasy.7785433/

Can True born again BELIEVERS lose their spiritual POSITION in Christ?

Can a Christian Lose His Salvation?

Willful Sin after Salvation and Eternal Security

Q3: your sins (past, present, and future) have all been forgiven?

A3: If not, then Jesus the Divine Messiah died in vain!

"FOR" = Greek 1519 "eis" ~= into, unto, to, towards, for, among, (because of?) (in place of?)

FORGIVENESS / REMISSION ...Greek 859 - "aphesis'...release from bondage or imprisonment; forgiveness or pardon, of sins
(letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

Forgiveness of Sin / Sin(s) is ONE of the spiritual benefits of salvation!...(all NASB)

Matthew 26:28
for this is My blood of the (NEW!) covenant,
which is poured out for many (who believe) FOR forgiveness of sins.

Luke 1:77
To give to His people the knowledge of salvation,
By (knowing) the forgiveness of their sins,

Act 5:31
“He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior,
to grant repentance to Israel, and (to grant) forgiveness of sins.

Act 10:43
“Of Him all the prophets bear witness that
through His name everyone who BELIEVES in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Ephesians 1:7
IN Him, we have redemption THROUGH His blood,
the forgiveness of our trespasses,
according to the riches of His GRACE

Colosians 1:14
in whom we have redemption,
the forgiveness of sins.

Q4: deceived into believing in a "pre-tribulation rapture"?

A4: Not deceived. Doctrine of the MID-TRIBULATION "RAPTURO":
Matthew 24 + 1 Thess. 4 + many other verses,

Born-again (believers) have been given a new nature; and the indwelling (God the)Holy Spirit
to free them from their bondage to Satan – and from their slavery to sin!

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature;
the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

The INDWELLING of God the Holy Spirit... permanently communing with the Spirit of Saved Believers...SANCTIFICATION!

1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of (God) the Holy Spirit
who is IN you,
whom you have FROM God, and that you are not your own?

2 Corinthians 6:16B
For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,
“I will dwell in them and walk among them;
And I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

I WILL DWELL...Greek 1774...enoikeo...II.metaphor: to dwell in one and influence him (for good)

James 4:5
Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: “He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us”?

He has made to dwell...Greek 6052...katoikizo...establish, give a dwelling to

Romans 8:9,11
However, you are not in the flesh but IN the Spirit,
if indeed the "Spirit of God" dwells in you.
But if anyone does not have the "Spirit of Christ", he does not belong to Him...
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you,
He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies
through His Spirit who dwells in you.

dwells in...Greek 3611...oikeo en...to cohabit: dwell

1 Thessalonians 5: 12-19 (NASB) Paul: CONDUCT for Christ-followers...
...Rejoice always;
pray without ceasing;
in everything give thanks; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.
Do not QUENCH (God) the (Holy) Spirit; ....(who is the indwelling "paraclete" communing with your Spirit)
>>>i.e.....Don't throw a "wet blanket" on the "fire" of your Counselor...<<<

1 Corinthians 2: 6-16 (NIV1984)...Wisdom From the Spirit
In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
We have not received the spirit of the world (anti-christs) but the Spirit who is FROM God,
that we may understand what God has freely given us.This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by (God) the (Holy) Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

Q5: the believer MUST remain in the faith until death to receive eternal life!

A5: False Doctrine!

The SALVATION offered by Jesus in John 3 explained in Ephesians 2 = PAST completed TENSE! (Aorist)

Luke 19:1-10...[ Zaccheus Converted ]
9 And Jesus said to him,
“Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.
10 For the Son of Man "has come" to seek and to save that which was lost.”

Mark 2:17
And hearing this, Jesus said to them,
“It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick;
I did not "come to call" the righteous, but sinners.”

John 3
17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world,
but that the world might "be saved" through Him.
18 He who believes in Him is not judged;
he who does not believe has been judged already,
because he "has not believed" in the name of the ONLY begotten Son of God.

John 6
35 Jesus said to them,
“I am the bread of life;
he who COMES to Me WILL not hunger,
and he who BELIEVES in Me WILL never thirst.
36 But I said to you that you have SEEN Me, and yet do not BELIEVE.
40 For this is the will of My Father,
that everyone who beholds the Son and BELIEVES in Him "WILL (is certain to) have "eternal life"",
and I Myself will raise him up "on the last day".”

