(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

Devin P · Sep 8, 2017

Jesus says in Matthew chapter 5:

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

In verse 18, He says that not until heaven and earth pass, shall the law have to be removed. Heaven and earth are still here, so not only does this mean that the law is still meant to be obeyed. In verse 19, He says that whoever shall refrain from the law, and teach others to do the same will be called the least in the kingdom, but whoever keeps the law, and teaches others to do the same, will be called great. Then in verse 20:

20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

This is saying that, the righteousness of the Pharisees, was by the letter, and not of faith. So, in order to have more righteousness than a Pharisee, one must only believe, and trust in God. But, we are to still keep the laws as the Pharisees said to, as stated by Jesus here: Matthew 23:1-3 - 1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

He is saying that the Pharisees teach the law of Moses, and that His disciples are to obey and to keep that law. To listen to them, because they preach the law of Moses, but only not to do as they do, because they place their faith in justification in themselves, and in man, not in God.

The law was never done away with, because it's displaying the Character of God. God cannot change. What is sin against Him yesterday, is sin against Him today and forever. Satan has infiltrated us, and caused us to view the law as sinful, which it is not. Jesus literally tells us that it isn't to pass until after judgement. We are to keep the law, but out of faith. I don't mean, out of faith the way the world says out of faith, I mean, that by having faith that God will justify you when you fail at it. Because you will. This knowing of your impossibility to keep the law shouldn't deter you from desiring to keep it. Romans 7 is a testament to that. The whole chapter is about him struggling to keep the laws of God, because his flesh and spirit are constantly warring one against the other. As we do today.

The doctrinal teaching of all grace and no law, isn't biblical. Abraham was justified by faith, but still kept the law. Genesis 26:5

Noah knew about clean and unclean animals Genesis 7:2
He even sacrificed a burnt offering on an altar, and only used clean animals to offer up: Genesis 8:20

Abraham also sacrificed a clean animal for a burnt offering to God, Genesis 22:13. It's not the law of Moses, it's the law of God, and it is never changing, because God is never changing. Abraham, although he was justified by faith, still kept the law of God. Genesis 26:5

The law was in fact a shadow, but only because through it, a lot of men thought that they were justified, when in fact, God is the only one who can justify. All of the bible is written about Israel. Israel, are God's children. They are those that have faith in God to justify, and be merciful, while they keep and uphold His laws. That is quite literally, every single great man ever written about in the bible. They struggled to keep the laws, while being strengthened by a sound faith in God. Moses was subject to the law, but saw and talked with God because of faith. David was to keep the law, but was justified by faith. Abraham was to keep it, but was justified by faith, Noah was to keep it, but was justified by faith. The prophets were to keep it, but were justified by faith. Jesus, was to keep it, and did. He was justified by the law, because He is the law. He is the word made flesh.

People try to say that people after Moses were the only ones to have known the law, but this biblically speaking, isn't so. It can be shown, over and over again throughout the pre-exodus scriptures. Even when Lot was visited by the Angels of the Lord. What type of bread did he offer up to Them? Genesis 19:3 - Unleavened bread. How would he have known to offer up to this being, unleavened bread if it weren't for the law? How about how just a chapter previously, where Abraham gave the Angel of the Lord a grain offering Genesis 18:6? These things were written about first with Moses, but they didn't originate there. The offerings, were done away with in Jesus, but not the laws themselves. The keeping of the 7th day Sabbath, the keeping of the Feast days, they are to remain until the end of time.

Besides, the feast days should be something we should want to celebrate. They all point to Jesus. All of them. Jesus has already fulfilled the first 4, and the last three He will come to fulfill as well. The very next one He has to fulfill is the feast of Trumpets. He will come during that time. No one knows exactly the day or the hour, but we know the season. It will happen in the fall, but because of Satan's influence, we don't know the exact day, or hour, only the season. Revelations says that Jesus will come when the last trumpet sounds, and the feast of trumpets, is one of the 3 feast days He hasn't yet fulfilled. The last two deal with separation of good and bad seed, and the reunion of God with His children. Both things, that Jesus will fulfill after He returns. Instead, we follow man-made tradition, and celebrate the evolution of the feast of Saturnalia (Christmas) Although, I'll save you from reading about this, as I'll make another thread about the pagan origins of modern-day holidays we observe today. This thread is long enough haha. God bless, brothers and sisters. May the work and deception of Satan not deceive you from keeping, speaking, and living in truth.

RDKirk · Sep 8, 2017

Some points about the Mosaic Covenant:

1. If you place yourself under the Mosaic Covenant on any point, you are under the Mosaic Covenant on every point. Nowhere in scripture is the Mosaic Covenant ever divided, nowhere is anyone considered under only one part of the Mosaic Covenant or another part of the Mosaic Covenant.

