Is Speaking In Tongues Biblical Today?

Biblicist · Sep 8, 2017

Major1 said:
"ALL" the commentators reflected your understanding of the "Perfect" to come?

"ALL"..

I know for a fact that that is not the case at all.

Now tell me, is a part of the cessationist malaise or did you purposely decided to ignore the fact that I went to some length to point out that the commentaries I referred to were written prior to the Charismatic Renewal and even back to the 1800's.

Then you decide to throw in a commentary from 1996 which has no connection to these older commentaries - what were you thinking?

I have right here in my hand Dr. J. Vernon Magee's "Through the Bible" and that is NOT what he says. He believes that the "Perfect" is the written Word of God.

Who?

I also have Dr. Oliver B. Greens commentaries and he also does not agree with your theology.

As he is an Independent Baptist I'm not all that sure that he can be quoted as they tend to be a bit on the fringe.

Dr. Constable says that the τελειον view is that the perfect refers to the completion of the New Testament canon and the partial to the incomplete canon and the Corinthians" partial knowledge.

Who . . . when . . . what book title are you referring to?

Major1 · Sep 8, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
You are adding "in the congregation" as if that is correct. It isn't. The only way the congregation understands is through the gift of interpretation of tongues.

Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

This should be clear to you, or do I need to make the letters larger again. How about in Technicolor?

You said..........
"This should be clear to you, or do I need to make the letters larger again. How about in Technicolor?"

Do you really think that is the way to speak with someone who only disagrees with you?

Do you actually think that kind of sarcasm strengthens your position and ability to help others understand what you believe?

Major1 · Sep 8, 2017

Biblicist said:
Now tell me, is a part of the cessationist malaise or did you purposely decided to ignore the fact that I went to some length to point out that the commentaries I referred to were written prior to the Charismatic Renewal and even back to the 1800's.

Then you decide to throw in a commentary from 1996 which has no connection to these older commentaries - what were you thinking?

Who?

As he is an Independent Baptist I'm not all that sure that he can be quoted as they tend to be a bit on the fringe.

Who . . . when . . . what book title are you referring to?

You stated that EVERY commentator rejected Cessatonalism. Not one or two or three but ALL

And I think that we have identified the problem here.

I mean to say that you do not know who Dr. J. Vernon Magee is??????
He wrote "Through the Bible" series and I do not think anyone knows how many books he actually produced. He is still on the radio all over this country today and YOU do not know who he is but you claim to have more commentaries than anyone else and know more than the rest of us.

Now because YOU do not know him and his work you reject him. Isn't that exactly what you just claimed that I did??????????

Dr. Magee died in 1988. Thru the Bible was heard in 35 languages. Today, people worldwide receive the teaching of God's whole Word in over 100 languages, in more than 160 countries. ALL of his work matched your criteria as a late commentator.

Then you reject Dr. Oliver B. Green because he is a "Fringe" Independent Baptist preacher and evangelist and commentator.

How is it that your denomination is superior to that of his choosing? Do you have any idea of how many lost people he led to Christ in his ministry??????

I suspect that the reason you do not know these fine men is only because they do not agree with your "Fringe" ideas and were bold enough to say so.

Major1 · Sep 8, 2017

Oscarr said:
It is not fact at all. It is the man's opinion based on the faulty hermeneutics of trying to establish a doctrine on part of an obscure verse, when there are many more references in the New Testament that support the continuance of the spiritual gifts right through the Church Age. I have already posted my reasons why the gifts declined. It was because the Church went right away from what it was in the Book of Acts, and many churches are totally different today. That is why we don't see the gifts operating. The Holy Spirit is not having a bar of our formalised churches whose programmes shut Him out.

Please post the Bible verse that shows us the plan put in place of continuing the office of an Apostle.

Biblicist · Sep 8, 2017

swordsman1 said:
Then you haven't looked very hard.

David Lipscomb - First Corinthians (1935)
10 but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. - These gifts were to continue in the church to guide and instruct it until the completed will of God was made known. They were to serve a temporary purpose; then when their office was fulfilled, they were to pass away and give place to it. That perfection was completed, so far as God's work of the revealing work of the Spirit is concerned, when the full will of God should be revealed, or made known, and his provisions for saving men should be set in operation, as is set forth in the following: "And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ: till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men in craftiness, after the wiles of error; but speaking truth in love, may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, even Christ." (Eph. 4: 11-15.) In this passage Paul explains the whole matter; showing that these miraculous gifts were to serve till the full knowledge was received to make them one in faith and to bring them to the fullness of men and women in Christ. That knowledge is given in the New Testament.

W.E. Vine - Commentary on First Corinthians (1951)
“With the completion of Apostolic testimony and the completion of the Scriptures of truth (‘the faith once for all delivered to the saints,’ Jude 3, R.V.), ‘that which is perfect’ had come, and the temporary gifts were done away. For the Scriptures provided by the Spirit of God were ‘perfect.’ Nothing was to be added to them, nothing taken from them.”

John F. Walvoord - The Holy Spirit (1954)
Temporary character of the prophetic gift. While it may be freely admitted that men today possess the gift of teaching, the gift of exhortation, and the gift of evangelism, it is a safe conclusion that none possess the gift of prophecy. With the completed New Testament, it is evident that there is no further need for additional revelation. It is the purpose of God to reveal Himself through the Word, rather than beyond the Word. There is no more possibility of anyone possessing the prophetic gift in the present dispensation than there is of anyone writing further inspired books to be added to the canon. It is in this light that we may interpret 1 Corinthians 13:8, where in contrast to the abiding character of love, prophecy and special revelation (knowledge) are said to "fail" and "vanish away." The solemn warning of Revelation (Rev. 22:18-19), the last to be written of the New Testament, is that God's judgment will rest upon those who add to the book, a reference specifically to the Book of Revelation, but embodying the principle which underlies the whole canon.

Herman A Hoyt, Speaking in Tongues (1963) BMH Journal
Fourth ,the cessation of this gift very probably took place when the canon of Scripture was finished, just as did the gift of prophecy. Paul declared both of these gifts would cease to be exercised (I Cor. 13:8). The gift of prophecy was necessary in the early church, for this new society of believers had needs that were not met in Old Testament revelation.

