(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

stuart lawrence

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I used to believe exactly the same as you, exactly the same. But, there was something that bugged me. How can we all have it written on our hearts and minds, but there not be a standard? Wouldn't that mean, that we would all feel differently? Wouldn't that mean, that we would be justified based on our own interpretation? Wouldn't that take away the power from God, and put it into our own laps, and our own ability to judge what is right and wrong? We are supposed to be one, but yet, this way of thinking, gives way to 40,000 different denominations.

The Torah being written on our hearts, means that, we aren't doing it to brag about our righteousness, nor for justification, but because it weighs on our hearts, we desire to do it.
No, you would not be justified based on your own interpretation.
God himself THROUGH the holy Spirit writes the law in your mind and places it on your heart. It is NOT dependant on you!
Why do people differ in which laws are written on the mind and placed on the heart? If God puts the law in your mind, you instinctively know what that law is, for what is in your mind you in your mind must know. And the law in your heart, must bring heartfelt conviction you sin when you wilfully transgress it.
When you became a Christian, and God wrote the law in your mind and placed it in your heart, were you instinctively aware through that law you must observe a set Saturday sabbath? Or, were you only convicted to do that by reading what was written in ink in the OT?
Your conviction did not come from within, but by what you read
 
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GingerBeer

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Can you explain how it is possible for the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness to change without God's righteousness changing?
Yes. The way changes when the priesthood changes and that happens when the covenant changes.
 
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Emmy

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Dear DevinP. Jesus told us in Matthew 22: 35-40: The first Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself."
in verse 40 we are told: On these two Commandments hang ALL the Law and all then Prophets. God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters. These two Commandments say all what God wants us to know. There is nothing greater than Love, Love for God and love for our neighbour. ( all we know and all we meet)
The Bible tells us to give up all selfish thoughts and wishes, Love God with our hearts, souls, and minds.
Love is very catching, and before long, we shall be the men and women which God wants us to be. Love covers ALL wrong wishes and wants, Love will make us God`s loving children, and Love is stronger than all other wishes. The Law might be done away with, but LOVE covers all wishes which God wants from us.
Let us remember that God is Love, and God wants loving children. Let us try and turn this selfish world into a world, where God and Love will rule. Why not give it a serious TRY? I say this with love, DevinP.
Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
 
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stuart lawrence

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I used to believe exactly the same as you, exactly the same. But, there was something that bugged me. How can we all have it written on our hearts and minds, but there not be a standard? Wouldn't that mean, that we would all feel differently? Wouldn't that mean, that we would be justified based on our own interpretation? Wouldn't that take away the power from God, and put it into our own laps, and our own ability to judge what is right and wrong? We are supposed to be one, but yet, this way of thinking, gives way to 40,000 different denominations.

The Torah being written on our hearts, means that, we aren't doing it to brag about our righteousness, nor for justification, but because it weighs on our hearts, we desire to do it.
BTW
If you understand the outworking of the NC, according to your belief the Torah is written by God on the believers heart, you could accept NO ONE as a Christian unless they were conscious they committed sin by not observing Torah. For:
Through the law we become conscious if sin
Rom3:20
 
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Noxot

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I will still be sticking to the whole "those in the Spirit are not under the law because they fulfill the law spiritually and go beyond it since they are more than conquerors in Christ".

I just don't feel like stoning people to death for absurd reasons, sorry.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Matthew 5:19 - Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:19 was given unto Israelites prior to the Crucifixion.

Jewish Christians have always been required to keep the Law of Moses of their forefathers, for 2000 years (Acts 21:24).

Gentile-cum-Christians have always been required to keep the (50 AD Jerusalem Council interpretation of the) Laws of Noah for Righteous Gentiles (Acts 15, Gen 9).

Early Christianity was "bi-cameral", composed of a "House & Senate" (gentiles & Jews).

Simply stated, "different strokes for different folks". The Law of Moses for Jews, of Noah for every other nation (certainly up to 70 AD).
 
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lastofall

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[for me anyway] in the most simplest way to describe the matter is that what is right and wrong according to God never changes nor is diminished at all: but it is the ceremonies and rituals and formalism that under the New Covenant which is of none effect; but rather now the just shall live by faith, and no longer by the ceremonies and rituals of the law.
 