2. The only forgiveness of sin under the Mosaic Covenant was by animal sacrifice at the temple on the altar. There is no other way to be forgiven under the Mosaic Covenant. If you are not making animal sacrifices at the temple, there is no forgiveness of your sins under the Mosaic Covenant. Because the temple has been destroyed, everyone who continues to cling to the Mosaic Covenant will die in his sin.

That's why scripture tells us:

But Jesus has now obtained a superior ministry, and to that degree He is the mediator of a better covenant, which has been legally enacted on better promises.
...
By saying, a new covenant, He has declared that the first is old. And what is old and aging is about to disappear. -- Hebrews 8

The reason it says "about to disappear" is because at the time of the writing of Hebrews, the temple had not yet been destroyed. With the destruction of the temple, there is now no other forgiveness of sins except by the covenant of Jesus.

stuart lawrence · Sep 8, 2017

Devin P said:
Jesus says in Matthew chapter 5:

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

In verse 18, He says that not until heaven and earth pass, shall the law have to be removed. Heaven and earth are still here, so not only does this mean that the law is still meant to be obeyed. In verse 19, He says that whoever shall refrain from the law, and teach others to do the same will be called the least in the kingdom, but whoever keeps the law, and teaches others to do the same, will be called great. Then in verse 20:

20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

This is saying that, the righteousness of the Pharisees, was by the letter, and not of faith. So, in order to have more righteousness than a Pharisee, one must only believe, and trust in God. But, we are to still keep the laws as the Pharisees said to, as stated by Jesus here: Matthew 23:1-3 - 1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

He is saying that the Pharisees teach the law of Moses, and that His disciples are to obey and to keep that law. To listen to them, because they preach the law of Moses, but only not to do as they do, because they place their faith in justification in themselves, and in man, not in God.

The law was never done away with, because it's displaying the Character of God. God cannot change. What is sin against Him yesterday, is sin against Him today and forever. Satan has infiltrated us, and caused us to view the law as sinful, which it is not. Jesus literally tells us that it isn't to pass until after judgement. We are to keep the law, but out of faith. I don't mean, out of faith the way the world says out of faith, I mean, that by having faith that God will justify you when you fail at it. Because you will. This knowing of your impossibility to keep the law shouldn't deter you from desiring to keep it. Romans 7 is a testament to that. The whole chapter is about him struggling to keep the laws of God, because his flesh and spirit are constantly warring one against the other. As we do today.

The doctrinal teaching of all grace and no law, isn't biblical. Abraham was justified by faith, but still kept the law. Genesis 26:5

Noah knew about clean and unclean animals Genesis 7:2
He even sacrificed a burnt offering on an altar, and only used clean animals to offer up: Genesis 8:20

Abraham also sacrificed a clean animal for a burnt offering to God, Genesis 22:13. It's not the law of Moses, it's the law of God, and it is never changing, because God is never changing. Abraham, although he was justified by faith, still kept the law of God. Genesis 26:5

The law was in fact a shadow, but only because through it, a lot of men thought that they were justified, when in fact, God is the only one who can justify. All of the bible is written about Israel. Israel, are God's children. They are those that have faith in God to justify, and be merciful, while they keep and uphold His laws. That is quite literally, every single great man ever written about in the bible. They struggled to keep the laws, while being strengthened by a sound faith in God. Moses was subject to the law, but saw and talked with God because of faith. David was to keep the law, but was justified by faith. Abraham was to keep it, but was justified by faith, Noah was to keep it, but was justified by faith. The prophets were to keep it, but were justified by faith. Jesus, was to keep it, and did. He was justified by the law, because He is the law. He is the word made flesh.

People try to say that people after Moses were the only ones to have known the law, but this biblically speaking, isn't so. It can be shown, over and over again throughout the pre-exodus scriptures. Even when Lot was visited by the Angels of the Lord. What type of bread did he offer up to Them? Genesis 19:3 - Unleavened bread. How would he have known to offer up to this being, unleavened bread if it weren't for the law? How about how just a chapter previously, where Abraham gave the Angel of the Lord a grain offering Genesis 18:6? These things were written about first with Moses, but they didn't originate there. The offerings, were done away with in Jesus, but not the laws themselves. The keeping of the 7th day Sabbath, the keeping of the Feast days, they are to remain until the end of time.