When the New Testament writing prophets had completed their work, and the New Testament was finished there was no longer need for prophets. And from the days of the Apostle John after completing the Book of the Revelation, there has never been any new revelation. By the same token, tongues, another type of speaking, likewise finished its purpose, and was therefore no longer needed (Mark 16:17; I Cor. 14:21- 22).

T. R. Applebury, Studies in First Corinthians (1966)
But what is the perfect thing? Commentators suggest that it is Christ or the perfection that will be known when He comes. But there is no reference to the coming of Christ in this context. The word translated “perfect” means “mature” when it refers to persons as in 2:6. Paul says, “We speak wisdom, however, among them that are fullgrown.” When it refers to things, as in this case, it means the end or purpose achieved by the thing, complete. That which was in part must balance with that which is complete. The things that were in part, the spiritual gifts, were used of the Lord to bring the revelation of His will to man. Without the work of the inspired apostles we never would have known the “wisdom of God.” The spiritual gifts given by the Spirit through the laying on of apostolic hands made it possible for others to reveal the same wisdom of God. But when this revelation was committed to writing as it was in the first century, there remained no further purpose to be fulfilled by these gifts. Therefore, when the completed revelation - the Bible - came, the things that were in part were abolished.

By walking in the most excellent way, the Corinthian church should have been able to use the gifts for the benefit of the whoIe church while awaiting the day when the completed revelation would be available for all to use.

When I was a child.-The apostle clearly indicates that the spiritual gifts belonged to the childhood period of the church; their possession and use were not the mark of spiritual maturity.

now that I am become a man.-As the mature man puts away childish things, the church could look to the time when it was to have the completed revelation of the Word and put away the transitory spiritual gifts.

For now we see in a mirror darkly.-The subject is still spiritual gifts. It is not a reference to, time as opposed to eternity. By “now” Paul points to the situation which existed at Corinth. They had the gift of tongues, but it was like seeing an imperfect reflection in a mirror in contrast to the perfect view possible through completed revelation in the Bible.

but then face to face.-This is not a reference to the coming of Christ when we shall see Him as He is. By “then” Paul is indicating the time when the completed revelation would be available for all.

now I know in part.-This was true of the time when the gifts were being used as opposed to the full knowledge that would be possible through the complete revelation in the Bible. It is not a reference to the partial knowledge of this life as opposed to knowledge in heaven. Context does not permit the application to heaven.

as I am fully known.-Just as God knew the needs of all men so He has given complete instruction in His Word for life and godliness (II Pet. 1 :2-4).

Robert Gromacki - The Modern Tongues Movement (1967)
“Logically, to telion must refer to completeness or perfection in the same realm as that referred to by to ek merous. Since to ek merous refers to the transmission of divine truth by revelation, the other term to telion must refer to God’s complete revelation of truth, the entire New Testament (taken of course with its foundational book, the Old Testament).”
...
If the gift of tongues involved the revelation of truth from God to man or about man, then its purpose is no longer needed because God has completed His revelation (Rev. 22:18–19). The need for today is to understand what He has already revealed, not to have new revelation. The silence of church history will confirm the fact that the gift of tongues was not intended to become a permanent part of church life. Otherwise, how could the church of Jesus Christ have functioned in those centuries of silence?
…
Paul’s two illustrations (13:11–12) serve as a third argument. Progressive development from infancy to maturity in Paul’s personal life would best suit the development of the body of Christ (cf. 1 Cor 12). There may be a subtle inference here to the gifts of tongues (“spake”), knowledge (“understood”), and prophecy (“thought”) which would be “put away” or rendered inoperative by maturity (same word is used: katargethesetai, 13:8; cf. katergeka, 13:11). The second illustration is a little more difficult to understand. Weaver argued that it does not refer to the second coming of Christ: “If the mirror [glass] is metaphorical for something, then the ‘face to face’ experience is also metaphorical. If the mirror represents imperfect knowledge, then the face to face encounter is metaphorical for the complete knowledge.” This is consistent with the context of partiality and completeness. By looking into the partially revealed Word, man got a partial picture of himself; however, when the Word was completed, then man could see himself exactly as God saw him. Why? Because God had completely revealed the purpose of man and the church in the Word.

Thanks for those books.

The problem with most cessationist material is that I am not encountering them within the Universities and major Christian colleges that I access, I refuse to quote books if they can only be found on Google.

Even though I have obtained a lot of resources from one of the colleges that is a part of Melbourne University, which is the premier university here in Australia, when I get an opportunity to go to another library within Melbourne University which is at Ormond College, which has the largest Christian selection within Melbourne, then I might then come across some hardened cessationist material, though cessationism and advanced theology are not exactly well suited.

I did come across one cessationist commentary (1968) but as the author's credentials were suspect I might not be able to refer to it.

You will notice however that these are all shallow 1-3 sentence commentaries from books covering the whole of 1st Corinthians and sometimes 2nd, with most of them relying solely on the traditional rendering of telieos as "the perfect" for their reasoning. They are not doing in depth word studies of teleios nor extensive exegesis of this passage which it's undoubted obscurity demands such as. Those who have carried out in-depth studies, such as I have posted previously, conclude that teleios ('completeness' as it should properly be rendered) is not the 2nd coming.

As I had to limit the graphic that I used for the major commentators I was forced to keep their commentary to a minimum, but of course the most important element of the graphic was with the names of the major commentators that I referred to, where most of the names were probably unknown to you.

But with the more comprehensive PDF I will release within a month or so it will be far more indepth with commentary from around 100 commentaries on First Corinthians.

As I have a copy of Godet, I noticed that you carefully cherry picked Godets words, conveniently omitting what he said immediately before and after your quote:

Of course I "cherry picked" as the material was about to teleion and who would ever expect a French theologian from the 1800's to have any first hand knowledge of the Manifestations of the Spirit.

I found it sad that no one picked up on Godet's following comment:

"It is vain to attempt to fix an interval between the abolition announced in ver. 8 and the τὸ τελειον έλθεΐν, the advent of perfection, of ver. 10. But if, according to this text, the total abolition of gifts cannot take place before the end of the present economy, there may come about a modification in their phenomenal manifestation".

