Here's the most critical question for you ...

sdowney717 said:

Salvation is an ongoing process in the sense that we are eternally saved for all time, now and forever saved.

If we are saved after believeing, like Jesus says in John 5, we are saved for a salvation ready to be revealed at the last time like 1 Peter 1 and Hebrews 9 says, then salvation for believers really is an everlasting durable one.

Those who hear will live, and will not come into judgement, there will be no white throne judgement of their works for them who hear Christ.
John 5
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

If you are in Christ, and God has granted Christ to have life in Himself, they you too are alive having the nature of everlasting eternal life in the Son by nature, it is natural to you that you are therfore alive to God in the SPIRIT. Your life is hid with Christ in GOD.

Now salvation is continuous and has several meanings.
At the END, we receive a salvation when He returns for His people to save them from their existence in this wicked evil age.
The first time Christ came to forgive sins, the second time Christ comes with salvation, from the wrath of GOD poured out on this evil world.

Examples, His second advent is not to forgive sins, but to bring judgement on the wicked and to liberate the children of God from this current wicked age.
Hebrews 9:28
so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

1 Peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


Suffering of His people in this evil age is so that we are counted worthy of the kingdom of God.
His return for believers means salvation from their suffering persecutions, fiery trials, tribulations.

2 Thessalonians 1
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,

5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

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Ironically, the scriptures you employ as support for your belief can be interpreted to show the opposite of what you believe to be true.
Jn 5:24 promises everlasting life for those who are pisteuōn. This is a present tense participle indicating ongoing belief. Thus everlasting life is only promised to those who are "believing." If a Christian ceases to believe and abandons the faith then he no longer has everlasting life. Pay attention to the Greek verb tenses.
Heb 9:28 describes Christ's Second coming to "those who eagerly await Him." Do you suppose if you were engaging in habitual sin, unrepented of, would you be eagerly awaiting Him or would you be ashamed and reluctant to meet our Lord face to face? The scriptures promise eternal life only to those believers who persevere, overcome, wash and not defile their garments, fight the good fight and finish the race, etc. Those who don't - do not inherit everlasting life.
1 Pet 1:5 contains the phrase "THROUGH FAITH for salvation...." Salvation is gained through the vehicle of one's faith. The pertinent question is what does that faith consist of? Is it a cognitive faith only? Is it a faith that is marked by both belief AND obedience? After all, eternal life is only promised to those who obey Him (Heb 5:9). Faith without obedience is no faith at all so the promise of salvation is nullified.
Same thing with 2 Thess 1 as this passage describes the faithful brethren as those who love, have patience, suffer, endure through persecutions and tribulations. Not all Christians will persevere and in the midst of persecution and tribulation apostatize from the faith.

Are you able produce a statement from someone who says otherwise?

The difference between, say, me and some others (likely you) is that I have faith that I have passed from death to life and will never again come into condemnation. I have done so based on the work of the Holy Spirit, related to my spirit, who became a part of my innermost being the moment I "believed", in the Biblical sense of the word, and was justified before my creator.

That justified status was given to me because I have believed on Jesus Christ as God's provision for the forgiveness of my sins on the day of judgement.

"If you wish to believe otherwise, that is to your detriment but certainly your prerogative".

Frankly, as I view it, it is the difference between saving faith and religion.

Many are of the Christian religion ranging from out and out cults to liturgical types, to many types of Protestants. Many, perhaps even most, are good people who, in their own way, are attempting to follow God.

Many will point to their success in following God (Jesus if you will) when they meet Him face to face. Many have been more successful in refraining from sin and doing religious acts than I have, sad to say.

But many will be told that He never knew them in this life and to depart from Him. He calls them workers of iniquity when He sends them away.

The Lord says that they will be utterly speechless on that day. No doubt they never dreamed that they were not in the faith. No doubt many here in the forum have never dreamed that they may not have saving faith. After all - Jesus is their Lord.