Besides, the feast days should be something we should want to celebrate. They all point to Jesus. All of them. Jesus has already fulfilled the first 4, and the last three He will come to fulfill as well. The very next one He has to fulfill is the feast of Trumpets. He will come during that time. No one knows exactly the day or the hour, but we know the season. It will happen in the fall, but because of Satan's influence, we don't know the exact day, or hour, only the season. Revelations says that Jesus will come when the last trumpet sounds, and the feast of trumpets, is one of the 3 feast days He hasn't yet fulfilled. The last two deal with separation of good and bad seed, and the reunion of God with His children. Both things, that Jesus will fulfill after He returns. Instead, we follow man-made tradition, and celebrate the evolution of the feast of Saturnalia (Christmas) Although, I'll save you from reading about this, as I'll make another thread about the pagan origins of modern-day holidays we observe today. This thread is long enough haha. God bless, brothers and sisters. May the work and deception of Satan not deceive you from keeping, speaking, and living in truth.

The leaders of the Christian church, many of whom had been Christ's disciples met to discuss which Jewish laws gentile converts should follow( Acts ch15) four were mentioned, three of which are widely believed to have been given to appease Jewish legalists who had become Christians.
Did the church give gentiles converts a licence to sin by not asking them to follow more than four Jewish laws?

Devin P · Sep 8, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
The leaders of the Christian church, many of whom had been Christ's disciples met to discuss which Jewish laws gentile converts should follow( Acts ch15) four were mentioned, three of which are widely believed to have been given to appease Jewish legalists who had become Christians.
Did the church give gentiles converts a licence to sin by not asking them to follow more than four Jewish laws?

Acts Ch 15, starts out with "And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, "Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved".

"Except". Meaning, they placed their faith for salvation, entirely on the law. Not in Jesus. This is what they disputed, placing faith in the law for salvation. The law is the result of salvation, not the root of it. This is the whole point of this chapter, that actually, you can get to heaven without the law, so long as you have faith, but it isn't doing away with the law. Not even for the gentiles. To say that it does, is disregarding the entire bible.

You CAN still get into heaven, just observing the things written about in Acts chapter 15, but you'd be considered the least in the kingdom of heaven for not desiring to keep the law. Note also, that Jesus says "depart from me, ye who work iniquity" - but that word "iniquity" is translated from the greek word "anomia" which quite literally means, lawlessness, or one without law. Either for desiring to disobey the law, or for the ignorance to it, regardless, that word iniquity comes from, isn't as broad as the definition of iniquity, it means quite simply, lawlessness. Ye who work lawlessness.

Can you get into heaven without desiring to keep the law out of love and trust for God? Yes, it's possible if you have enough faith, but even if you did, again, Jesus calls these people, the least in the kingdom of heaven. So, even if you do make the cut, and aren't considered lawless, you will still be considered least, because you didn't do, nor teach the doings of the law.

stuart lawrence · Sep 8, 2017

Devin P said:
Acts Ch 15, starts out with "And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, "Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved".

"Except". Meaning, they placed their faith for salvation, entirely on the law. Not in Jesus. This is what they disputed, placing faith in the law for salvation. The law is the result of salvation, not the root of it. This is the whole point of this chapter, that actually, you can get to heaven without the law, so long as you have faith, but it isn't doing away with the law. Not even for the gentiles. To say that it does, is disregarding the entire bible.

You CAN still get into heaven, just observing the things written about in Acts chapter 15, but you'd be considered the least in the kingdom of heaven for not desiring to keep the law. Note also, that Jesus says "depart from me, ye who work iniquity" - but that word "iniquity" is translated from the greek word "anomia" which quite literally means, lawlessness, or one without law. Either for desiring to disobey the law, or for the ignorance to it, regardless, that word iniquity comes from, isn't as broad as the definition of iniquity, it means quite simply, lawlessness. Ye who work lawlessness.

Can you get into heaven without desiring to keep the law out of love and trust for God? Yes, it's possible if you have enough faith, but even if you did, again, Jesus calls these people, the least in the kingdom of heaven. So, even if you do make the cut, and aren't considered lawless, you will still be considered least, because you didn't do, nor teach the doings of the law.

No, Acts ch15 is about one thing only. Which Jewish laws gentile converts should be asked to observe.
I'm positive the Jerusalem Church would not have come up with an answer which would mean gentiles would be considered least in the kingdom of heaven

Devin P · Sep 8, 2017

The fact is, you can't walk by the spirit, without following the law. The law is spiritual, and sin is of the flesh. Those living in flesh, hate the spirit, and the law therein, but those of the spirit, hate the sin and the lawlessness therein.

