The difference between the rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ

Quasar92

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Rapture/Translation versus the 2nd Coming/to Establish Kingdom

1. Translation of all believers. 1. No translation at all.
2. Translated saints go to heaven. 2. Translated saints return to earth.
3. Earth not judged. 3. Earth judged & righteousness established.
4. Imminent, any-moment. 4. Follows definite predicted signless signs
including tribulation.
5. Not in the Old Testament. 5. Predicted often in Old Testament.
6. Believers only. 6. Affects all men.
7. Before the day of wrath. 7 Concluding the day of wrath.
8. No reference to Satan. 8. Satan bound.
9. Christ comes for His own. 9. Christ comes with His own.
10. He comes in the air. 10. He comes to the earth.
11. He claims His bride. 11 He comes with His bride.
12. Only His own see Him. 12 Every eye shall see Him.
13. Tribulation begins. 13 Millennial Kingdom begins.

John Walvoord concludes that these "contrasts should make it evident that the translation of the church is an event quite different in character and time from the return of the Lord to establish His kingdom, and confirms the conclusion that the translation takes place before the tribulation."

ADDITIONAL DIFFERENCES

Paul speaks of the rapture as a "mystery" [1 Cor. 15:51-54], that is a truth not revealed until its disclosure by the apostles (Col. 1:26), making it a separate event, while the second coming was predicted in the Old Testament [Dan. 12:1-3; Zech. 12:10; 14:4].

The movement for the believer at the rapture is from earth to heaven, in Jn.14:2-4 and 28, while it is from heaven to earth at the second advent, in Mt.24:30-31 and Rev.19:14. At the rapture, the Lord comes for his saints [1 Thess. 4:16], while at the second coming the Lord comes with His saints [1 Thess. 3:13]. At the rapture, the Lord comes only for believers, but His return to the earth will impact all people. The rapture is a translation event where the Lord takes believers "to the Father's house" in heaven [John 14:2-4 and 28], while at the second coming believers return from heaven to the earth [Matt. 24:30-31; Rev.19:14; Zech.14:4-5 and Jude 14]. Hindson says, "The different aspects of our Lord's return are clearly delineated in the scriptures themselves. The only real issue in the eschatological debate is the time interval between them."<<<

When does the rapture of the Church take place?

That was the exact purpose of Paul's second epistle to the Thessalonians, because they had received a forged letter as if it had come from Paul telling them the Day of the Lord had already come, and they were still on the earth, after Paul had taught them they would be caught up to be with the Lord in the clouds of the air, before the Day of the Lord begins. In this context, Paul has used the term, "Day of the Lord" to mean, the seven years of tribulation.


The key to the timing of the rapture of the Church is in 2 Thes.2:1-4 and 7-8, as recorded below:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him [A direct reference to 1Thes.4:17] "...we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR."], we ask you, brothers," Vs 1."not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The seven years of tribulation] has already come." Vs 2.

"Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord/seven year tribulation] will not come until the "apostasia" [Greek term for "departure"/CAUGHT UP, from the original translation] occurs [first] and the man of lawlessness is revealed [The antichrist], the man doomed to destruction." Vs 3. [See added details below].
"He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4.
In confirmation of verse 3. above is the following:

"For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The one body of Christ/His Church - as they will depart/CAUGHT UP in vs 3.] is taken out of the way."
A review of vs 3. in the issue pertaining to why our present day Bibles are using the terms "falling away," "apostasy" and "the rebellion," for the Greek term "apostasia," is IMO, due to alterations made to the KJV by the RCC, in both verses 2 and 3, to read, "Day of Christ," and "apostasy," respectively, to suit their theological belief and teachings of Amillennialism, which denies any rapture as well as the Millennial reign of Christ on the earth.

Changing "the Day of the Lord" to the "Day of Christ," as the translators of the KJV have done, changes the prophecy from a seven year period of time, which is in full confirmation of Dan.9:27, to a one day scene, of Jesus second coming, instead of the rapture Paul wrote about. Then in the alteration in the intended meaning of the Greek term, "apostasia," to one of its other meanings, completely altering the meaning again, from a rapture of the Church to a supposed apostasy of the Church. See the translation history of the term "apostasia" in vs 3, in the following:

The Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3:

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy [As altered in the KJV] comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,


The original translation of 2 Thessalonians 2:3:

Verse 2 is: Day of the Lord, not Day of Christ [/b][As altered by the KJV]! The Day of the Lord begins in this instance with the Pre-trib rapture of the Church and never ends thereafter.