John 10
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I "GIVE eternal life to them", and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who HAS GIVEN them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.” (IN SPIRITUAL ESSENCE AND NATURE!)

John 17:2-3 ...Jesus' High Priestly Prayer to the Father about Jesus' followers
even as You gave Him authority over all flesh,
that to all whom You "have given" Him,
He MAY GIVE "eternal life".
This is "eternal life",
that they MAY KNOW You, the only true God, and
(KNOW) Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

John 1:12,14 (NIV)
Yet to all who "RECEIVED" him,
to those who "BELIEVED" in His name, (Jesus the Christ) He gave the right to become CHILDREN of God...

Ron Gurley · Sep 13, 2017

You confuse the spiritual POSITION of saved believers in Christ with their PRACTICE during the SANCTIFICATION PROCESS.

Believers are NOT JUDGED, only their WORKS in or out of the will of God.

Ron Gurley · Sep 13, 2017

Q: all of God’s blessings are CONDITIONAL.

A: False doctrine again.
God spiritually DRAWS/CALLS/LEADS all of Mankind's spirits to a decision: ACCEPT or REJECT.

Giving Life itself is UN-CONDITIONAL..

Acts 17:25
nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;

Zechariah 12:1...Thus declares the Lord
who stretches out the heavens,
lays the foundation of the earth, and
forms the SPIRIT of man within him,

Job 33:4
“The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Luke 12:22...God PROVIDES
And He said to His disciples, “For this reason I say to you, do not worry about your life, as to what you will eat; nor for your body, as to what you will put on.

Ron Gurley · Sep 13, 2017

You confuse WARNINGS with REQUIREMENTS!
God hates SIN. God loves SINNERS.

BCsenior · Sep 13, 2017

Ron Gurley said:
You confuse WARNINGS with REQUIREMENTS!

More than several NT warn about LOSING salvation.
And one cannot LOSE what they do not have.
T'was Dr. Thomas Hale who first brought it to my attention that ...
all of God's promises are conditional including salvation (which is a process)!

FYI, Ephesians and Colossians were written ONLY to "faithful" believers!
(Check the various translations.)
These 2 books do NOT apply whatsoever to believers who are involved in habitual sinning!
So, please scratch these 2 books from your OSAS so-called proof texts!

Ron Gurley · Sep 13, 2017

Response to #56: Q: " all of God's promises are conditional including salvation (which is a process)! "

CHALLENGE: Copy + Paste all NASB Scripture supporting that false assertion HERE.

Salvation is a spiritual EVENT.
Sanctification is a spiritual PROCESS.

Ron Gurley · Sep 13, 2017

All canonized Scripture of the NT was to be circulated among believers and churches. Paul's letters were written to "churches" established on his 3 missionary journeys. No one letter or book is more sacred nor true than the other.

BCsenior · Sep 14, 2017

Ron Gurley said:
Response to #56: Q: " all of God's promises are conditional including salvation (which is a process)! "
CHALLENGE: Copy + Paste all NASB Scripture supporting that false assertion HERE.

Your biggest problem is that you are spiritually BLIND to all of the "IF"s in the Bible.
News Flash ... "IF" indicates a condition is coming forthwith, if not sooner.

Oldmantook · Sep 15, 2017

Marvin Knox said:
My example was to show that my statement was not circular. i.e. just because one doesn't do a particular thing which will bring condemnation doesn't mean that he will never do another. Y proves X. But X doesn't prove Y. Thus no circular reasoning is involved here.

That's exactly my question; what other thing can he do that will bring condemnation since you believe a believer never can do anything that will bring condemnation? If you're going to use that as a reason for discounting circular reasoning, then you need to provide a valid example(s) of such.

Marvin Knox said:
Actually it says no such thing. It simply says that certain people will not be blotted out.