The law doesn't change or stop being just because you believe in God. It's still there, and we're still in sin, but faith will allow us to be justified. This faith however, shouldn't cause us to ditch a familiarity with the law, because that would mean that because of grace, we're sinning all the more. Paul deliberately speaks against this. We should desire to do the law, all the more because we're saved, not be against it and desiring sin. The law merely shows us what sin is, and we use it to avoid that sin. How could we listen to what Jesus said, and "go and sin no more" if we don't observe the law, considering the law is the only thing that can show us what sin is? By what standard are we judging if we aren't observing the law? It's certainly not the standard of God, but our own standard, because the standard of God, IS the law.

stuart lawrence · Sep 8, 2017

Well if applicable law for gentiles is observing all if the law if Moses, the Jerusalem Church did indeed give gentile converts a licence to sin. No way round that I'm afraid

Devin P · Sep 8, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
No, Acts ch15 is about one thing only. Which Jewish laws gentile converts should be asked to observe.
I'm positive the Jerusalem Church would not have come up with an answer which would mean gentiles would be considered least in the kingdom of heaven

Matthew 5:19 - Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

stuart lawrence · Sep 8, 2017

Devin P said:
Matthew 5:19 - Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

And Jesus disciples, who heard those words only asked gentile convertsto follow four Jewish laws. I assume you must believe they were in error. And they did write, along with Paul nearly all the books of the NT

Devin P · Sep 8, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
Well if applicable law for gentiles is observing all if the law if Moses, the Jerusalem Church did indeed give gentile converts a licence to sin. No way round that I'm afraid

You are right. But we are to weigh everything against the word of God. Jesus tells us that the ones who do the law, and teach others will be considered great. Those that break it, and teach others to break it, will be called least. They did that, and Paul was against it. Which is why his letters reflect that. Paul's letters are quite confusing, but he states on several occasions that we are to observe the law.

If we aren't to observe the law, how would faith without works be dead? How would we be professing Jesus with our lips, but not our hearts? Because, we say we believe, but our actions, don't reflect our belief. If they did, we would be showing our faith in our actions, as is written in James. We show our faith by our works. We were given the works to show, and to separate us from the nations, and these are the laws. Eating pork for example, pork is hidden in literally 80% of food it seems like. It's in marshmallows, it's in jello, it's in 95% of sausage casings, regardless of the meat you use, chicken, turkey, beef. It's in candy, it's in tooth paste, it's in shampoo, it's in gum, it's everywhere. Why?

stuart lawrence · Sep 8, 2017

Devin P said:
You are right. But we are to weigh everything against the word of God. Jesus tells us that the ones who do the law, and teach others will be considered great. Those that break it, and teach others to break it, will be called least. They did that, and Paul was against it. Which is why his letters reflect that. Paul's letters are quite confusing, but he states on several occasions that we are to observe the law.

If we aren't to observe the law, how would faith without works be dead? How would we be professing Jesus with our lips, but not our hearts? Because, we say we believe, but our actions, don't reflect our belief. If they did, we would be showing our faith in our actions, as is written in James. We show our faith by our works. We were given the works to show, and to separate us from the nations, and these are the laws. Eating pork for example, pork is hidden in literally 80% of food it seems like. It's in marshmallows, it's in jello, it's in 95% of sausage casings, regardless of the meat you use, chicken, turkey, beef. It's in candy, it's in tooth paste, it's in shampoo, it's in gum, it's everywhere. Why?

I'm off out now. I see no point in continuing this anyway. I know the Jerusalem Church did NOT give gentiles a licence to sin. You have no choice but to believe they did

Devin P · Sep 8, 2017

stuart lawrence said:
And Jesus disciples, who heard those words only asked gentile convertsto follow four Jewish laws. I assume you must believe they were in error. And they did write, along with Paul nearly all the books of the NT

I don't believe they were in error. I believe they were speaking truth, but many of us today take what they're saying out of context. Like the vision Peter has, or Jesus supposedly doing away with food laws. I bring up these two, because they contradict one another quite harshly.

Devin P · Sep 8, 2017

Peter was arguably Jesus's closest disciple, and was with Him constantly. And Jesus supposedly did away with the food laws, verbally? Yet, 37 years later, when he was given a vision, still never once ate clean or unclean foods? So, 37 years after Jesus apparently preached a gospel that did away with the law, by the logic of today, he was still observing the law? This makes no sense, especially when you read later on in Acts chapter 10, that this vision (of which Peter himself states) that it had nothing to do with food, but people. Which makes much more sense, when you see that in the first century AD, they had a man-made law, professing gentiles unclean, and God had previously sent 3 gentiles to his door.

Under the understanding of the modern-day church, for 37 years apparently, the closest disciple to Jesus, didn't even understand apparently the most basic of principals of the faith he professed. No. This isn't so. He understood it entirely, which is why he still observed the levitical food laws.

Devin P · Sep 8, 2017

I as well, don't believe they were in error. I believe, we are in error in our understanding today. Grace forgives, but it doesn't give us a license to keep sinning. Yet, sin, is only, the transgression of the law. If we can keep sinning, that means the law is still alive. It is the standard by which we are to live, not our own understanding. The tree of life, or the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Without the law, people revert to "I think" or "I feel" No. The standard, is that of God, and it's clear, because He's written it down for us. What He finds abominations, what He finds detestable, He is our spouse, and He makes it clear for us what we are to do to prepare ourselves for Him. We can only be prepared by faith, but the law shows us how we should walk. I'm not saying the disciples were in error, I'm saying the majority of our theologies are today.

