Abraham question.

ShamashUruk

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Abraham (Abram) is mentioned in Genesis 11:27 as I know, and he comes from Ur. And then in Genesis 11:30 we see a departure from Ur of Chaldean's which is Ur we can reference below as such:

Sumerian it is Urim or URIM-2-KI and URIM-5-KI of course KI means earth in Sumerian and Urim refers to Ur; Ur of Chaldeas much later on.

Akkadian it is Uru.

And today it is located in Tell el-Muqayyar alongside a Ziggurat.

This would then denote that Abraham is Sumerian, however the name of the patriarch 'abram' is a common stock of West Semitic name known since the beginning of the second millennium BCE.

It is a contracted form of 'iibiram (HALAT 9; DE VAUX 1968:11; I Kgs 16:32; Num 16:1; 26:9; Ps 106:17), written abrn in Ugarit (KTU 4.352:2,4 =IA-bi-ra-mul;; PRU 3,20; 5,85:10: 107:8, cf. also Mari, H. B. HUFFMO AbraJuim is an extended form of 'abram. The extension is rather due to reverence and distinction than dialectic variance.

In historical times, tradition-enfirmed by folkloristic etymology (Gen 17:5; Neh 9:7)-knew the patriarch only by his name 'abraJuim (Mic 7:20; Ps 47:10 etc.). At one time the patriarchs were interpreted as local Canaanite deities, or in terms of astral myth.

Particularly Abrnham. since he was; associated with centres of the Mesopotamian -moon cult (Ur and -Haran).-Sarah was equated with the moon-goddess and Abraham's father -Terah with the moon (= Yerah).

Though in biblical tradition, there are allusions to the ancient cults of Abraham's place of origin (Josh 24:2), Tracing the origins of Abraham within the complicated traditions of the Pentateuch is extremely difficult.

Pentateuch traditions picture him as the founder of a number of cult-places Abraham has an important place as far as gender law is considered in the ancient Hebraic sense, as the wife has limited jurisdiction and Sarah has to get authority from Abraham to chastise Hagar.

Abraham is presented in the Bible as having come from Mesopotamia. The descendants of Abraham spent centuries in Egypt and then came to dwell in the midst of a Canaanite civilization. The language spoken by the Israelite's is historically related to the languages of the Semitic world around them. Copies of ancient Near Eastern literature have been discovered in the excavations of Israelite cities.

So Abraham to reiterate is Common Stock West Semitic name, while Ur is Sumerian, the Sumerian's are Pre Semitic aggulganative speaking culture.

So why the reference in Biblical mythologies to Abram as Semitic, when Abram comes from Ur making him Sumerian and not Semitic? Also, why the improper name as Sumerian's are not West Semitic people and are Pre Semitic? Did monotheist sectarian's not realize this?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Abraham (Abram) is mentioned in Genesis 11:27 as I know, and he comes from Ur. And then in Genesis 11:30 we see a departure from Ur of Chaldean's which is Ur we can reference below as such:

Sumerian it is Urim or URIM-2-KI and URIM-5-KI of course KI means earth in Sumerian and Urim refers to Ur; Ur of Chaldeas much later on.

Akkadian it is Uru.

And today it is located in Tell el-Muqayyar alongside a Ziggurat.

This would then denote that Abraham is Sumerian, however the name of the patriarch 'abram' is a common stock of West Semitic name known since the beginning of the second millennium BCE.

It is a contracted form of 'iibiram (HALAT 9; DE VAUX 1968:11; I Kgs 16:32; Num 16:1; 26:9; Ps 106:17), written abrn in Ugarit (KTU 4.352:2,4 =IA-bi-ra-mul;; PRU 3,20; 5,85:10: 107:8, cf. also Mari, H. B. HUFFMO AbraJuim is an extended form of 'abram. The extension is rather due to reverence and distinction than dialectic variance.

In historical times, tradition-enfirmed by folkloristic etymology (Gen 17:5; Neh 9:7)-knew the patriarch only by his name 'abraJuim (Mic 7:20; Ps 47:10 etc.). At one time the patriarchs were interpreted as local Canaanite deities, or in terms of astral myth.