Yes, certain people will not be blotted out - namely those who overcome. However, not all believers overcome. Those believers who have a part or share in the tree of life are not overcomers based on Rev 22:19. "And if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Rev 22:19). It's not possible to have one's part in the tree of life taken away unless he had a part in the tree of life to begin with. Therefore since God can take away a believer's part in the tree of life, his name is also erased in the book of life.

Marvin Knox said:
The "ifs" you refer to are not in the text.

The "ifs" are plainly there for all to read but you choose to ignore them for the sake of holding on to your belief. Rom 8:13 consists of two first class conditional statements. In the Greek, a first class condition essentially represents a cause-effect relationship where the action in the protasis will cause the effect in the apodosis. For example Romans 8:13a, "...if you live according to the flesh, you will die." This is known as a simple condition and assumes that the premise (protasis) is true for the sake of argument.

Marvin Knox said:
The scriptures say otherwise.
"For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." Romans 8:29-30

Your citation is probably one of the strongest if not the strongest proof text for the security of the believer since it appears that if God predestines someone, he/she is also glorified. So much so that Calvinists fondly refer to this passage as the Golden Chain of Salvation/Redemption. Each of these links appear to be a logically linear chain of links that are unbreakable thus guaranteeing a believer's security and never coming under condemnation. However, if it can be scripturally demonstrated that just one of these supposedly secure links can be broken then eternal security - is not so secure after all. Thus refer yourself to Gal 1:6 where Paul himself testifies that some Galatians who are CALLED (Greek kaleo) by the grace of Christ are deserting Christ by turning to a different gospel. Called/kaleo in Gal 1:6 is the same word called/kaleo used in Rom 8:30. Paul's own witness testifies that some of these Galatian believers who despite being CALLED - same word as in Rom 8:30 - fell away and deserted Christ. Based on Paul's own testimony, being called/kaleo does not guarantee that one will endure and end up being glorified. Thus the Chain of Redemption is not so unbreakable after all.

Marvin Knox said:
No one said that He stated that He knows the sheep who do not hear and follow Him. All believers hear and follow Him.
When you say that Jesus stops knowing those who are not hearing and following Him enough to please Him to a certain extent you are the one adding your own meaning to the text - admittedly a risky thing to do.

Really? Then the onus is on you to provide an explanation that if all believers hear and follow as you assert, how did the lost sheep in Luke 15 stray away from the flock and become "lost" and a "sinner" in need of repentance??

Marvin Knox said:
No - actually you are the one making a weak argument from silence.
It says nowhere that unbelievers cannot cast out demons. You are simply assuming that based on a story which says that some people who tried it were beaten

Uhh...no as your opinion contradicts Jesus' statement. Jesus as I previously pointed out to you taught that unbelievers cannot cast out demons because that would be akin to Satan dividing his house against itself. You may want to reread Mk 3:22-26.

Marvin Knox said:
It appear that Judas managed to do it. It seems also that he was not beaten for it.

That's because Judas was a believer who later betrayed Christ and lost his salvation. If you manage to carefully read Jn 17:6-12 there is not one iota of difference between Jesus' description of Judas compared with the rest of the disciples except for the fact that he is the son of perdition so that the Scripture would be fulfilled v.12. Judas and the disciples were given to Jesus by the Father v.6. Only believers are given to the Son by the Father. Judas and his cohorts accepted and believed v.8. Jesus protected and kept them by "that name you gave me" v.12. Only true believers can be kept by the name of Jesus, yet despite this, Judas was still lost because of his choice to sin and betray Christ. This passage clearly delineates that there was no difference between Judas and his fellow believers so the onus in on you to somehow prove that Judas was different and an unbeliever from the beginning.

Having the last word to me is irrelevant as we end up agreeing to disagree. Ironically I used to believe as you do as all of my seminary profs were Reformed in their theology so I just assumed what they taught was true. They were sincere in their beliefs and I still respect them but I now disagree with them based on years of studying this subject on my own. I suspect we all tend to believe what we are taught without fully questioning what we are taught - at least that was my habit until I started to scrutinize the scriptures for myself. If you do reply one last time, please offer your explanation of how the prodigal son was made alive again. If I'm wrong in my interpretation, I would like to be informed of such but I cannot think of any other interpretation other than the one I proffered.

Here's the most critical question for you ...

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