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friend of

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Galatians 2:19-21

[19] For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God

[20]
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

[21] I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


The righteous shall live by faith
 
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A_Thinker

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Can you explain how it is possible for the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness to change without God's righteousness changing?

The basis of the Law is always the same ... Love God, and Love your fellowman.

But the outworking of this LOVE may be different depending upon what God is doing at the time (i.e. at what stage He is in His plan).

For instance, prior to the coming of the Messiah, Judaism didn't do a lot of proselytizing.

In Jesus' message to His followers, however, He said ... "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; ..."
 
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A_Thinker

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I used to believe exactly the same as you, exactly the same. But, there was something that bugged me. How can we all have it written on our hearts and minds, but there not be a standard? Wouldn't that mean, that we would all feel differently? Wouldn't that mean, that we would be justified based on our own interpretation?

Not if God does the writing, which He said He would do ...
 
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A_Thinker

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For those who do not believe that God's methodology ever changes, ... how do you interpret the following OT passage ...

Isaiah 43

18 Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.

19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.

... and this NT passage, from Hebrews 8 ...

6 But now Jesus has obtained a superior ministry, since the covenant that he mediates is also better and is enacted on better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, no one would have looked for a second one.

8 But showing its fault, God says to them, “Look, the days are coming, says the Lord,when I will complete a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

9 “It will not be like the covenant that I made with their fathers,on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not continue in my covenant and I had no regard for them, says the Lord.

10 “For this is the covenant that I will establish with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and I will inscribe them on their hearts. And I will be their God and they will be my people.

11 “And there will be no need at all for each one to teach his countryman or each one to teach his brother saying, Know the Lord, since they will all know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 “For I will be merciful toward their evil deeds, and their sins I will remember no longer.

13 When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear.
 
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A_Thinker

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Would you prefer being married to a wife that knew what upset you, but didn't love you enough to avoid those things? And instead, out of a desire to not be hindered, did whatever pleased her, despite you telling her how you felt?

Such would be an example of NOT following the Spirit of love ...
 
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Lily of Valleys

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How can we all have it written on our hearts and minds, but there not be a standard? Wouldn't that mean, that we would all feel differently? Wouldn't that mean, that we would be justified based on our own interpretation? Wouldn't that take away the power from God, and put it into our own laps, and our own ability to judge what is right and wrong?
There is a standard, and that standard is set by God, not decided by humans.

The way I see it, there are three types of self-proclaimed Christians:

(1) Natural men, those do not have the Holy Spirit
(2) Men of flesh, infants in Christ
(3) Those who live by the Holy Spirit and walk by the Holy Spirit

Only the third type of people are able to make sound judgment of what is right or wrong according to the standard of God.

For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.


(1 Corinthians 2:10-16 NASB)​
 
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Lee Stuvmen

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Jesus says in Matthew chapter 5:

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Until one understands what THE LAW WAS/IS, how can one understand Jesus' words?

So WHAT IS the LAW Jesus spoke of?

There were TWO LAWS at the time Jesus walked upon the earth.

The FIRST LAW was written by the finger of God.

The LETTER of the Law was
THOU SHALT NOT kill.

The SPIRIT of the Law was;
LOVE

IF you LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR would you;
KILL THEM
BEAR FALSE WITNESS against them
STEAL from them.


We are told in Scripture that GOD IS LOVE.

What would be the LAW in a Kingdom ruled by LOVE?

To love?

THIS LAW Jesus fulfilled!
John 13:1
Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.




The SECOND LAW was written by the hand of Moses.

The SECOND LAW did not offer grace, but ONLY CONDEMNATION if the FIRST LAW was broken.

Galatians 3:19
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.




So here is the choice;
Live by the SPIRIT OF THE LAW AND LOVE

Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.



Romans 13:8
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Romans 13:10
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.




Or DIE under MOSAIC LAW
James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Have you broken just one mosaic law?

All must answer yes.

What sense is there attempting to keep a law that you have already broken
and therefore now stand guilty before God?

Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Romans 5:20
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:


So choose wisely;

Mosaic Law, or
Christ's Grace


Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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For instance, prior to the coming of the Messiah, Judaism didn't do a lot of proselytizing.