A_Thinker · Sep 8, 2017

Devin P said:
Jesus says in Matthew chapter 5:

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

In verse 18, He says that not until heaven and earth pass, shall the law have to be removed. Heaven and earth are still here, so not only does this mean that the law is still meant to be obeyed. In verse 19, He says that whoever shall refrain from the law, and teach others to do the same will be called the least in the kingdom, but whoever keeps the law, and teaches others to do the same, will be called great. Then in verse 20:

20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

This is saying that, the righteousness of the Pharisees, was by the letter, and not of faith. So, in order to have more righteousness than a Pharisee, one must only believe, and trust in God. But, we are to still keep the laws as the Pharisees said to, as stated by Jesus here: Matthew 23:1-3 - 1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

He is saying that the Pharisees teach the law of Moses, and that His disciples are to obey and to keep that law. To listen to them, because they preach the law of Moses, but only not to do as they do, because they place their faith in justification in themselves, and in man, not in God.

The law was never done away with, because it's displaying the Character of God. God cannot change. What is sin against Him yesterday, is sin against Him today and forever. Satan has infiltrated us, and caused us to view the law as sinful, which it is not. Jesus literally tells us that it isn't to pass until after judgement. We are to keep the law, but out of faith. I don't mean, out of faith the way the world says out of faith, I mean, that by having faith that God will justify you when you fail at it. Because you will. This knowing of your impossibility to keep the law shouldn't deter you from desiring to keep it. Romans 7 is a testament to that. The whole chapter is about him struggling to keep the laws of God, because his flesh and spirit are constantly warring one against the other. As we do today.

The doctrinal teaching of all grace and no law, isn't biblical. Abraham was justified by faith, but still kept the law. Genesis 26:5

Noah knew about clean and unclean animals Genesis 7:2
He even sacrificed a burnt offering on an altar, and only used clean animals to offer up: Genesis 8:20

Abraham also sacrificed a clean animal for a burnt offering to God, Genesis 22:13. It's not the law of Moses, it's the law of God, and it is never changing, because God is never changing. Abraham, although he was justified by faith, still kept the law of God. Genesis 26:5

The law was in fact a shadow, but only because through it, a lot of men thought that they were justified, when in fact, God is the only one who can justify. All of the bible is written about Israel. Israel, are God's children. They are those that have faith in God to justify, and be merciful, while they keep and uphold His laws. That is quite literally, every single great man ever written about in the bible. They struggled to keep the laws, while being strengthened by a sound faith in God. Moses was subject to the law, but saw and talked with God because of faith. David was to keep the law, but was justified by faith. Abraham was to keep it, but was justified by faith, Noah was to keep it, but was justified by faith. The prophets were to keep it, but were justified by faith. Jesus, was to keep it, and did. He was justified by the law, because He is the law. He is the word made flesh.

People try to say that people after Moses were the only ones to have known the law, but this biblically speaking, isn't so. It can be shown, over and over again throughout the pre-exodus scriptures. Even when Lot was visited by the Angels of the Lord. What type of bread did he offer up to Them? Genesis 19:3 - Unleavened bread. How would he have known to offer up to this being, unleavened bread if it weren't for the law? How about how just a chapter previously, where Abraham gave the Angel of the Lord a grain offering Genesis 18:6? These things were written about first with Moses, but they didn't originate there. The offerings, were done away with in Jesus, but not the laws themselves. The keeping of the 7th day Sabbath, the keeping of the Feast days, they are to remain until the end of time.

Besides, the feast days should be something we should want to celebrate. They all point to Jesus. All of them. Jesus has already fulfilled the first 4, and the last three He will come to fulfill as well. The very next one He has to fulfill is the feast of Trumpets. He will come during that time. No one knows exactly the day or the hour, but we know the season. It will happen in the fall, but because of Satan's influence, we don't know the exact day, or hour, only the season. Revelations says that Jesus will come when the last trumpet sounds, and the feast of trumpets, is one of the 3 feast days He hasn't yet fulfilled. The last two deal with separation of good and bad seed, and the reunion of God with His children. Both things, that Jesus will fulfill after He returns. Instead, we follow man-made tradition, and celebrate the evolution of the feast of Saturnalia (Christmas) Although, I'll save you from reading about this, as I'll make another thread about the pagan origins of modern-day holidays we observe today. This thread is long enough haha. God bless, brothers and sisters. May the work and deception of Satan not deceive you from keeping, speaking, and living in truth.

