John 1:1-5 is NOT a 'trinitarin' text
- Thread starter Dartman
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Hmmmm.... perhaps a trade? I will answer your question, if you admit there simply isn't ANY text that; A) states the trinity. or B) records an apostle PREACHING the trinity.
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The Comma Johanneum, also called the Johannine Comma or the Heavenly Witnesses, is a comma (a short clause) found in Latin manuscripts of the First Epistle of John[1] at 5:7–8. The comma first appeared in the Vulgate manuscripts of the 9th century.[2] The first Greek manuscript that contains the comma dates from the 15th century.[3] The comma is absent from the Ethiopiac, Aramaic, Syriac, Slavic, Armenian, Georgian, and Arabic translations of the Greek New Testament.[3] The scholarly consensus is that that passage is a Latin corruption that entered the Greek manuscript tradition in some subsequent copies.[1] As the comma does not appear in the manuscript tradition of other languages, the debate is mainly limited to the English-speaking world due to the King James Only movement.
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Well getting back to John 1:1-5, I presume your sources say that in John 1:1 that instead of its conclusion saying that, "the Word was God" your watchtower Bible would conclude "the word was a god". So from this we must conclude that the "Word" was just a "word"'and "God" is just a "god". I have no idea how you get around John 1:14 with such theory.
Interestingly in the footnotes of the New King James Bible (NKJV) for John 1:18 which says the "only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father.." says some ancient manuscripts say the "only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father.." Note that this further confirms that the Word and Son are "God"and not a "god".
Re 1 John 5:7-8 , I am sure there is scholarship that supports its authenticity surely the whole Gospel of John supports what the apostle summarizes in his 1st epistle.
Interestingly in the footnotes of the New King James Bible (NKJV) for John 1:18 which says the "only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father.." says some ancient manuscripts say the "only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father.." Note that this further confirms that the Word and Son are "God"and not a "god".
Re 1 John 5:7-8 , I am sure there is scholarship that supports its authenticity surely the whole Gospel of John supports what the apostle summarizes in his 1st epistle.
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- Oct 28, 2006
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Ok. I admit that there is no text in the New Testament that ... specifically uses the term, Trinity, as a collective designation for the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And no apostle specifically uses the term, Trinity, either.
Are we good now?
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The trinity just makes sense to me, I use to be a Jehovah's Witness and did not believe in it then and heard and read much against it, it was discovery of the H.S. and in Acts, and going back to pure scripture rather than their books, that, the trinity, just made/makes sense to me, it solves a problem when trying to work the H.S. into things, into your mental concepts, that the trinity just makes sense to me, and I think it is scripturally sound...
I just don't know know if they are equal or exactly alike or not, or have the same knowledge (at the start) or not...
But Scriptures talking about Jesus as being the one through whom God or the Father, made all things, and the H.S. clearly being present in the very beginning with God also, along with the Son, and The Father God...
John's gospel, and many of the things the disciples and apostles taught in other books, make clear distinctions between the Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, yet that all and each are God, like the Father is...
God Bless!
I just don't know know if they are equal or exactly alike or not, or have the same knowledge (at the start) or not...
But Scriptures talking about Jesus as being the one through whom God or the Father, made all things, and the H.S. clearly being present in the very beginning with God also, along with the Son, and The Father God...
John's gospel, and many of the things the disciples and apostles taught in other books, make clear distinctions between the Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, yet that all and each are God, like the Father is...
God Bless!
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- May 23, 2017
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No. "The word was God" ... or, more directly from the Greek, "and God, was the word".
We need to beware of "straw man" arguments. You've made a couple of fundamental erroneous assessments.Lukaris said:
The conclusion that logos/word means EXACTLY what it ALWAYS means, is natural, and supported in the entire Book of John, as well as the rest of the Greek texts.
It is the trinitarian argument that presumes the right to define logos in an UNNATURAL way.
There is no "get around", it's simple.Lukaris said:
Jesus is the "flesh and blood" fulfillment of his God's words.