Matthew 23:15

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.
 
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A_Thinker

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Matthew 23:15

Certainly, not a citation of activity of God's instigation.

Is there any command from God for Israel to proselytize ?

Also, I didn't say that there was no prosetylizing, ... but, generally, Judaism sees itself as a non-proselytizing faith.
 
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Devin P

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Until one understands what THE LAW WAS/IS, how can one understand Jesus' words?

So WHAT IS the LAW Jesus spoke of?

There were TWO LAWS at the time Jesus walked upon the earth.

The FIRST LAW was written by the finger of God.

The LETTER of the Law was
THOU SHALT NOT kill.

The SPIRIT of the Law was;
LOVE

IF you LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR would you;
KILL THEM
BEAR FALSE WITNESS against them
STEAL from them.
Jesus never once sinned. On any level. Yet:

Deuteronomy 4:2 - 2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

So, we see here, that if Jesus would have changed the meaning of the law, He would've been guilty of sin. Does that make sense? Did our Savior sin? No. Because He didn't do away with the law, He simply revealed the deeper meaning behind the law. This is why David was forgiven for murder, because He was gifted and saw ahead, to the true meaning of the law. This is why Moses was justified, because He had faith in God, and loved the Father, instead of fearing Him as the rest of Israel did at the time. This is why Abraham was justified, because He had faith in the Father. This is why Noah was justified after getting drunken, because he had faith in his Father. All of these people had the law, yet they understood God's love and forgiveness and mercy. How would this be possible without the supposed "second law"? It wouldn't be. But most importantly, our Savior, would have been guilty of sin. I implore you to see, that the meaning of Jesus saying I desire mercy, not sacrifice, is because He never desired the sacrifices men were giving up. He desired men to read the scriptures, and to believe them. They all teach us that a savior is coming, to justify us. It's right there, plainly in His word, yet people still feel that they will get justification by the law, when this isn't so. The law is and never was for our justification, but how we show our love. As Jesus says, I show the world I love the Father, because as He gives me commandment, even so I do.

So here is the choice;
Live by the SPIRIT OF THE LAW AND LOVE

Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
This is absolutely true, because circumcision is of the heart (something you desire, and long for) and when you do it, it's for the praise of your Father, not of man. That is the difference, because you can't follow the law justly, if you're doing it so men awe at how righteous you are. It has to be because you love God, and want to do as He commands you, because it's on your heart, and you desire Him and His judgements.

Or DIE under MOSAIC LAW
James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Have you broken just one mosaic law?

All must answer yes.

What sense is there attempting to keep a law that you have already broken
and therefore now stand guilty before God?
Because we show that we love Him, by keeping His commands. I don't keep the law to be saved. That'd be following the letter. I don't keep the law to be saved, I keep it because I feel it's something He wants me to do, based on reading the scriptures. Too many things don't add up for me to NOT keep the law. People say that Moses gave the law, and before that no one had the law, therefore God changes, because God gives His law to some, and not others, but if you read through Genesis, all of Genesis states otherwise. Noah offered up burnt sacrifices according to the law, with clean animals. Cain and Abel gave a tithe of first fruits. Abraham was stated to have kept the laws Genesis 26:5, and gave burnt offerings according to the law, with a Ram (a clean animal), it goes on and on and on these examples attesting to the fact that God's law always was. Yet, even though in Genesis 26:5, Abraham kept the laws statutes, judgements and commands, he was still justified by faith. So was David, so was Moses, so were all the Patriarchs of Israel, as were all of the prophets. They looked forward to Jesus, which even Jesus Himself says, all of the early scriptures attest to Him. What Jesus came to do, was to call us to what the scriptures show us. That even though it talks of a law, the purpose of that law was to get us to know that we needed a savior, and that the early scriptures all tell of Him. Whether it's in genealogies, prophecies, regardless, it's everywhere, and people chose to place faith in themselves, and not in God, as I once did, but am not any longer.