Verse 3. "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the departure occurs [first] and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction."

2 Thessalonians 2:3 is speaking of the rapture. What do I mean? Some pretribulationists, like myself, think that the Greek noun apostasia, usually translated " apostasy," is a reference to the rapture and should be translated " departure." Thus, this passage would be saying that the day of the Lord will not come until the rapture comes before it. If apostasia is a reference to a physical departure, then 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is strong evidence for pretribulationism.

The Meaning of Apostasia and Discessio:

The Greek noun apostasia is only used twice in the New Testament. In addition to 2 Thessalonians 2:3, it occurs in Acts 21:21 where, speaking of Paul, it is said, " that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia)Moses." The word is a Greek compound of apo " from" and istemi " stand." Thus, it has the core meaning of " away from" or " departure." The Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon defines apostasia first as " defection, revolt;" then secondly as " departure, disappearance." [1] Gordon Lewis explains how the verb from which the noun apostasia is derived supports the basic meaning of departure in the following:

The verb may mean to remove spatially. There is little reason then to deny that the noun can mean such a spatial removal or departure. Since the noun is used only one other time in the New Testament of apostasy from Moses (Acts 21:21), we can hardly conclude that its Biblical meaning is necessarily determined. The verb is used fifteen times in the New Testament. Of these fifteen, only three have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8;13; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb 3:12). The word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Tim. 2:19), from ungodly men(1 Tim. 6:5), from the temple (Luke 2:27), from the body (2 Cor. 12:8) , and from persons (Acts 12:10; Luke 4:13).[2]
" It is with full assurance of proper exegetical study and with complete confidence in the original languages," concludes Daniel Davey, " that the word meaning of apostasia is defined as departure." [3] Paul Lee Tan adds the following:

What precisely does Paul mean when he says that " the falling away" (2:3) must come before the tribulation? The definite article " the" denotes that this will be a definite event, an event distinct from the appearance of the Man of Sin. The Greek word for " falling away" , taken by itself, does not mean religious apostasy or defection. Neither does the word mean " to fall," as the Greeks have another word for that. [pipto, I fall; TDI] The best translation of the word is " to depart." The apostle Paul refers here to a definite event which he calls " the departure," and which will occur just before the start of the tribulation. This is the rapture of the church.

So the word has the core meaning of departure and it depends upon the context to determine whether it is used to mean physical departure or an abstract departure such as departure from the faith.

Translation History of apostasia and Discessio:

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384 A.D.); Tyndale Bible (1526 A.D.); Coverdale Bible (1535 A.D.); Cranmer Bible (1539 A.D.); Breeches Bible (1576 A.D.); Beza Bible (1583 A.D.); Geneva Bible (1608 A.D.) .[5] This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.'" Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of " departure" in 1611 A.D.?[/b]

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given. [IMO and highly suspect, because of the RCC Amilliannial theology].


Quasar92
 

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Rapture/Translation versus the 2nd Coming/to Establish Kingdom

1. Translation of all believers. 1. No translation at all.
2. Translated saints go to heaven. 2. Translated saints return to earth.
3. Earth not judged. 3. Earth judged & righteousness established.
4. Imminent, any-moment. 4. Follows definite predicted signless signs
including tribulation.
5. Not in the Old Testament. 5. Predicted often in Old Testament.
6. Believers only. 6. Affects all men.
7. Before the day of wrath. 7 Concluding the day of wrath.
8. No reference to Satan. 8. Satan bound.
9. Christ comes for His own. 9. Christ comes with His own.
10. He comes in the air. 10. He comes to the earth.
11. He claims His bride. 11 He comes with His bride.
12. Only His own see Him. 12 Every eye shall see Him.
13. Tribulation begins. 13 Millennial Kingdom begins.

John Walvoord concludes that these "contrasts should make it evident that the translation of the church is an event quite different in character and time from the return of the Lord to establish His kingdom, and confirms the conclusion that the translation takes place before the tribulation."

ADDITIONAL DIFFERENCES

Paul speaks of the rapture as a "mystery" [1 Cor. 15:51-54], that is a truth not revealed until its disclosure by the apostles (Col. 1:26), making it a separate event, while the second coming was predicted in the Old Testament [Dan. 12:1-3; Zech. 12:10; 14:4].