Why do you keep perpetuating this lie? The canon/maturity view has never been abandoned. There have been numerous expositions espousing this view since the 70's right up to the present time. All of them in-depth studies. I have already cited 15 of them: Unger, Chantry, Judisch, Pettigrew, Thomas, McRay, Dillow, Cottrell, Houghton, Farnell, Compton, McDougall, Edgar, Gentry, and Reymond; nearly all respected seminary professors. And no doubt there are many others I haven't yet found.

The problem is not that I am lying but with how you are intentionally trying to insert a huge amount of misdirection where you are obviously trying to confuse those cessationists on this forum who are easily misled by humanist diatribe.

Can I help it if you are inexperienced with serious discussion where you try and offset the commentary by respected scholars with those who are mainly bit players and who belong to the fringe of Christian thinking - that is not my problem but yours.

Major1 · Sep 8, 2017

Biblicist said:
Thanks for those books.

The problem with most cessationist material is that I am not encountering them within the Universities and major Christian colleges that I access, I refuse to quote books if they can only be found on Google.

Even though I have obtained a lot of resources from one of the colleges that is a part of Melbourne University, which is the premier university here in Australia, when I get an opportunity to go to another library within Melbourne University which is at Ormond College, which has the largest Christian selection within Melbourne, then I might then come across some hardened cessationist material, though cessationism and advanced theology are not exactly well suited.

I did come across one cessationist commentary (1968) but as the author's credentials were suspect I might not be able to refer to it.

As I had to limit the graphic that I used for the major commentators I was forced to keep their commentary to a minimum, but of course the most important element of the graphic was with the names of the major commentators that I referred to, where most of the names were probably unknown to you.

But with the more comprehensive PDF I will release within a month or so it will be far more indepth with commentary from around 100 commentaries on First Corinthians.

Of course I "cherry picked" as the material was about to teleion and who would ever expect a French theologian from the 1800's to have any first hand knowledge of the Manifestations of the Spirit.

I found it sad that no one picked up on Godet's following comment:

"It is vain to attempt to fix an interval between the abolition announced in ver. 8 and the τὸ τελειον έλθεΐν, the advent of perfection, of ver. 10. But if, according to this text, the total abolition of gifts cannot take place before the end of the present economy, there may come about a modification in their phenomenal manifestation".

The problem is not that I am lying but with how you are intentionally trying to insert a huge amount of misdirection where you are obviously trying to confuse those cessationists on this forum who are easily misled by humanist diatribe.

Can I help it if you are inexperienced with serious discussion where you try and offset the commentary by respected scholars with those who are mainly bit players and who belong to the fringe of Christian thinking - that is not my problem but yours.

Just doing a very quick Goggle search I found..................

John MacArthur explains:

"Miracles in the Bible [primarily] occurred in three major periods of time. The time of Moses and Joshua, the time of Elijah and Elisha, and the time of Christ and the apostles. . . . And it is during those three brief periods of time and those alone that miracles proliferated; that miracles were the norm; that miracles were in abundance. Now God can interject Himself into the human stream supernaturally anytime He wants. We’re not limiting Him. We’re simply saying that He has chosen to limit Himself to a great degree to those three periods of time."

In his helpful book, To Be Continued?, Samuel Waldron aptly expresses the cessationist position this way (on p. 102):

"I am not denying by all this that there are miracles in the world today in the broader sense of supernatural occurrences and extraordinary providences. I am only saying that there are no miracles in the stricter sense [of] miracle-workers performing miraculous signs to attest the redemptive revelation they bring from God. Though God has never locked Himself out of His world and is still at liberty to do as He pleases, when He pleases, how He pleases, and where He pleases, He has made it clear that the progress of redemptive revelation attested by miraculous signs done by miracle-workers has been brought to conclusion in the revelation embodied in our New Testaments."

B.B. Warfield contends............

" that the completed canon of Scripture is the perfect. Scripture is described as “perfect” in James 1:25 , a text in which the same word for “mirror” (as in v. 12) is found (in James 1:23 ). Thus partial revelation is done away when the full revelation of Scripture comes."

Anthony Thiselton notes in his commentary on this passage:

“The one important point to make here is that few or none of the serious ‘cessationist’ arguments depends on a specific exegesis of 1 Cor 13:8–11 . . . . These verses should not be used as a polemic for either side in this debate” (NIGTC, pp. 1063–64).

John Chrysostom (c. 344–407):

This whole place [speaking about 1 Corinthians 12] is very obscure: but the obscurity is produced by our ignorance of the facts referred to and by their cessation, being such as then used to occur but now no longer take place.

(Source: John Chrysostom, Homilies on 1 Corinthians, 36.7. Chrysostom is commenting on 1 Cor 12:1–2

and introducing the entire chapter. Cited from 1–2 Corinthians, in the Ancient Christian Commentary Series, 146)

Augustine (354–430):

"In the earliest times, the Holy Spirit fell upon them that believe and they spoke with tongues, which they had not learned, as the Spirit gave them utterance. These were signs adapted to the time. For there was this betokening of the Holy Spirit in all tongues [languages] to show that the gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a sign, and it passed away".

Theodoret of Cyrus (c. 393–c. 466):

In former times those who accepted the divine preaching and who were baptized for their salvation were given visible signs of the grace of the Holy Spirit at work in them. Some spoke in tongues which they did not know and which nobody had taught them, while others performed miracles or prophesied. The Corinthians also did these things, but they did not use the gifts as they should have done. They were more interested in showing off than in using them for the edification of the church. . . . Even in our time grace is given to those who are deemed worthy of holy baptism, but it may not take the same form as it did in those days.

(Source: Theodoret of Cyrus, Commentary on the First Epistle to the Corinthians, 240, 43; in reference to 1 Cor 12:1

, 7

. Cited from 1–2 Corinthians, ACCS, 117).