So choose wisely;

Mosaic Law, or
Christ's Grace


Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

I'm not choosing between the two, they are one in the same. The grace of God didn't free me from the law, it punished me from the curse of the law, and from the punishment therein. Not the law itself. Is the law of God sin? No, it's righteousness, and holy, it is peace, and it gives life. Following it, has blessed me, immensely, and I do it, not for salvation. I do it, not for justification, but out of love, faith, and hope for, and in my Father. Jesus Himself says that He came NOT to destroy the law, but to fulfill it, and that the law wouldn't pass until heaven and earth pass away. Both heaven and earth are still here, therefore so is the law. Even then, when in heaven, the law will not be gone. We will still be following it, but because there will be no sin, there will be no need for the law, because we won't be capable of transgressing it.
 
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Devin P

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Jews had always kept the saturday sabbath and it is natural the custom was continued. However, in rom14:5 Paul states:
One man considers one day more sacred/ holy than another, another man considers everyday alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

Paul circumcised timothy BECAUSE of the Jews in that area.

Those who want to make a good impression outwardly are trying to compel you to be circumcised gal6:12
Clearly Paul did not believe you need to be circumcised.
Years after the council of Jerusalem made the decision to only ask gentiles to observe four Jewish laws they RECONFIRMED to Paul their decision to ask gentiles to observe no more than four Jewish laws. So they had no intention of, as time went on asking gentiles to obey more laws.
Gods laws are not arbitrary, you cannot be free to follow some and ignore others. No one has a licence to sin under the NC. Any law God desires you to obey cannot be ignored.
If the NT church believed God desired gentiles to obey more laws, they would have had to have included them in Acts ch 15.
No need to apologise


You say that no one is given a license to sin, yet the only thing sin is ever described as, is a transgression of the law, therefore, doing away with all of the laws, for only 4 man-made laws, would be giving them a license to sin. Those 4, were for new converts, so they weren't overloaded with things right off. I'm a torah observant believer, but trust me when I say, learning all of His ways, is overwhelming. There's so much to take in, and I can definitely understand having it given in chunks like that. But you have to understand, those 4, weren't meant to be their ONLY observances, those 4, are a bare minimum requirement for fellowship. If someone doesn't keep to those 4 things, we can't fellowship with them. We can pray for them, but to fellowship with them is a different story, as it's written.
 
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DamianWarS

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Pleroo:
  1. to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

In Matthew 5:17, Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law and then proceeded to fulfill is six times throughout the rest of the chapter by causing God's will (as made known in the Law) to be obeyed as it should be. In Galatians 5:14, it says that loving your neighbor fulfills the entire law, so everyone since Moses who has loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, meaning that it does not refer to something unique that Jesus did. Likewise, Galatians 6:2 says that bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, which does not refer to doing away with it, but to obeying it as it should be. In Romans 15:18-19, it says that Paul fulfilled the Law, which again does not refer to doing away with it, but to causing the Gentiles to come to full obedience to it by word and by deed as it should be. So do answer you questions, the Law has been fulfilled by countless people that the product of a fulfilled law is obedience to it as it should be.

let me quote to you another definition of the same lexicon
"pleroo: II. B. i. to make complete in every particular, to render perfect"

of course you misrepresent the lexicon definition. It's not "1. to fulfil...." letting us think this is the only and final definition, its "II. C. iii. to fulfil..." being the bottom-most of all the sub definitions. It's makes me question your motives and overall credibility as it seems to me you looked over a list of 12 points and picked the one that best suit your perspective which is highly irresponsible.

The word concretely means "to make full" or "to fill up". The verb is in the aorist state which means it is being referenced as a completed action so "[already] made full" or "[already] filled up" would be consistent but also "fulfilled" since this is being used more abstractly and flows better in English. In NT use it dominantly shows us a context where Christ is acting on something with intention, that is meant for him only and him completing said action is the act of him filling it, requiring him not to repeat it or for another to do it again.

Laws can be obeyed over and over but prophesies are far more specific. Perhaps obedience can be argued but once said obedience is complete so is the prophecy. Jesus makes no distinction between the law and the prophets and this type of expression usually is intended for the entirety of the jewish scripture not just the levitical law stuff; However one is interpreted so must the other. "obedience" is simply insufficient for the scope of prophecy when the completion of the prophecy is omitted. If Christ completes prophecy, then it is finished and does not need to be completed again, and again... so too the fate of the law. Did you ever consider that the law is a type of prophecy for Christ as well?
 
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