The movement for the believer at the rapture is from earth to heaven, in Jn.14:2-4 and 28, while it is from heaven to earth at the second advent, in Mt.24:30-31 and Rev.19:14. At the rapture, the Lord comes for his saints [1 Thess. 4:16], while at the second coming the Lord comes with His saints [1 Thess. 3:13]. At the rapture, the Lord comes only for believers, but His return to the earth will impact all people. The rapture is a translation event where the Lord takes believers "to the Father's house" in heaven [John 14:2-4 and 28], while at the second coming believers return from heaven to the earth [Matt. 24:30-31; Rev.19:14; Zech.14:4-5 and Jude 14]. Hindson says, "The different aspects of our Lord's return are clearly delineated in the scriptures themselves. The only real issue in the eschatological debate is the time interval between them."<<<

When does the rapture of the Church take place?

That was the exact purpose of Paul's second epistle to the Thessalonians, because they had received a forged letter as if it had come from Paul telling them the Day of the Lord had already come, and they were still on the earth, after Paul had taught them they would be caught up to be with the Lord in the clouds of the air, before the Day of the Lord begins. In this context, Paul has used the term, "Day of the Lord" to mean, the seven years of tribulation.


The key to the timing of the rapture of the Church is in 2 Thes.2:1-4 and 7-8, as recorded below:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him [A direct reference to 1Thes.4:17] "...we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR."], we ask you, brothers," Vs 1."not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The seven years of tribulation] has already come." Vs 2.

"Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord/seven year tribulation] will not come until the "apostasia" [Greek term for "departure"/CAUGHT UP, from the original translation] occurs [first] and the man of lawlessness is revealed [The antichrist], the man doomed to destruction." Vs 3. [See added details below].
"He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4.
In confirmation of verse 3. above is the following:

"For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The one body of Christ/His Church - as they will depart/CAUGHT UP in vs 3.] is taken out of the way."
A review of vs 3. in the issue pertaining to why our present day Bibles are using the terms "falling away," "apostasy" and "the rebellion," for the Greek term "apostasia," is IMO, due to alterations made to the KJV by the RCC, in both verses 2 and 3, to read, "Day of Christ," and "apostasy," respectively, to suit their theological belief and teachings of Amillennialism, which denies any rapture as well as the Millennial reign of Christ on the earth.

Changing "the Day of the Lord" to the "Day of Christ," as the translators of the KJV have done, changes the prophecy from a seven year period of time, which is in full confirmation of Dan.9:27, to a one day scene, of Jesus second coming, instead of the rapture Paul wrote about. Then in the alteration in the intended meaning of the Greek term, "apostasia," to one of its other meanings, completely altering the meaning again, from a rapture of the Church to a supposed apostasy of the Church. See the translation history of the term "apostasia" in vs 3, in the following:

The Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3:

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy [As altered in the KJV] comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,


The original translation of 2 Thessalonians 2:3:

Verse 2 is: Day of the Lord, not Day of Christ [/b][As altered by the KJV]! The Day of the Lord begins in this instance with the Pre-trib rapture of the Church and never ends thereafter.

Verse 3. "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the departure occurs [first] and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction."

2 Thessalonians 2:3 is speaking of the rapture. What do I mean? Some pretribulationists, like myself, think that the Greek noun apostasia, usually translated " apostasy," is a reference to the rapture and should be translated " departure." Thus, this passage would be saying that the day of the Lord will not come until the rapture comes before it. If apostasia is a reference to a physical departure, then 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is strong evidence for pretribulationism.

The Meaning of Apostasia and Discessio:

The Greek noun apostasia is only used twice in the New Testament. In addition to 2 Thessalonians 2:3, it occurs in Acts 21:21 where, speaking of Paul, it is said, " that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia)Moses." The word is a Greek compound of apo " from" and istemi " stand." Thus, it has the core meaning of " away from" or " departure." The Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon defines apostasia first as " defection, revolt;" then secondly as " departure, disappearance." [1] Gordon Lewis explains how the verb from which the noun apostasia is derived supports the basic meaning of departure in the following:

The verb may mean to remove spatially. There is little reason then to deny that the noun can mean such a spatial removal or departure. Since the noun is used only one other time in the New Testament of apostasy from Moses (Acts 21:21), we can hardly conclude that its Biblical meaning is necessarily determined. The verb is used fifteen times in the New Testament. Of these fifteen, only three have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8;13; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb 3:12). The word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Tim. 2:19), from ungodly men(1 Tim. 6:5), from the temple (Luke 2:27), from the body (2 Cor. 12:8) , and from persons (Acts 12:10; Luke 4:13).[2]
" It is with full assurance of proper exegetical study and with complete confidence in the original languages," concludes Daniel Davey, " that the word meaning of apostasia is defined as departure." [3] Paul Lee Tan adds the following:

What precisely does Paul mean when he says that " the falling away" (2:3) must come before the tribulation? The definite article " the" denotes that this will be a definite event, an event distinct from the appearance of the Man of Sin. The Greek word for " falling away" , taken by itself, does not mean religious apostasy or defection. Neither does the word mean " to fall," as the Greeks have another word for that. [pipto, I fall; TDI] The best translation of the word is " to depart." The apostle Paul refers here to a definite event which he calls " the departure," and which will occur just before the start of the tribulation. This is the rapture of the church.

So the word has the core meaning of departure and it depends upon the context to determine whether it is used to mean physical departure or an abstract departure such as departure from the faith.

Translation History of apostasia and Discessio:

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384 A.D.); Tyndale Bible (1526 A.D.); Coverdale Bible (1535 A.D.); Cranmer Bible (1539 A.D.); Breeches Bible (1576 A.D.); Beza Bible (1583 A.D.); Geneva Bible (1608 A.D.) .[5] This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.'" Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of " departure" in 1611 A.D.?[/b]

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given. [IMO and highly suspect, because of the RCC Amilliannial theology].


Quasar92

All of the above evaporates after the reading of one verse.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 

A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant.

The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Nobody will come to salvation outside of the New Covenant Church during a future time period.

The facts above are the Achilles Heel of modern Dispensational Theology.

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jgr

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Rapture/Translation versus the 2nd Coming/to Establish Kingdom

1. Translation of all believers. 1. No translation at all.
2. Translated saints go to heaven. 2. Translated saints return to earth.
3. Earth not judged. 3. Earth judged & righteousness established.
4. Imminent, any-moment. 4. Follows definite predicted signless signs
including tribulation.
5. Not in the Old Testament. 5. Predicted often in Old Testament.
6. Believers only. 6. Affects all men.
7. Before the day of wrath. 7 Concluding the day of wrath.
8. No reference to Satan. 8. Satan bound.
9. Christ comes for His own. 9. Christ comes with His own.
10. He comes in the air. 10. He comes to the earth.
11. He claims His bride. 11 He comes with His bride.
12. Only His own see Him. 12 Every eye shall see Him.
13. Tribulation begins. 13 Millennial Kingdom begins.

John Walvoord concludes that these "contrasts should make it evident that the translation of the church is an event quite different in character and time from the return of the Lord to establish His kingdom, and confirms the conclusion that the translation takes place before the tribulation."

ADDITIONAL DIFFERENCES

Paul speaks of the rapture as a "mystery" [1 Cor. 15:51-54], that is a truth not revealed until its disclosure by the apostles (Col. 1:26), making it a separate event, while the second coming was predicted in the Old Testament [Dan. 12:1-3; Zech. 12:10; 14:4].

The movement for the believer at the rapture is from earth to heaven, in Jn.14:2-4 and 28, while it is from heaven to earth at the second advent, in Mt.24:30-31 and Rev.19:14. At the rapture, the Lord comes for his saints [1 Thess. 4:16], while at the second coming the Lord comes with His saints [1 Thess. 3:13]. At the rapture, the Lord comes only for believers, but His return to the earth will impact all people. The rapture is a translation event where the Lord takes believers "to the Father's house" in heaven [John 14:2-4 and 28], while at the second coming believers return from heaven to the earth [Matt. 24:30-31; Rev.19:14; Zech.14:4-5 and Jude 14]. Hindson says, "The different aspects of our Lord's return are clearly delineated in the scriptures themselves. The only real issue in the eschatological debate is the time interval between them."<<<

When does the rapture of the Church take place?