Martin Luther (1483–1546)

In the early Church the Holy Spirit was sent forth in visible form. He descended upon Christ in the form of a dove (Matt. 3:16

), and in the likeness of fire upon the apostles and other believers. (Acts 2:3

.) This visible outpouring of the Holy Spirit was necessary to the establishment of the early Church, as were also the miracles that accompanied the gift of the Holy Ghost. Paul explained the purpose of these miraculous gifts of the Spirit in I Corinthians 14:22

, “Tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not.” Once the Church had been established and properly advertised by these miracles, the visible appearance of the Holy Ghost ceased.

(Source: Martin Luther, Commentary on Galatians 4, Trans. by Theodore Graebner [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1949], pp. 150-172. This is from Luther’s comment on Gal. 4:6

.)

John Owen (1616–1683):

Gifts which in their own nature exceed the whole power of all our faculties, that dispensation of the Spirit is long since ceased and where it is now pretended unto by any, it may justly be suspected as an enthusiastic delusion.

(Source: John Owen, Works, IV:518.)

Thomas Watson (1620–1686):

Sure, there is as much need of ordination now as in Christ’s time and in the time of the apostles, there being then extraordinary gifts in the church which are now ceased.

Biblicist · Sep 8, 2017

Major1 said:
You stated that EVERY commentator rejected Cessatonalism. Not one or two or three but ALL

And I think that we have identified the problem here.

For goodness sake, without being rude, is your inability to understand what I post something to do with a difficulty with comprehension? Where I have I said that these commentators reject cessationism; we are discussing to teleion where many of the older commentators held to the view that the Manifestations of the Spirit are no longer in operation today, though they are not always sure why.

Not all cessationists (at least the prudent ones) want to use the understanding of to teleion as supposedly referring to the Canon of Scripture as it belongs to the realm of tractarianism and poor hermeneutics.

I mean to say that you do not know who Dr. J. Vernon Magee is??????
He wrote "Through the Bible" series and I do not think anyone knows how many books he actually produced. He is still on the radio all over this country today and YOU do not know who he is but you claim to have more commentaries than anyone else and know more than the rest of us.

Now because YOU do not know him and his work you reject him. Isn't that exactly what you just claimed that I did??????????

Oh yes, he's someone who used to speak on radio in the US, not here in Australia.

Dr. Magee died in 1988. Thru the Bible was heard in 35 languages. Today, people worldwide receive the teaching of God's whole Word in over 100 languages, in more than 160 countries. ALL of his work matched your criteria as a late commentator.

I could be wrong, but has any competent source on First Corinthians ever quoted him? As I said, I could be wrong but his name does not come to mind but I will check my sources and who knows I might even have to say I was wrong about Magee - after all, I can be wrong on the odd occasion.

Then you reject Dr. Oliver B. Green because he is a "Fringe" Independent Baptist preacher and evangelist and commentator.

You betcha! Quoting an Independent Baptist is generally not a good idea.

How is it that your denomination is superior to that of his choosing? Do you have any idea of how many lost people he led to Christ in his ministry??????

I suspect that the reason you do not know these fine men is only because they do not agree with your "Fringe" ideas and were bold enough to say so.

Now that plain silly talk, as the views of the overwhelming majority of scholars is that to telion does not refer to the Canon of Scripture then you are talking to the wrong person, try and keep to both the facts and reality.

Biblicist · Sep 8, 2017

Major1 said:
Just doing a very quick Goggle search I found..................

John MacArthur explains:

"Miracles in the Bible [primarily] occurred in three major periods of time. The time of Moses and Joshua, the time of Elijah and Elisha, and the time of Christ and the apostles. . . . And it is during those three brief periods of time and those alone that miracles proliferated; that miracles were the norm; that miracles were in abundance. Now God can interject Himself into the human stream supernaturally anytime He wants. We’re not limiting Him. We’re simply saying that He has chosen to limit Himself to a great degree to those three periods of time."

In his helpful book, To Be Continued?, Samuel Waldron aptly expresses the cessationist position this way (on p. 102):

"I am not denying by all this that there are miracles in the world today in the broader sense of supernatural occurrences and extraordinary providences. I am only saying that there are no miracles in the stricter sense [of] miracle-workers performing miraculous signs to attest the redemptive revelation they bring from God. Though God has never locked Himself out of His world and is still at liberty to do as He pleases, when He pleases, how He pleases, and where He pleases, He has made it clear that the progress of redemptive revelation attested by miraculous signs done by miracle-workers has been brought to conclusion in the revelation embodied in our New Testaments."

B.B. Warfield contends............

" that the completed canon of Scripture is the perfect. Scripture is described as “perfect” in James 1:25 , a text in which the same word for “mirror” (as in v. 12) is found (in James 1:23 ). Thus partial revelation is done away when the full revelation of Scripture comes."

Anthony Thiselton notes in his commentary on this passage:

“The one important point to make here is that few or none of the serious ‘cessationist’ arguments depends on a specific exegesis of 1 Cor 13:8–11 . . . . These verses should not be used as a polemic for either side in this debate” (NIGTC, pp. 1063–64).

John Chrysostom (c. 344–407):

This whole place [speaking about 1 Corinthians 12] is very obscure: but the obscurity is produced by our ignorance of the facts referred to and by their cessation, being such as then used to occur but now no longer take place.

(Source: John Chrysostom, Homilies on 1 Corinthians, 36.7. Chrysostom is commenting on 1 Cor 12:1–2 and introducing the entire chapter. Cited from 1–2 Corinthians, in the Ancient Christian Commentary Series, 146)

Augustine (354–430):

"In the earliest times, the Holy Spirit fell upon them that believe and they spoke with tongues, which they had not learned, as the Spirit gave them utterance. These were signs adapted to the time. For there was this betokening of the Holy Spirit in all tongues [languages] to show that the gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a sign, and it passed away".

Theodoret of Cyrus (c. 393–c. 466):

In former times those who accepted the divine preaching and who were baptized for their salvation were given visible signs of the grace of the Holy Spirit at work in them. Some spoke in tongues which they did not know and which nobody had taught them, while others performed miracles or prophesied. The Corinthians also did these things, but they did not use the gifts as they should have done. They were more interested in showing off than in using them for the edification of the church. . . . Even in our time grace is given to those who are deemed worthy of holy baptism, but it may not take the same form as it did in those days.