Particularly Abrnham. since he was; associated with centres of the Mesopotamian -moon cult (Ur and -Haran).-Sarah was equated with the moon-goddess and Abraham's father -Terah with the moon (= Yerah).

Though in biblical tradition, there are allusions to the ancient cults of Abraham's place of origin (Josh 24:2), Tracing the origins of Abraham within the complicated traditions of the Pentateuch is extremely difficult.

Pentateuch traditions picture him as the founder of a number of cult-places Abraham has an important place as far as gender law is considered in the ancient Hebraic sense, as the wife has limited jurisdiction and Sarah has to get authority from Abraham to chastise Hagar.

Abraham is presented in the Bible as having come from Mesopotamia. The descendants of Abraham spent centuries in Egypt and then came to dwell in the midst of a Canaanite civilization. The language spoken by the Israelite's is historically related to the languages of the Semitic world around them. Copies of ancient Near Eastern literature have been discovered in the excavations of Israelite cities.

So Abraham to reiterate is Common Stock West Semitic name, while Ur is Sumerian, the Sumerian's are Pre Semitic aggulganative speaking culture.

So why the reference in Biblical mythologies to Abram as Semitic, when Abram comes from Ur making him Sumerian and not Semitic? Also, why the improper name as Sumerian's are not West Semitic people and are Pre Semitic? Did monotheist sectarian's not realize this?

The most popular dating of Abraham is during the Ur III period, during the Neo-Sumerian Empire, following the Akkadian period. Akkadian is an East Semitic language, so Semitic peoples had been part of Mesopotamia long before Abraham supposedly lived.

It also doesn't seem terribly difficult for me to imagine that the oral history of Abraham would have been molded through Hebrew; thus what we have is the Hebraicized name.

These statements are rooted in the presumption of an historical Abraham. And I realize the scholarly difficulties which Abraham presents.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ShamashUruk

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The most popular dating of Abraham is during the Ur III period, during the Neo-Sumerian Empire, following the Akkadian period. Akkadian is an East Semitic language, so Semitic peoples had been part of Mesopotamia long before Abraham supposedly lived.

It also doesn't seem terribly difficult for me to imagine that the oral history of Abraham would have been molded through Hebrew; thus what we have is the Hebraicized name.

These statements are rooted in the presumption of an historical Abraham. And I realize the scholarly difficulties which Abraham presents.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes I have heard this before, however, Sumerian's (to the South) speak a Pre Semitic aggulagnative language, while Akkadian's (to the North) invent ultimately the first Semitic mother tongue.

So we have a laguage debocle here, as we see a derivative of loan words from Sumer used in Semitic tongue. For example in the Lord of Aratta and Enmerkar a Neo Sumerian Cuneiform about 2100 BCE we see the Lord of Aratta’s prompt identification of markings on a piece of dried clay with wedges or nails (Sumerian g a g) correlates with the Akkadian words sikkatu “peg, nail,” miḫiṣtu “stroke, cuneiform wedge” (Sumerian g u - š u m2 ), and santakku “triangle, wedge” (Sumerian s a n t a k ), and with the expression tikip santakki “cuneiform sign.”

Likewise, in modern times, scholars have dubbed the writing system “cuneiform,” similarly alluding to the shape of the characters (Latin cuneus “wedge,” plus forma “form”). Hence we even see loan words from Sumerian writings onto Akkadian Cuneiform.

The 3rd Dynasty of Ur is about 2200-2100 BCE (depending on which references you use) we see the first glimpses of Abram about Genesis 11:27 using this timeline it is about and closely related to Genesis verse 11, which correlates to the Babylonian tower epic, and is about 2100 BCE. Meaning that while Abram is written about in Genesis 11 and there is a correlating Babel epic composed, it would appear that Abram's corresponds to the beginning of the Babel epic, wherein the language is changed.

Two things make this interesting, the first being that Ziggurat's of Babylon epic, is also found earlier in the Sumerian epic wherein "The building of this tower (temple) highly offended the gods. In a night they (threw down) what man had built, and impeded their progress. They were scattered abroad, and their speech was strange." And also "Enki confuser of languages" epic, as Enki in a much earlier Cuneiform writing changes or splits the language, the translation is completed by Sam Noah Kramer.