That was the exact purpose of Paul's second epistle to the Thessalonians, because they had received a forged letter as if it had come from Paul telling them the Day of the Lord had already come, and they were still on the earth, after Paul had taught them they would be caught up to be with the Lord in the clouds of the air, before the Day of the Lord begins. In this context, Paul has used the term, "Day of the Lord" to mean, the seven years of tribulation.


The key to the timing of the rapture of the Church is in 2 Thes.2:1-4 and 7-8, as recorded below:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him [A direct reference to 1Thes.4:17] "...we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR."], we ask you, brothers," Vs 1."not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The seven years of tribulation] has already come." Vs 2.

"Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord/seven year tribulation] will not come until the "apostasia" [Greek term for "departure"/CAUGHT UP, from the original translation] occurs [first] and the man of lawlessness is revealed [The antichrist], the man doomed to destruction." Vs 3. [See added details below].
"He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4.
In confirmation of verse 3. above is the following:

"For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The one body of Christ/His Church - as they will depart/CAUGHT UP in vs 3.] is taken out of the way."
A review of vs 3. in the issue pertaining to why our present day Bibles are using the terms "falling away," "apostasy" and "the rebellion," for the Greek term "apostasia," is IMO, due to alterations made to the KJV by the RCC, in both verses 2 and 3, to read, "Day of Christ," and "apostasy," respectively, to suit their theological belief and teachings of Amillennialism, which denies any rapture as well as the Millennial reign of Christ on the earth.

Changing "the Day of the Lord" to the "Day of Christ," as the translators of the KJV have done, changes the prophecy from a seven year period of time, which is in full confirmation of Dan.9:27, to a one day scene, of Jesus second coming, instead of the rapture Paul wrote about. Then in the alteration in the intended meaning of the Greek term, "apostasia," to one of its other meanings, completely altering the meaning again, from a rapture of the Church to a supposed apostasy of the Church. See the translation history of the term "apostasia" in vs 3, in the following:

The Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3:

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy [As altered in the KJV] comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,


The original translation of 2 Thessalonians 2:3:

Verse 2 is: Day of the Lord, not Day of Christ [/b][As altered by the KJV]! The Day of the Lord begins in this instance with the Pre-trib rapture of the Church and never ends thereafter.

Verse 3. "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the departure occurs [first] and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction."

2 Thessalonians 2:3 is speaking of the rapture. What do I mean? Some pretribulationists, like myself, think that the Greek noun apostasia, usually translated " apostasy," is a reference to the rapture and should be translated " departure." Thus, this passage would be saying that the day of the Lord will not come until the rapture comes before it. If apostasia is a reference to a physical departure, then 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is strong evidence for pretribulationism.

The Meaning of Apostasia and Discessio:

The Greek noun apostasia is only used twice in the New Testament. In addition to 2 Thessalonians 2:3, it occurs in Acts 21:21 where, speaking of Paul, it is said, " that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia)Moses." The word is a Greek compound of apo " from" and istemi " stand." Thus, it has the core meaning of " away from" or " departure." The Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon defines apostasia first as " defection, revolt;" then secondly as " departure, disappearance." [1] Gordon Lewis explains how the verb from which the noun apostasia is derived supports the basic meaning of departure in the following:

The verb may mean to remove spatially. There is little reason then to deny that the noun can mean such a spatial removal or departure. Since the noun is used only one other time in the New Testament of apostasy from Moses (Acts 21:21), we can hardly conclude that its Biblical meaning is necessarily determined. The verb is used fifteen times in the New Testament. Of these fifteen, only three have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8;13; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb 3:12). The word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Tim. 2:19), from ungodly men(1 Tim. 6:5), from the temple (Luke 2:27), from the body (2 Cor. 12:8) , and from persons (Acts 12:10; Luke 4:13).[2]
" It is with full assurance of proper exegetical study and with complete confidence in the original languages," concludes Daniel Davey, " that the word meaning of apostasia is defined as departure." [3] Paul Lee Tan adds the following:

What precisely does Paul mean when he says that " the falling away" (2:3) must come before the tribulation? The definite article " the" denotes that this will be a definite event, an event distinct from the appearance of the Man of Sin. The Greek word for " falling away" , taken by itself, does not mean religious apostasy or defection. Neither does the word mean " to fall," as the Greeks have another word for that. [pipto, I fall; TDI] The best translation of the word is " to depart." The apostle Paul refers here to a definite event which he calls " the departure," and which will occur just before the start of the tribulation. This is the rapture of the church.