(Source: Theodoret of Cyrus, Commentary on the First Epistle to the Corinthians, 240, 43; in reference to 1 Cor 12:1 , 7 . Cited from 1–2 Corinthians, ACCS, 117).

Martin Luther (1483–1546)

In the early Church the Holy Spirit was sent forth in visible form. He descended upon Christ in the form of a dove (Matt. 3:16 ), and in the likeness of fire upon the apostles and other believers. (Acts 2:3 .) This visible outpouring of the Holy Spirit was necessary to the establishment of the early Church, as were also the miracles that accompanied the gift of the Holy Ghost. Paul explained the purpose of these miraculous gifts of the Spirit in I Corinthians 14:22 , “Tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not.” Once the Church had been established and properly advertised by these miracles, the visible appearance of the Holy Ghost ceased.

(Source: Martin Luther, Commentary on Galatians 4, Trans. by Theodore Graebner [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1949], pp. 150-172. This is from Luther’s comment on Gal. 4:6 .)

John Owen (1616–1683):

Gifts which in their own nature exceed the whole power of all our faculties, that dispensation of the Spirit is long since ceased and where it is now pretended unto by any, it may justly be suspected as an enthusiastic delusion.

(Source: John Owen, Works, IV:518.)

Thomas Watson (1620–1686):

Sure, there is as much need of ordination now as in Christ’s time and in the time of the apostles, there being then extraordinary gifts in the church which are now ceased.

Actually, there are a few useful sources in this post, but of course the material that I require has to be based on a commentators views on to teleion, that which is perfect in 1 Cor 13:10.

For instance, we all know that MacArthur is a cessationist but I need material on a commentators views on 1Cor 13:10, such as with MacArthur's following commentary:

MacArthur's New Testament Commentary: 1 Corinthians (1984) see 1 Cor 13:10 -

THE PERFECT IS NOT THE COMPLETION OF SCRIPTURE

What, precisely, is the perfect thing that is to come? Some Christians believe the perfect has already come in the completion of Scripture. But that idea would have been meaningless to the Corinthians Nowhere in this letter does he mention or allude to such a scriptural completion. The Corinthian believers would have taken Paul’s meaning in the plainest and simplest way: as a reference to spiritual and moral perfection,the perfection to which the Lord calls all of His people: “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matt 5:48). Paul was speaking of completed holiness, of our one day actually becoming what God now counts, or reckons, us to be.

So any material that is based on 1 Cor 13:10 is always appreciated, though if the commentary comes from tractarianists or fringe players then I am not really interested in their commentary.

Presbyterian Continuist · Sep 8, 2017

Major1 said:
Wonderful. We do agree that the sign gifts are not in operation today.

However I must disagree with your opinion for the reason.

I do not question that the church has no power today and actually very few operate in the Holy Spirit.

If I may say this to you, the reason why the gifts are not in operation today is because God say that they would CEASE. That is exactly what Paul said in 1st Corinthians 13.

! Corinthians 13:8...........
"Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away."

That is a comparative statement showing that LOVE is with us ALWAYS but "Prophecies, knowledge and tongues" are going to come to and end....CEASE, VANISH AWAY.

Now we can call that all kinds of things. Most to today call that as you did ....."Cessationism".

Personal I do not care what it is called. I call it the Word of God and when He says those things will come to an end............they will come to and end!

What I wrote was Church History 101. Constantine's Edict of Tolerance stopped the real Church in its tracks and caused its decline into a formalised, paganised Church that ran on ceremonies instead of the free working of The Holy Spirit. By 500AD the Church was no longer the Church of Acts. It was a structured organisation without the involvement of The Holy Spirit. The only part of the original Church that was left was the Apostle's Creed. The only redeeming factor of it was that it kept a spark of true Christian faith against the onslaught of Islam. When the Barbarians defeated Rome, they were shocked at the rampant idolatry of the Church and they destroyed as many idols as they could. It was only 1000 years later that restoration of the Church began with Martin Luther. It was then that Justification by Faith was discovered and that true believers voluntarily accepted Christ as Saviour, whereas before church members were compelled to adopt Churchianity whether they like it or not. Except for a small remnant of true believers, most were conscripts who had no choice but to go every Sunday to the formalised, ritualistic services. Most did not even understand the liturgy because it was in Latin and they weren't educated to know the language. There were no Bibles available to the ordinary people until the printing press was invented, so ordinary church-goers were at the mercy of the priests who interpreted the scriptures for them.

Since the Reformation, there has been a slow re-introduction to the elements that made up the Church of Acts. But most denominational churches still retain much of the old formalised, ritualised order, and this limits the work of The Holy Spirit. The reason for the decline of the Western churches is that now attendance at church has become voluntary, most ordinary people have stayed away, except for the "nominal" church-goers who go to church for religious and social reasons, and not necessarily because they have accepted and love Christ. Those who do love Christ are relatively few in our churches.

In many churches, they pretend The Holy Spirit is working among them, but in reality, nothing is happening and most people are content with three hymns and a sermon in most evangelical churches, and the liturgical, formalised services in the others. People involved in Mission work more to get people to join their particular churches than actually accept Christ. Most church growth in most churches involves poaching members from other churches, rather than getting people to accept Christ as part of joining the fellowship. It is not a pleasant reality, but there it is. Unfortunately, Pentecostal and Charismatic churches are going the same way with successive generations.

These are the reasons why we don't see the supernatural gifts operating in our churches. They cannot, because churches are bound to their natural, formal, ritualised styles of worship so tightly that The Holy Spirit is blocked at the church door and is given no place there.

But there is a growing number of true believers who know that it is the structured church that is the problem and they are choosing to serve the Lord outside of the structure. The Home Group movement is part of that and it is growing. There are others in the denominational churches who are trying to change their churches from within, but I predict that in time they will be persecuted to such a degree that they will have to leave the formal structure and work for the Lord outside of it.

The Lord will build His Church - the spiritual Church, and there will be a major division between the apostate structural church and the spiritual Church. This division has already started and will grow wider so that the difference between formal, nominal churchianity and genuine Christianity will be very obvious.