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Are you telling me you actually think your "admission" meets the criteria I requested? Merely admitting the WORD "trinity" isn't in the Scriptures doesn't work.Ok. I admit that there is no text in the New Testament that ... specifically uses the term, Trinity, as a collective designation for the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And no apostle specifically uses the term, Trinity, either.Dartman said:
Are we good now?
" .. there simply isn't ANY text that; A) states the trinity. or B) records an apostle PREACHING the trinity."
Just so there is NO question..... "states the trinity" would include ANY tenet UNIQUE to trinitarian theories.
"PREACHING the trinity" would include ANY tenet UNIQUE to trinitarian theories.
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Ok. That's the way you see it, and I understand that is your present viewpoint.
But, let's assume that Jesus isn't God. What about the Holy Spirit? What is 'it' in your view?
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The Scriptures are impeccably clear, that Jehovah/YHVH God, Christ's God, is the Creator in Genesis. The Creator of heaven and earth, and all creatures in them.
The Scriptures are LESS clear, but still clear enough, that Jesus is the creator of the COSMOS in which he was resurrected, and in which the apostles taught, and established the Church, and in which we currently live.
Paul clarifies EXACTLY what this "COSMOS" means, when he stated "thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers".
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It is God's mind, and the power produced by God's mind.
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The holy spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
It is in contrast to "the spirit of the world".
1 Cor 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
The product of God's spirit is KNOWLEDGE ... a Godly mind, with God's values, justice, wisdom, thinking.
God IS spirit, and the believers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.
God is a mentality, and it is crucial that the believer's mind is transformed to match God's thinking/mind/spirit.
Eph 4:17-24 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; 19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. 20 But you did not learn Christ in this way, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, 22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, 23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
Eph 5:1-2 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children;
Rom 12:1-2 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
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Steve Petersen
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Compare John 1 with Proverbs 8:22-23. Very similar.
22 Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, Before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, Before the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills was I brought forth; 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, Nor the beginning of the dust of the world.
27 When he established the heavens, I was there: When he set a circle upon the face of the deep, 28 When he made firm the skies above, When the fountains of the deep became strong, 29 When he gave to the sea its bound, That the waters should not transgress his commandment, When he marked out the foundations of the earth; 30 Then I was by him, [as] a master workman; And I was daily [his] delight, Rejoicing always before him, 31 Rejoicing in his habitable earth; And my delight was with the sons of men.
32 Now therefore, [my] sons, hearken unto me; For blessed are they that keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction, and be wise, And refuse it not.
34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, Watching daily at my gates, Waiting at the posts of my doors.
35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, And shall obtain favor of Jehovah.
36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: All they that hate me love death.
22 Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, Before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, Before the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills was I brought forth; 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, Nor the beginning of the dust of the world.
27 When he established the heavens, I was there: When he set a circle upon the face of the deep, 28 When he made firm the skies above, When the fountains of the deep became strong, 29 When he gave to the sea its bound, That the waters should not transgress his commandment, When he marked out the foundations of the earth; 30 Then I was by him, [as] a master workman; And I was daily [his] delight, Rejoicing always before him, 31 Rejoicing in his habitable earth; And my delight was with the sons of men.
32 Now therefore, [my] sons, hearken unto me; For blessed are they that keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction, and be wise, And refuse it not.
34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, Watching daily at my gates, Waiting at the posts of my doors.
35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, And shall obtain favor of Jehovah.
36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: All they that hate me love death.
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Please read the CONTEXT of Proverbs 8!
This is a classic example of distorting a text, by ignoring it's context.
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You think Robert is an apostle??? Nope, me neither.
I will stick with reading, and learning from the Scriptures.
You know, there is a REASON there were Papal Bulls that demanded the Bible NOT be read by the "laity".
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Steve Petersen
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It is a characteristic of God anthropomorphized. How different is this than John 1 aside from how the Logos was incarnated?
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Wisdom is certainly a characteristic of God, and He is the epitome of wisdom, but the text isn't limited to God's wisdom, it is anthropomorphizing ALL wisdom. The attempt to take PART of that text, OUT of context, and force it to be specifically about Jesus, is a classic example of eisegesis.
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