Also, this would then be inappropriate to consider Abram a Hebraic name at all, though it is a Common Stock West Semitic name. Reason being is that the Israelite's spoke a Canaanite language, thus the language developed. Hence the proposition that the name Abram is adopted in Hebrew, not many linguists would argue that Hebrew language is not Canaanite language, but I would state that Hebrew language being Semitic based is definitely not Sumerian language in sum.

Right, to your last statement, it is difficult to establish an Abram at all. But, the Abrahamic character could have traces in the Sumerian King's list, but a study would need to be conducted.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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Abraham (Abram) is mentioned in Genesis 11:27 as I know, and he comes from Ur. And then in Genesis 11:30 we see a departure from Ur of Chaldean's which is Ur we can reference below as such:

Sumerian it is Urim or URIM-2-KI and URIM-5-KI of course KI means earth in Sumerian and Urim refers to Ur; Ur of Chaldeas much later on.

Akkadian it is Uru.

And today it is located in Tell el-Muqayyar alongside a Ziggurat.

This would then denote that Abraham is Sumerian, however the name of the patriarch 'abram' is a common stock of West Semitic name known since the beginning of the second millennium BCE.

It is a contracted form of 'iibiram (HALAT 9; DE VAUX 1968:11; I Kgs 16:32; Num 16:1; 26:9; Ps 106:17), written abrn in Ugarit (KTU 4.352:2,4 =IA-bi-ra-mul;; PRU 3,20; 5,85:10: 107:8, cf. also Mari, H. B. HUFFMO AbraJuim is an extended form of 'abram. The extension is rather due to reverence and distinction than dialectic variance.

In historical times, tradition-enfirmed by folkloristic etymology (Gen 17:5; Neh 9:7)-knew the patriarch only by his name 'abraJuim (Mic 7:20; Ps 47:10 etc.). At one time the patriarchs were interpreted as local Canaanite deities, or in terms of astral myth.

Particularly Abrnham. since he was; associated with centres of the Mesopotamian -moon cult (Ur and -Haran).-Sarah was equated with the moon-goddess and Abraham's father -Terah with the moon (= Yerah).

Though in biblical tradition, there are allusions to the ancient cults of Abraham's place of origin (Josh 24:2), Tracing the origins of Abraham within the complicated traditions of the Pentateuch is extremely difficult.

Pentateuch traditions picture him as the founder of a number of cult-places Abraham has an important place as far as gender law is considered in the ancient Hebraic sense, as the wife has limited jurisdiction and Sarah has to get authority from Abraham to chastise Hagar.

Abraham is presented in the Bible as having come from Mesopotamia. The descendants of Abraham spent centuries in Egypt and then came to dwell in the midst of a Canaanite civilization. The language spoken by the Israelite's is historically related to the languages of the Semitic world around them. Copies of ancient Near Eastern literature have been discovered in the excavations of Israelite cities.

So Abraham to reiterate is Common Stock West Semitic name, while Ur is Sumerian, the Sumerian's are Pre Semitic aggulganative speaking culture.

So why the reference in Biblical mythologies to Abram as Semitic, when Abram comes from Ur making him Sumerian and not Semitic? Also, why the improper name as Sumerian's are not West Semitic people and are Pre Semitic? Did monotheist sectarian's not realize this?


Generally, a lot of your proclamations here are theories presented by largely uncontested authors.

You are introducing a lot of mythologies here, which have some use, but using those against such a fine set of books as the Books of Moses is absurd.

Mythologies are just that. Largely incoherent and so very little evidence. Whereas, the Books of Moses are exceedingly clear, despite how ancient they are.


Otherwise, I see you as effectively wishing to discuss 'how many angels can fit on the head of a pin', which is ancient Christian slang for "much ado about nothing just to be religious appearing to one's peers".

I would hazard a guess you have some anti-Jewish beliefs from the direction you are going.