If the Rapture happened today, some congregations will shrink, but in many churches not many people will disappear and the normal Sunday services will just continue as before, except that they will be churches without Christ and The Holy Spirit. But to the casual onlooker, there will be no difference between then and what they are today.

GoldenKingGaze · Sep 8, 2017

Why is it that the canon is considered complete, with some books missing from the NT. One letter of Paul's was lost, another not well accepted. Mary Magdalene's works were lost.

The letters are only complete with the oral tradition.

No one has responded to this question of the incomplete canon.
Also no one has explained why what Paul to Timothy called "word striving" is tolerated in a Christian forum.

Presbyterian Continuist · Sep 8, 2017

Major1 said:
Blessings to you brother and I realize how important it is for all who want to speak in tongues and have miracle healings done.

However, From what I have personally seen, and raised up in, the manifestation of tongues and healings is seen in EVERY Pentecostal church I have been in. Over the years (50) I do not know how many of those churches I have been in and every one of them breaks the directions given by Paul in 1 Corinthians. Not a FEW or SOME, but every single one.

Since we know that God said that these gifts would come to and end, I propose to you that what we are seeing today is actually the "Counterfeit".

I agree to a large extent. The Holy Spirit will not support any practice that goes against the teaching in God's Word. So when Paul, inspired by The Holy Spirit, teaches the Corinthians (and everyone else, according to the first chapter of the book) not to speak in tongues in public services if interpretation is not intended, then, when people go against that inspired teaching, I cannot see how what they are speaking is actually inspired by The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not going to contradict the inspired Word of God by supporting a practice that is not supported by it. I consider the book of 1 Corinthians as the inspired Word of God and it applies not only to the Corinthians but "to all believers everywhere."

A genuine tongues statement in a public service has to be followed with an interpretation. That is supported by Paul and therefore The Holy Spirit will support it.
So, when believers decide that they are not going to speak in tongues in public services, but choose rather to wait until they are in their private prayer closet where they can pray to God alone, then that is supported by The Holy Spirit as well. God is the only One who can say yea or nay to that because it is between that believer and his God in the secret place. No one can say whether the prayers in tongues are genuine or counterfeit in that environment because they would have no basis for judgment. They can only have a basis for judgment if believers are speaking out in tongues without interpretation in a public service. Then they can use 1 Corinthians 14 as the basis for their judgment that they are misusing tongues and therefore what they are speaking may not be inspired by The Holy Spirit but more likely by their natural minds. So instead of a flow of The Spirit out of them, all could be just meaningless sounds.

Of course there is the exception to the rule. In one service during an altar call, I was praying quietly in tongues for people being ministered to at the front. A bilingual Maori lady who was sitting beside me told me afterwards that I had been praying in the Maori language and through it God was saying encouraging things to her. I had not learned the language and had no idea what I was praying. I was not speaking it out, but praying quietly, but it must have been so that the lady beside me heard what I was saying. I can't explain that, but I was praying so quietly that no one else but her heard it, so I wasn't breaking Paul's teaching about tongues in a public meeting. I do think that God can sovereignly do something like that in order to encourage someone He loves.

Presbyterian Continuist · Sep 8, 2017

GoldenKingGaze said:
Why is it that the canon is considered complete, with some books missing from the NT. One letter of Paul's was lost, another not well accepted. Mary Magdalene's works were lost.

The letters are only complete with the oral tradition.

No one has responded to this question of the incomplete canon.
Also no one has explained why what Paul to Timothy called "word striving" is tolerated in a Christian forum.

There was no canon of New Testament scripture in the first century Early Church. No one at that time treated the writing of the gospels and the letter as Scripture. The Jewish believers used the Old Testament as their Scriptures, but the Gentile believers did not. And the First Century Church was the most powerful, while in successive centuries it was going into decline through heresies and schisms. The canon was finalised when the Church had most most of its power because it was sliding into formalism, and ceremonies were replacing free and spontaneous worship and preaching. There were a lot of Christian letters and literature floating around in the First Century, but relatively few of it has survived the Roman persecutions and destruction of Christian literature during the first three centuries. The canon resulted from a council of men decided which books were to be used as New Testament Scripture and what was not. It was a man-made decision to choose what they felt at the time was the most reliable and therefore the inspired Word of God. What was deemed inspired or not was man's decision. There would have been more if some of Paul's letters and others written by the Apostles or those closely associated with them had survived the Roman burning of the literature. So, although I accept our New Testament as the Word of God, it is not the perfect canon that Cessationists suppose. Therefore to say that the supernatural gifts ceased at the completion of the canon is guesswork and conjecture. What if in some cave somewhere, missing letters from Paul, Peter, or John were discovered and authenticated? The New Testament would have to be reorganised and the theology books rewritten. If the Dead Sea scrolls were discovered after 2000 years, then it is possible.

Presbyterian Continuist · Sep 8, 2017

Major1 said:
Please post the Bible verse that shows us the plan put in place of continuing the office of an Apostle.

Therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens of the saints and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone. In Him the whole building is fitted together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord. (Ephesians 2:19-21).

There is no indication that this was supposed to stop. Notice also that it does not refer to the 12 Apostles, otherwise "apostles" could start with a capital letter indicating it. The verse also indicates that the ministry of prophet is also included in the foundation on which the Church is built. Without apostles and prophets, the foundation is weak and subject to failure. At present the Church is too steeped in churchianity and division for the ministries of apostle and prophet to function as they should, but Christ is working in His Church to restore it to its original state so that these ministries can function and that the Church will be built up to the point where Jesus can come back for it. He is not going to come back for a ritualised, divided, churchianity. He will come back for His true saints and allow the others to carry on their churchianty as before - until He returns with His true Bride.

GoldenKingGaze · Sep 8, 2017

Oscarr said:
Therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens of the saints and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone. In Him the whole building is fitted together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord. (Ephesians 2:19-21).

There is no indication that this was supposed to stop. Notice also that it does not refer to the 12 Apostles, otherwise "apostles" could start with a capital letter indicating it. The verse also indicates that the ministry of prophet is also included in the foundation on which the Church is built. Without apostles and prophets, the foundation is weak and subject to failure. At present the Church is too steeped in churchianity and division for the ministries of apostle and prophet to function as they should, but Christ is working in His Church to restore it to its original state so that these ministries can function and that the Church will be built up to the point where Jesus can come back for it. He is not going to come back for a ritualised, divided, churchianity. He will come back for His true saints and allow the others to carry on their churchianty as before - until He returns with His true Bride.