As I view it, considering all the scriptures tell us about works vs. faith, the works of iniquity He speaks of are not overt sins. I fear that they are, instead, the preaching of a gospel of works in varying degrees from subtle like you and some other well meaning people are doing to great like the cults and some liturgical types are doing.

The difference between saving faith and some other kind of faith is often subtle. But it is real and dire.

Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith.[/QUOTE]
Belief is certainly a requirement for our being justified and saved as Jn 3:16 testifies to but one must also acknowledge obedience as a requirement for being justified and saved as Heb 5:9 testifies to. Belief unaccompanied by obedience is no saving faith at all.

The main scripture passage you refer to is from Matt 7 where Jesus tells them to depart from him. In order for you to claim that these persons were "not in the faith" you would have to explain how they prophesied IN YOUR NAME, cast out demons IN YOUR NAME, performed miracles IN YOUR NAME. Only regenerated believers who have the indwelling Spirit have the authority to use the name of Jesus to perform these supernatural acts. Unbelievers are never given the authority to use Jesus' name. Furthermore if these people were not in the faith, would they have not met the same fate as the sons of Sceva? If these were unbelievers who were not in the faith but yet cast out demons, would they not be dividing Satan's house against itself? That clearly would not make sense; therefore one can conclude that these were genuine believers. In spite of this, Jesus tells them that he never knew them; to depart and the reason he gives is found in v.23 where he refers to them as workers of inquity/lawlessness, practice lawlessness etc. The word for "lawlessness" is "anomia." A simple word survey reveals that it is highly unlikely that anomia refers to a "gospel of works" and not to "overt sins" as you claim. Its usage does in fact refer to overt, blatant and intentional sin. The man of lawless himself is referred to in 2 Thess 2:3 as anthrōpos ho anomia. It is extremely doubtful that the man of lawless will be preaching a gospel of works; instead he is a man of outright rebellion against God which is what lawlessness and inequity represents. Therefore I disagree with your claim that works of iniquity are not overt sins. Jesus only knows those who "listen" and "follow" him (Jn 10:27); those who practice lawlessness are told to depart.

BCsenior said:

T'was an historical comment.

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I'm not sure where you're coming from here either.

Please explain where I have "ignored many N.T. verses".

BCsenior said:

Historically, and in the here and now.
Sorry ... can't remember the details, nor do I have the patience for it.

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Fine then.

But, IMO, if you don't have the details and don't have the patience to look them up, you shouldn't make charges against a brother such as that he "continually chooses to IGNORE many NT verses". Nor should you double down in a later post by saying that I do it "historically and in the here and now".

But since you don't have the patience to continue we can let it go for now.

I'll offer one scripture passage in particular that people have difficulty with since it forces people to wrestle with their soteriological beliefs from a very practical standpoint instead of just theorizing about it.
Rev 14:9-12
And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus."

Those who believe that they are forever saved by virtue of their own premise, logically should have no difficulty with accepting the mark of the beast since by their belief system they are eternally secure despite the plain warning of this passage. OSAS even when you take the mark?
The other alternative which is equally unacceptable is that if you as a believer took the mark, then it would simply mean that you were never a believer in the first place. That would be a noxious notion to most believers as it nullifies their own personal testimony, belief and experience as a Christian. Taking the mark in the future would contradict your notion that you are presently a Christian - hard to believe but is inescapably true as a result of your own belief system.
You may protest and exclaim that taking the mark doesn't apply to me because I believe in the rapture and I won't be around when that time comes so it's an irrelevant scenario. However verse 12 specifically refers to the SAINTS and calls for them to endure/persevere, keep God's commandments and their faith in Jesus. So we definitely know the saints are present during this time. Whether these are the church age saints or the tribulation saints is another subject but the saints can only refer to genuine believers. These Christians are called to persevere and endure and keep the faith. Failure to do so results in eternal torment instead of eternal life. The Bible teaches conditional security.

Oldmantook said:

...............The Bible teaches conditional security.

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The Bible does teach conditional security.

But more to the point and more correctly - the Bible teaches conditional salvation.