The secret is the understanding of the PURPOSE of the Law.

Paul taught that the purpose of the Law, now and forever, is to POINT sinful souls to their need for God's grace.

And Paul taught that it is by GRACE that we are saved ... and that the Law has NO POWER to SAVE.

As christians, we are to be led by the Spirit which lives within us. As such, we are not under the Law.

"But if you are led by the Spirit, ... you are not under the Law."
Galatians 5:18

Devin P · Sep 8, 2017

A_Thinker said:
The secret is the understanding of the PURPOSE of the Law.

Paul taught that the purpose of the Law, now and forever, is to POINT sinful souls to their need for God's grace.

And Paul taught that it is by GRACE that we are saved ... and that the Law has NO POWER to SAVE.

As christians, we are to be led by the Spirit which lives within us. As such, we are not under the Law.

"But if you are led by the Spirit, ... you are not under the Law."
Galatians 5:18

Exactly. I agree completely. The law can in no way save you, and you are meant to be pointed to the need of a savior with the law, because the law only does one thing:

Points out our sin. Why does it do this? Because, the absence of the law, is to be in sin. The breaking of the law, is also sin. It is by the law that we know what sin is, and when Jesus tells us to go and sin no more, He meant for us to fulfill the law as He did.

I take it you missed my other posts saying this, and that's cool, but I'll explain again. The law doesn't justify you, that's not what I'm saying, and that's not what the bible says. Faith justifies you, but faith manifests itself with obedience. Obedience to the law. Not perfect obedience, because that'd be impossible. But a desire, to obey, though your flesh will not ever grant you complete obedience. David was to fulfill the law, yet he obviously fell short of that, and wrote of God's infinite grace and mercy, and yet also wrote of how much he found enjoyment and love and peace in the law. Psalm 1:1-3

Abraham was justified by faith, but still upheld the laws, Genesis 26:5, and he even gave a few burnt offerings, and grain offerings (things written about and shown to us in the Mosaic law.)

Noah also knew and observed the law, this is shown in Genesis 7:2, and Genesis 8:20

Lot knew about the Mosaic law, and offered unleavened bread to the Angel of the Lord that visited him.

Moses was justified by faith, and still kept the laws. This was God's intention for all of Israel, but because they fearfully sent Moses up to Mount Sinai instead of going themselves (what God originally intended) God was unable to form the relationship with them that He wanted, and instead formed it only with Moses. There was nothing special about Moses, he only humbled himself before our Father, something Israel continually refused to do.

What do these five people have to do with anything? Because, they were all justified by faith, but still observed the law. We aren't justified by the law, and doing the law won't save us, but it is what God prefers for us. Can we still enter into heaven without any observance to the law? It's possible, because Jesus says "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." so I meant yes, it is possible, but even if we were, we'd be considered the least in the kingdom. So, I don't see why you'd want to do away with the law. Being UNDER the law, is different than observing the law however. Being UNDER the law, means that you are under the entire law, which is the law of sin and death. Not that the law is sin, nor death, but that is the curse therein. That, if you observe the whole law, and in your mind are justifying yourself because of it, the penalty for the breaking of the law, is death. But observing the law, while being under grace (as I'm suggesting, as the bible says, and as I'm trying to live) you are no longer penalized in the second death for your sin, especially if your heart desires not to sin, but obedience. We get this too confused today. Being UNDER the law, and obeying the law, are two different things. One is justification by obedience, the other is obedience as a result of our justification, a justification that came about by faith.

A_Thinker · Sep 8, 2017

Devin P said:
Exactly. I agree completely. The law can in no way save you, and you are meant to be pointed to the need of a savior with the law, because the law only does one thing:

Points out our sin. Why does it do this? Because, the absence of the law, is to be in sin. The breaking of the law, is also sin. It is by the law that we know what sin is, and when Jesus tells us to go and sin no more, He meant for us to fulfill the law as He did.

I take it you missed my other posts saying this, and that's cool, but I'll explain again. The law doesn't justify you, that's not what I'm saying, and that's not what the bible says. Faith justifies you, but faith manifests itself with obedience. Obedience to the law. Not perfect obedience, because that'd be impossible. But a desire, to obey, though your flesh will not ever grant you complete obedience. David was to fulfill the law, yet he obviously fell short of that, and wrote of God's infinite grace and mercy, and yet also wrote of how much he found enjoyment and love and peace in the law. Psalm 1:1-3

Abraham was justified by faith, but still upheld the laws, Genesis 26:5, and he even gave a few burnt offerings, and grain offerings (things written about and shown to us in the Mosaic law.)

Noah also knew and observed the law, this is shown in Genesis 7:2, and Genesis 8:20

Lot knew about the Mosaic law, and offered unleavened bread to the Angel of the Lord that visited him.