Yes and Paul writes of apostles before him, Andronicus and Junias.

Major1 · Sep 8, 2017

Oscarr said:
Therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens of the saints and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone. In Him the whole building is fitted together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord. (Ephesians 2:19-21).

There is no indication that this was supposed to stop. Notice also that it does not refer to the 12 Apostles, otherwise "apostles" could start with a capital letter indicating it. The verse also indicates that the ministry of prophet is also included in the foundation on which the Church is built. Without apostles and prophets, the foundation is weak and subject to failure. At present the Church is too steeped in churchianity and division for the ministries of apostle and prophet to function as they should, but Christ is working in His Church to restore it to its original state so that these ministries can function and that the Church will be built up to the point where Jesus can come back for it. He is not going to come back for a ritualised, divided, churchianity. He will come back for His true saints and allow the others to carry on their churchianty as before - until He returns with His true Bride.

Now Oscar, you know as well as I do that Ephesians 2:19-21 is not in any way speaking to apostolic succession. My guess is that it was the only verse that you could think of that someone "might" accept as such.

Paul is actually reminding the Gentile believers that though they were strangers and alienated from God, their present position is infinitely bettered by being fellow citizens with the Jewish saints.

They by faith in Christ belong to a household not as servants but as relatives, as members of the family of God.

I agree with you on the apostles and prophets. I agree with you on the condition of the church. The fact is that when we read the verse we see that the prophets are in the same class as the apostles since the Greek article "THE" is not used, which would designate them as New Testament prophets.

But again, when we read the words there simply is nothing there that indicates that there is any direction given on how or if the office of an Apostle would continue on after the 12 had passed.

Major1 · Sep 8, 2017

GoldenKingGaze said:
Yes and Paul writes of apostles before him, Andronicus and Junias.

Now this right here is exactly why there is so much confusion and discord among Christians.

Nowhere does the Scriptures describe Andronicus and Junias as Apostles.

Here is where there names are found and it is in Romans 16:7.......................
"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me."

That says that they were well known to the apostles and were highly thought of by the apostles but it does not say that they were apostles. That is reading into the Scriptures what we want them to say and not understanding what they are in fact saying.

Major1 · Sep 8, 2017

Oscarr said:
There was no canon of New Testament scripture in the first century Early Church. No one at that time treated the writing of the gospels and the letter as Scripture. The Jewish believers used the Old Testament as their Scriptures, but the Gentile believers did not. And the First Century Church was the most powerful, while in successive centuries it was going into decline through heresies and schisms. The canon was finalised when the Church had most most of its power because it was sliding into formalism, and ceremonies were replacing free and spontaneous worship and preaching. There were a lot of Christian letters and literature floating around in the First Century, but relatively few of it has survived the Roman persecutions and destruction of Christian literature during the first three centuries. The canon resulted from a council of men decided which books were to be used as New Testament Scripture and what was not. It was a man-made decision to choose what they felt at the time was the most reliable and therefore the inspired Word of God. What was deemed inspired or not was man's decision. There would have been more if some of Paul's letters and others written by the Apostles or those closely associated with them had survived the Roman burning of the literature. So, although I accept our New Testament as the Word of God, it is not the perfect canon that Cessationists suppose. Therefore to say that the supernatural gifts ceased at the completion of the canon is guesswork and conjecture. What if in some cave somewhere, missing letters from Paul, Peter, or John were discovered and authenticated? The New Testament would have to be reorganised and the theology books rewritten. If the Dead Sea scrolls were discovered after 2000 years, then it is possible.

God love ya brother but when you said.........
"The canon resulted from a council of men decided which books were to be used as New Testament Scripture and what was not. It was a man-made decision to choose what they felt at the time was the most reliable and therefore the inspired Word of God. What was deemed inspired or not was man's decision".........

I have to disagree with you.

The simple answer is that God decided which books should be in the canon. He was the final determiner. J. 1. Packer writes:

"The church no more gave us the New Testament canon than Sir Isaac Newton gave us the force of gravity. God gave us gravity, by his work of creation, and similarly he gave us the New Testament canon, by inspiring the individual books that make it up".
(J. 1. Packer, God Speaks To Man, p. 81).

A distinction needs to be made between canonizing and collecting. No man or council can pronounce a work canonical or scriptural, yet man was responsible for collecting and preserving such works. F. F. Bruce writes:

"One thing must be emphatically stated. The New Testament books did not become authoritative for the Church because they were formally included in a canonical list; on the contrary, the Church included them in her canon because she already regarded them as divinely inspired, recognizing their innate worth and generally apostolic authority, direct or indirect. The first ecclesiastical councils to classify the canonical books were both held in North Africa-at Hippo Regius in 393 and at Carthage in 397-but what these councils did was not to impose something new upon the Christian communities but to codify what was already the general practice of these communities".
(F. F. Bruce, The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?, Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 1960, p. 27).

*****Hence the books we have as Scripture were inspired by God and recognized such by man.*****

Major1 · Sep 8, 2017

Oscarr said:
I agree to a large extent. The Holy Spirit will not support any practice that goes against the teaching in God's Word. So when Paul, inspired by The Holy Spirit, teaches the Corinthians (and everyone else, according to the first chapter of the book) not to speak in tongues in public services if interpretation is not intended, then, when people go against that inspired teaching, I cannot see how what they are speaking is actually inspired by The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not going to contradict the inspired Word of God by supporting a practice that is not supported by it. I consider the book of 1 Corinthians as the inspired Word of God and it applies not only to the Corinthians but "to all believers everywhere."