So the word has the core meaning of departure and it depends upon the context to determine whether it is used to mean physical departure or an abstract departure such as departure from the faith.

Translation History of apostasia and Discessio:

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384 A.D.); Tyndale Bible (1526 A.D.); Coverdale Bible (1535 A.D.); Cranmer Bible (1539 A.D.); Breeches Bible (1576 A.D.); Beza Bible (1583 A.D.); Geneva Bible (1608 A.D.) .[5] This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.'" Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of " departure" in 1611 A.D.?[/b]

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given. [IMO and highly suspect, because of the RCC Amilliannial theology].


Quasar92
Debunked.
 
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Quasar92

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All of the above evaporates after the reading of one verse.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 

A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant.

The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Nobody will come to salvation outside of the New Covenant Church during a future time period.

The facts above are the Achilles Heel of modern Dispensational Theology.

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You expressed your unsupportable opinion that the OP I posted describing the difference between the rapture and the second coming of Christ "all evaporates after reading this one verse." Then you cite Rev.12:11.

FYI, Rev.12:11 has nothing at all to do with either the rapture or the second coming of Christ. It is a parenthetic passage pertaining to the tribulation saints, who are left behind when the Church is CAUGHT UP to be with the Lord in the air, recorded in 1 Thess.4:17.

Either prove your above opinions pertaining to the OP with Scriptural support, or they are false.

The following reveals the Scriptural delineation of events pertaining to the Church.


1 Thes.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In vs 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In vs 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.


Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!


Quasar92
 
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BABerean2

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You expressed your unsupportable opinion that the OP I posted describing the difference between the rapture and the second coming of Christ "all evaporates after reading this one verse." Then you cite Rev.12:11.

FYI, Rev.12:11 has nothing at all to do with either the rapture or the second coming of Christ. It is a parenthetic passage pertaining to the tribulation saints, who are left behind when the Church is CAUGHT UP to be with the Lord in the air, recorded in 1 Thess.4:17.

Either prove your above opinions pertaining to the OP with Scriptural support, or they are false.

The following reveals the Scriptural delineation of events pertaining to the Church.

The "Church" is made up of all those who accept Christ as their savior and are under the Blood of the Lamb.
Therefore, those in Revelation 12:11 must be members of the Church.


Give one passage of scripture that contains the phrase "tribulation saints".
It does not exist because it is an invention meant to make the pretrib doctrine work.


It is quite remarkable that passages which disprove the pretrib viewpoint are called a "parenthetic passage". This is another invention which attempts to make the pretrib doctrine work.

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Quasar92

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The "Church" is made up of all those who accept Christ as their savior and are under the Blood of the Lamb.
Therefore, those in Revelation 12:11 must be members of the Church.


Give one passage of scripture that contains the phrase "tribulation saints".
It does not exist because it is an invention meant to make the pretrib doctrine work.


It is quite remarkable that passages which disprove the pretrib viewpoint are called a "parenthetic passage". This is another invention which attempts to make the pretrib doctrine work.

.


What you are trying to promote, is making those who belong to Jesus, who will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER to meet Him in the air, recorded in 1 Thess.4:17 - the same as the non-believers who will be left behind, to go through the tribulation. Who will be brought to the Lord by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, recorded in Rev.7:1-17, during the tribulation - and pay for their testimony of Jesus with their lives, recorded in Rev.20:4. No matter how hard or how long you argue, they ARE NOT any part of the raptured Church. The difference is, the Church is one congregation, the tribulation martyrs/saints are another congregation. When Jesus establishes His Millennial Kingdom, they will at that time, become one congregation.


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BABerean2

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Who will be brought to the Lord by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, recorded in Rev.7:1-17, during the tribulation - and pay for their testimony of Jesus with their lives, recorded in Rev.20:4. No matter how hard or how long you argue, they ARE NOT any part of the raptured Church. The difference is, the Church is one congregation, the tribulation martyrs/saints are another congregation.

The Book of Revelation is a book of symbols.
We know the Lamb is always Christ and the dragon is always Satan.
Other symbols are defined for us in other parts of the New Testament.


Paul uses the words "firstfruits" and "virgin" as symbols of Christians, just as the same language is used to describe the 144,000 in the Book of Revelation.
Therefore, the 144,000 are members of the New Covenant Church.
This is confirmed by those under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11.