Facts are strong and true from God Himself that Isaac is the chosen one, and the story of the rejected child is true. No shame in it. His fate was as the fate of all others.


We can look today on lands from the rejected child and see, because of their rejection of Isaac, how God has rejected them.
 
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ShamashUruk

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Generally, a lot of your proclamations here are theories presented by largely uncontested authors.

You are introducing a lot of mythologies here, which have some use, but using those against such a fine set of books as the Books of Moses is absurd.

Mythologies are just that. Largely incoherent and so very little evidence. Whereas, the Books of Moses are exceedingly clear, despite how ancient they are.


Otherwise, I see you as effectively wishing to discuss 'how many angels can fit on the head of a pin', which is ancient Christian slang for "much ado about nothing just to be religious appearing to one's peers".

I would hazard a guess you have some anti-Jewish beliefs from the direction you are going.

Facts are strong and true from God Himself that Isaac is the chosen one, and the story of the rejected child is true. No shame in it. His fate was as the fate of all others.


We can look today on lands from the rejected child and see, because of their rejection of Isaac, how God has rejected them.

I am unaware of what you mean by "uncontested authors"? As in no one has challenged these authors?

I don't know what you mean by "mythologies", so in academic circles the term "myth" even refers to Biblical mythologies. If I wanted to be offensive I'd use the term folklore.

I am not sure what you mean by "little evidence", you should research your Bible, Abraham does come from Ur there is no "myth" about that, go look in your bible. If Abraham did exist he would have left Ur to go to Canaan, then you should do a study on Ur itself its history and you'll find that Ur is a Sumerian city.

Also, many of the authors I refer to are in the field of linguistics, archaeology, assyriology, philanthrophy, and so on. I'd like to know how the "uncontested author's" that study in the fields of Semitic languages, histories and people of the bible are introducing mythologies.

Here, test it, the word "Tevah" doesn't equal "Gopher wood" in the building of the biblical ark of noah, go look up the word Tevah:

Strong's Hebrew: 8429. תְּוַהּ (tevah) -- to be startled or alarmed

"Genesis 6:14–16:
Make yourself an ark (tēvāh) of gopher wood [came the instruction]; make rooms (qinnīm) in the ark, and cover it (kāpar) inside and out with pitch (kopher). This is how you are to make it: the length of the ark three hundred cubits, its width fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits. Make a roof for the ark, and finish it to a cubit
above; and put the door of the ark in its side; make it with lower, second, and third decks."

The biblical word tēvāh, which is used for the arks of Noah and Moses, occurs nowhere else in the Hebrew Bible. The flood and baby episodes are thus deliberately associated and linked in Hebrew just as the Atrahasis and Sargon Arks are linked associatively in Babylonia.
Now for something extraordinary: no one knows what language tēvāh is or what it means. The word for the wood, gopher, is likewise used nowhere else in the Hebrew Bible and no one knows what language or what kind of wood it is.
This is a peculiar state of affairs for one of the most famous and influential paragraphs in all of the world’s writing!
The associated words kopher, ‘bitumen’, and kāphar, ‘to smear on’, are also to be found nowhere else in the Hebrew Bible, but, significantly, they came from Babylonia with the narrative itself, deriving from Akkadian kupru, ‘bitumen’, and kapāru, ‘to smear on’. In view of this it is logical to expect that tēvāh and gopher are
similarly loanwords from Babylonian Akkadian into Hebrew, but there has been no convincing candidate for either word. Suggestions have been made for gopher-wood, but the identification, or the non-Hebrew word that lies behind it, remains open.
Ideas have also been put forward over the centuries concerning the word tēvāh, some linking it – because Moses was in Egypt – with the ancient Egyptian word thebet, meaning ‘box’ or ‘coffin’, but these have ended nowhere. The most likely explanation is that tēvāh, like other ark words, reflects a Babylonian word.


Irving Finkel- The Ark before Noah

No I don't think I'm appearing to be religious, I'm explaining the Bible and its origins. And I have a strong affinity for the Jews, but they where your Bible starts, technically the ancient Israelite's. Facts are facts and we should explore facts.
 
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