Moses was justified by faith, and still kept the laws. This was God's intention for all of Israel, but because they fearfully sent Moses up to Mount Sinai instead of going themselves (what God originally intended) God was unable to form the relationship with them that He wanted, and instead formed it only with Moses. There was nothing special about Moses, he only humbled himself before our Father, something Israel continually refused to do.

What do these five people have to do with anything? Because, they were all justified by faith, but still observed the law. We aren't justified by the law, and doing the law won't save us, but it is what God prefers for us. Can we still enter into heaven without any observance to the law? It's possible, because Jesus says "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." so I meant yes, it is possible, but even if we were, we'd be considered the least in the kingdom. So, I don't see why you'd want to do away with the law. Being UNDER the law, is different than observing the law however. Being UNDER the law, means that you are under the entire law, which is the law of sin and death. Not that the law is sin, nor death, but that is the curse therein. That, if you observe the whole law, and in your mind are justifying yourself because of it, the penalty for the breaking of the law, is death. But observing the law, while being under grace (as I'm suggesting, as the bible says, and as I'm trying to live) you are no longer penalized in the second death for your sin, especially if your heart desires not to sin, but obedience. We get this too confused today. Being UNDER the law, and obeying the law, are two different things. One is justification by obedience, the other is obedience as a result of our justification, a justification that came about by faith.

But if you are led of the Spirit, then you are not under the Law. Galatians 5:18

It is not God's will that we follow the Law, ... for the objective of following the Law.

It is God's will that we allow the Law to teach us, that we cannot, of ourselves, live up to the expectations of God for His children.

Let's go back to the beginning ... what happened in the garden of Eden ?

Man disobeyed God's command and thus, fell out of relationship with God.

Everything from that point on in the scriptures ... is about God working to RESTORE relationship with men and women. If God was primarily concerned with His commands being followed to the letter, ... He could have created beings who would do so.

But God is interested in RELATIONSHIP, even flawed relationship.

Think to when God directed Hosea to marry Gomer, a prostitue, and a daughter of whoredom. ... only to have Gomer return to her prostitution, ... afterwhich God instructed Hosea to go and get her again.

The giving of the Law was to demonstrate to us the futility of a life lived without God ... so that we would be driven to renew our relationship with God. After doing so, ... we should strive to fulfill our loving husband's will ... because we love Him, ... not out of some slavish commitment to follow a list of do's and dont's.

If you consider the question practically, ... you will have to admit that no list of rules could represent the full will of God. And, not only that, but it is unlikely that such a list would never vary. Because life varies, ... and the necessities of God's work varies. God never changes, ... but He isn't always doing the same thing.

For instance, ... prior to the sacrifice of Christ, by God's law, Israelites were required to marry only other Israelites. But with the coming of Christ, these is no difference between Jew and Gentile, teaches Paul.

So ... does God issue a new tweaked set of laws for His people ? No, He decides that He will write His law, His desires, day by day, moment by moment, upon their hearts. And how does He do this ... but by the ministry of the Holy Spirit, Who guides us day by day, moment by moment, ... without the need for any external Law. We need only follow Him.

The Law, which is finite (i.e words on paper, etc.) has to be inferior to the Spirit, which is infinite.

The Law has accomplished its purpose in those of us who have realigned with God through Christ. The Law goes on to point non-aligned persons back to God through Christ. That is what it was designed to do ... and that is what it does.

As for christians, we are to follow the Spirit. And, if we are led by the Spirit of God, we are no longer under the Law.

Devin P · Sep 8, 2017

A_Thinker said:
But if you are led of the Spirit, then you are not under the Law. Galatians 5:18

It is not God's will that we follow the Law, ... for the objective of following the Law.

It is God's will that we allow the Law to teach us, that we cannot, of ourselves, live up to the expectations of God for His children.

I've only expressed agreement with this, and I've never spoken against it. I'm not debating that we can't of ourselves live up to God's expectations. Never said we could, or implied we could.

Let's go back to the beginning ... what happened in the garden of Eden ?

God have them the choice. Obey Him and His commands, or lean on our own understanding. We chose our own understanding, and fell into sin, the punishment of which is death.

Think to when God directed Hosea to marry Gomer, a prostitue, and a daughter of whoredom. ... only to have Gomer return to her prostitution, ... afterwhich God instructed Hosea to go and get her again.

This actually is a small example symbolizing God's love and mercy for us. Israel kept whoring themselves out, as we have today, and merciful as He is, He kept taking us back, and even eventually ended up buying us back on the cross.

The giving of the Law was to demonstrate to us the futility of a life lived without God ... so that we would be driven to renew our relationship with God. After doing so, ... we should strive to fulfill our loving husband's will ... because we love Him, ... not out of some slavish commitment to follow a list of do's and dont's.