Rev 14:4  These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


Rom 16:5  Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ. 


2Co_11:2  For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

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Quasar92

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The Book of Revelation is a book of symbols.
We know the Lamb is always Christ and the dragon is always Satan.
Other symbols are defined for us in other parts of the New Testament.


Paul uses the words "firstfruits" and "virgin" as symbols of Christians, just as the same language is used to describe the 144,000 in the Book of Revelation.
Therefore, the 144,000 are members of the New Covenant Church.
This is confirmed by those under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11.



Rev 14:4  These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


Rom 16:5  Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ. 


2Co_11:2  For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

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There is nothing in your above rhetoric that abrogates a single thing posted in the OP. What, may I ask are you trying to prove?

The 144,000 Israelites are precisely who and what the Bible says they are, in the first place. In the second place, it is Jesus, who provided the information in Rev.7:1-17, to John, Paul has nothing to do with it. God will place them on earth as He will the two witnesses in Rev.11:2.


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jgr

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There is nothing in your above rhetoric that abrogates a single thing posted in the OP. What, may I ask are you trying to prove?

The 144,000 Israelites are precisely who and what the Bible says they are, in the first place. In the second place, it is Jesus, who provided the information in Rev.7:1-17, to John, Paul has nothing to do with it. God will place them on earth as He will the two witnesses in Rev.11:2.


Quasar92
The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number can be depicted as 12, representing faithful OT saints, one from each of the 12 tribes.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and oneness of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing the 12 apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20). The NT Church's inclusivity and oneness are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Thus we have...:
...when multiplied together, yielding 144,000 representing the Church through the ages in its fullness.

The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.
 
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Douggg

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Rapture/Translation versus the 2nd Coming/to Establish Kingdom

1. Translation of all believers. 1. No translation at all.
2. Translated saints go to heaven. 2. Translated saints return to earth.
3. Earth not judged. 3. Earth judged & righteousness established.
4. Imminent, any-moment. 4. Follows definite predicted signless signs
including tribulation.
5. Not in the Old Testament. 5. Predicted often in Old Testament.
6. Believers only. 6. Affects all men.
7. Before the day of wrath. 7 Concluding the day of wrath.
8. No reference to Satan. 8. Satan bound.
9. Christ comes for His own. 9. Christ comes with His own.
10. He comes in the air. 10. He comes to the earth.
11. He claims His bride. 11 He comes with His bride.
12. Only His own see Him. 12 Every eye shall see Him.
13. Tribulation begins. 13 Millennial Kingdom begins.
I agree with everything but item 13.... "tribulation begins". The term tribulation is not appropriate. And it is not known that the rapture immediately precedes the 70th week, nor the Day of the Lord.... although it certainly could..
 
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BABerean2

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it is Jesus, who provided the information in Rev.7:1-17, to John, Paul has nothing to do with it.

Everything that Paul recorded in scripture comes through the work of the Holy Spirit, after his encounter with Christ on the Road to Damascus.

Therefore, the words of Paul and the words of Christ in scripture must agree 100%

Surely, this fact was taught in the bible colleges that you attended.

Joh 14:26  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 

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Quasar92

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where does it say that?


It doesn't have to say that. All non-believers who are converted during the tribulation all belong to the one body of Christ, and become the one elect of God. Fufilling Jn.10:16.


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Another Lazarus

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Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.

All kindreds of the earth shall wail when they see Jesus coming with clouds to fetch His saints,
why ? Because deep inside the world knows they shall be left behind into the darkest era.
 
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BABerean2

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Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.

All kindreds of the earth shall wail when they see Jesus coming with clouds to fetch His saints,
why ? Because deep inside the world knows they shall be left behind into the darkest era.

The Parable of the Weeds

Mat 13:24  Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 

Mat 13:25  but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 

Mat 13:26  But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 

Mat 13:27  So the servants of the owner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?' 
Mat 13:28  He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, 'Do you want us then to go and gather them up?' 

Mat 13:29  But he said, 'No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 

Mat 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn." ' " 




The Parable of the Weeds Explained

Mat 13:36  Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field." 

Mat 13:37  He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 

Mat 13:38  The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 

Mat 13:39  The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 

Mat 13:40  Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 

Mat 13:41  The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 

Mat 13:42  and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 

Mat 13:43  Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! 


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