A genuine tongues statement in a public service has to be followed with an interpretation. That is supported by Paul and therefore The Holy Spirit will support it.
So, when believers decide that they are not going to speak in tongues in public services, but choose rather to wait until they are in their private prayer closet where they can pray to God alone, then that is supported by The Holy Spirit as well. God is the only One who can say yea or nay to that because it is between that believer and his God in the secret place. No one can say whether the prayers in tongues are genuine or counterfeit in that environment because they would have no basis for judgment. They can only have a basis for judgment if believers are speaking out in tongues without interpretation in a public service. Then they can use 1 Corinthians 14 as the basis for their judgment that they are misusing tongues and therefore what they are speaking may not be inspired by The Holy Spirit but more likely by their natural minds. So instead of a flow of The Spirit out of them, all could be just meaningless sounds.

Of course there is the exception to the rule. In one service during an altar call, I was praying quietly in tongues for people being ministered to at the front. A bilingual Maori lady who was sitting beside me told me afterwards that I had been praying in the Maori language and through it God was saying encouraging things to her. I had not learned the language and had no idea what I was praying. I was not speaking it out, but praying quietly, but it must have been so that the lady beside me heard what I was saying. I can't explain that, but I was praying so quietly that no one else but her heard it, so I wasn't breaking Paul's teaching about tongues in a public meeting. I do think that God can sovereignly do something like that in order to encourage someone He loves.

I am glad that a man of your knowledge and spiritual understanding would agree.

You said.............
"A genuine tongues statement in a public service has to be followed with an interpretation. "

That is what I said at the very beginning of this thread. However, I also said that MY experience over the years is that the speaking in tongues done in today's church is not Biblical because no one interprets those things uttered.

Major1 · Sep 8, 2017

GoldenKingGaze said:
Why is it that the canon is considered complete, with some books missing from the NT. One letter of Paul's was lost, another not well accepted. Mary Magdalene's works were lost.

The letters are only complete with the oral tradition.

No one has responded to this question of the incomplete canon.
Also no one has explained why what Paul to Timothy called "word striving" is tolerated in a Christian forum.

I am not aware of such a question and just so that you know, this thread is about the tongues movement today and is it Biblical or not.

Why don't you start a thread on just what you asked my friend????????

Major1 · Sep 8, 2017

Oscarr said:
What I wrote was Church History 101. Constantine's Edict of Tolerance stopped the real Church in its tracks and caused its decline into a formalised, paganised Church that ran on ceremonies instead of the free working of The Holy Spirit. By 500AD the Church was no longer the Church of Acts. It was a structured organisation without the involvement of The Holy Spirit. The only part of the original Church that was left was the Apostle's Creed. The only redeeming factor of it was that it kept a spark of true Christian faith against the onslaught of Islam. When the Barbarians defeated Rome, they were shocked at the rampant idolatry of the Church and they destroyed as many idols as they could. It was only 1000 years later that restoration of the Church began with Martin Luther. It was then that Justification by Faith was discovered and that true believers voluntarily accepted Christ as Saviour, whereas before church members were compelled to adopt Churchianity whether they like it or not. Except for a small remnant of true believers, most were conscripts who had no choice but to go every Sunday to the formalised, ritualistic services. Most did not even understand the liturgy because it was in Latin and they weren't educated to know the language. There were no Bibles available to the ordinary people until the printing press was invented, so ordinary church-goers were at the mercy of the priests who interpreted the scriptures for them.

Since the Reformation, there has been a slow re-introduction to the elements that made up the Church of Acts. But most denominational churches still retain much of the old formalised, ritualised order, and this limits the work of The Holy Spirit. The reason for the decline of the Western churches is that now attendance at church has become voluntary, most ordinary people have stayed away, except for the "nominal" church-goers who go to church for religious and social reasons, and not necessarily because they have accepted and love Christ. Those who do love Christ are relatively few in our churches.

In many churches, they pretend The Holy Spirit is working among them, but in reality, nothing is happening and most people are content with three hymns and a sermon in most evangelical churches, and the liturgical, formalised services in the others. People involved in Mission work more to get people to join their particular churches than actually accept Christ. Most church growth in most churches involves poaching members from other churches, rather than getting people to accept Christ as part of joining the fellowship. It is not a pleasant reality, but there it is. Unfortunately, Pentecostal and Charismatic churches are going the same way with successive generations.

These are the reasons why we don't see the supernatural gifts operating in our churches. They cannot, because churches are bound to their natural, formal, ritualised styles of worship so tightly that The Holy Spirit is blocked at the church door and is given no place there.

But there is a growing number of true believers who know that it is the structured church that is the problem and they are choosing to serve the Lord outside of the structure. The Home Group movement is part of that and it is growing. There are others in the denominational churches who are trying to change their churches from within, but I predict that in time they will be persecuted to such a degree that they will have to leave the formal structure and work for the Lord outside of it.

The Lord will build His Church - the spiritual Church, and there will be a major division between the apostate structural church and the spiritual Church. This division has already started and will grow wider so that the difference between formal, nominal churchianity and genuine Christianity will be very obvious.

If the Rapture happened today, some congregations will shrink, but in many churches not many people will disappear and the normal Sunday services will just continue as before, except that they will be churches without Christ and The Holy Spirit. But to the casual onlooker, there will be no difference between then and what they are today.

You said..............
"In many churches, they pretend The Holy Spirit is working among them, but in reality, nothing is happening and most people are content with three hymns and a sermon in most evangelical churches, and the liturgical, formalised services in the others."

AGREED!

You said..........
" The reason for the decline of the Western churches is that now attendance at church has become voluntary, most ordinary people have stayed away, except for the "nominal" church-goers who go to church for religious and social reasons, and not necessarily because they have accepted and love Christ."

AGREED!
I would only add that we as people have invented THINGS to replace going to church.
TV, Sporting events, Car races, going to the beach , boating and so on.

You said.........
" Most church growth in most churches involves poaching members from other churches, rather than getting people to accept Christ as part of joining the fellowship."

AGREED!
It is easier to proselyte someone than to go out door to door and visit and present the gospel.

You said............
"If the Rapture happened today, some congregations will shrink, but in many churches not many people will disappear and the normal Sunday services will just continue as before, except that they will be churches without Christ and The Holy Spirit."

AGREED! AMEN!
I would also say and have said many times that the Sunday after the Rapture, every church in the world will be filled and overflow. Fear will motivate the lost but it will be of no avail.

Is Speaking In Tongues Biblical Today?

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