Slavish? I'm not implying enslaving yourself to the law. To get your justification from the law is to be a slave to the law. I'm not stating that. I'm saying that, we, who have sinned, and deserve to be punished for said sins, after being redeemed from those sins, should we desire to sin all the more? No, but we have to understand that sin is the breaking of the law. Wil we ever be free of sin? No, but this doesn't mean we don't try. To be obedient to God, is to try to obey the law. Note: I did not say, we have to obey for salvation. No, you can still be saved without obeying the law, but I don't know why you wish for that. You'll be the least in the kingdom when you do.

If you consider the question practically, ... you will have to admit that no list of rules could represent the full will of God. And, not only that, but it is unlikely that such a list would never vary. Because life varies, ... and the necessities of God's work varies. God never changes, ... but He isn't always doing the same thing.

This makes no sense. You said God never changed, but the rules God requires change. How can God never change if something He deems acceptable or unacceptable can change? The fact that Jesus sacrificed Himself proves God never changed. He had to give up His son because He in fact never changes. In order to remain consistent He had to be sacrificed.

For instance, ... prior to the sacrifice of Christ, by God's law, Israelites were required to marry only other Israelites. But with the coming of Christ, these is no difference between Jew and Gentile, teaches Paul.

This is because up until Jesus came, the law was not for gentiles, only for Israelites. Salvation was intended for only Israelites as well, but yet Solomon still married unbelievers, having to follow the law, yet being justified by faith - a system you say doesn't exist. Even though Moses, Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, Noah, all of the prophets, and David all wrote about the system you say doesn't exist.

So ... does God issue a new tweaked set of laws for His people ? No, He decides that He will write His law, His desires, day by day, moment by moment, upon their hearts. And how does He do this ... but by the ministry of the Holy Spirit, Who guides us day by day, moment by moment, ... without the need for any external Law. We need only follow Him.

He has written it on my heart. I'm a gentile, yet, because of my salvation, I desire to obey the law. Not for salvation, but because of it. I'm under grace, not the law. But that faith doesn't do away with His law. My faith is perfected in the law, the law is not not the root of my salvation however. My faith is shown to the world because, as my Father gave me commandment, even so I do. And by these actions, which come from my heart, I'm professing Him not only with my lips, but also my heart is in fact close to Him. I'm also professing Him in my actions. Therefore I'm showing my faith by my works. Not only that, but I'm ensured deliverance from the mark of the beast, because there are two marks. On depicted in revelations - the mark of the beast. And the other depicted in exodus, and it's the mark of God. The mark of the beast is attributed to the ways of man and the devil, the mark of God is attributed to the ways of God.

The Law has accomplished its purpose in those of us which have realigned with God through Christ. The Law goes on to point non-aligned persons back to God through Christ. That is what it was designed to do ... and that is what it does.

Psalm 119:94, as David writes, I am thine, save me; for I have sought thy precepts.

He is God's, and how did he verify that? Because he SOUGHT the Father's precepts. Not that he perfectly did them, not that he was justified by doing them, but that he sought to do them. He desired them, the precepts of his Father. He asked the Father to save him, which is his faith, and then his faith was proven in his walk, in that, he sought his Fathers precepts.

Psalm 1:1-2
Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in His law doth he meditate day and night.

As for christians, we are to follow the Spirit. And, if we are led by the Spirit of God, we are no longer under the Law.

We are to follow the spirit, and we aren't under the law. But again, obeying the law (which is spirit in and of itself) is different than being under the law.

Devin P · Sep 8, 2017

Not all of those "wrote" about the system you say doesn't exist, but their lives prove it's existence in the writings. Poor choice of wording on my part, my apologies!

stuart lawrence · Sep 8, 2017

Devin P said:
Peter was arguably Jesus's closest disciple, and was with Him constantly. And Jesus supposedly did away with the food laws, verbally? Yet, 37 years later, when he was given a vision, still never once ate clean or unclean foods? So, 37 years after Jesus apparently preached a gospel that did away with the law, by the logic of today, he was still observing the law? This makes no sense, especially when you read later on in Acts chapter 10, that this vision (of which Peter himself states) that it had nothing to do with food, but people. Which makes much more sense, when you see that in the first century AD, they had a man-made law, professing gentiles unclean, and God had previously sent 3 gentiles to his door.

Under the understanding of the modern-day church, for 37 years apparently, the closest disciple to Jesus, didn't even understand apparently the most basic of principals of the faith he professed. No. This isn't so. He understood it entirely, which is why he still observed the levitical food laws.

As one who is in the Lord Jesus I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean then for him it is unclean
Rom14:14

Do not destroy the work if God for the sake of food. ALL food is clean but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes another to stumble
Verse20

(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

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