Salvation requires a personal faith in Jesus Christ.

That faith and it's attendant justification, allows for and requires the possession of the Holy Spirit of God.

The Spirit of God in the life of the believer teaches the believer what he needs to know to be sanctified and leads the believer in the works of that sanctification which God has prepared beforehand that he should walk in.

A prime Biblical example of one of the works of sanctification God which has prepared for saints in the Tribulation period is refusing the mark of the beast and the reaping of martyrdom that that refusal begets.

The question is not whether a saved person would be lost if he does things which displease God. That question is fairly simple. The answer is a clear no as I see it.

The question is whether or not a believer would participate in a sin of the magnitude of taking the mark of the beast. As I see it, that answer is also a clear no.

BCsenior said:

Please tell me why NT passages such as these do NOT apply to you?

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I have removed the personal commentary which you put after every verse since you asked us to comment on the verses themselves and not you personal feelings.

Although I will point them out - I am also ignoring your parenthetical comments since they are not part of the verses you wish for us to comment on.

“… wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to (eternal)
destruction … narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which
leads to (eternal) life, and there are few who find it.” (Matthew 7:13-14)
No one who believes in eternal security of the believer denies this. In fact they believe that the way is so narrow that those who don’t trust solely in the work of Jesus Christ at Calvary as their only hope of salvation (adding human merit of any kind to his means to salvation) – likely will find themselves outside the gate on the day he meets Christ face to face.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, shall enter the kingdom
of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven …
I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you (approved of you); depart
from Me, you who practice lawlessness (sin)!’ ” (Matthew 7:21-23)

No one who believes in eternal security of the believer denies this. Note that the people Christ will say “I never knew you” to are those who point to their works done in Christ’s name as the reason they should be saved.

Does that ring any bells? It should.

“You will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures
to the end (until his death) will be saved (eternally).” (Matthew 10:22)

No one who believes in eternal security of the believer denies this. What they deny is that the verse says anything about those who fail to endure being lost. They also point out the very obvious fact that you have taken the liberty to all to the verse things which the Holy Spirit did not include in the verse. (Don’t add to the scriptures your own thoughts. Let them speak for themselves.)

“But if you want to enter into (eternal) life, keep the commandments.”
(Matthew 19:17)

No one who believes in eternal security of the believer denies what is said in the Matthew passage. Again I admonish you to stop inserting your own words into the scripture (whether in parenthesis or not).

Be that as it may – the verse from Matthew was the Lord’s reply to a man who asked what he must do to obtain eternal life. The Lord’s teaching to him was to the effect that no matter how good and pure the life of a person might be – there is always something lacking when it comes to being “good” in the sense which God requires for entry into Heaven. What is required for the “goodness” which allows you to enter into the presence of God is being found in the “goodness” of Jesus Christ on the day of judgement. That only happens when one trust in Jesus Christ and His accomplishments at Calvary as his only hope of salvation (abandoning any supposed righteousness found in his own person).

“He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me.”
(John 14:21, also John 14:23 & John 15:14)

No one who believes in eternal security of the believer denies what is said in the passages from John either.

In fact – let’s just make this short from now on out rather than try to show you in each and every case exactly how your charges against your brothers are wrong.

“If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter
into life maimed rather than having two hands and go to hell” (Mark 9:43)

No one who believes in eternal security of the believer denies this.

“For whoever desires to save his (worldly) life will lose it (eternal life)
but whoever loses his (worldly) life for My sake will save it (eternal life).
For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and is
himself destroyed or lost (eternal death)?” (Luke 9:24-25 and John 12:25)

No one who believes in eternal security of the believer denies this.

“And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh” (Galatians 5:24)

No one who believes in eternal security of the believer denies this.

“For if you live according to the flesh you will die (eternally)” (Romans 8:13)

No one who believes in eternal security of the believer denies this.

“Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows,
that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh
reap corruption (eternal death)” (Galatians 6:7-8)

No one who believes in eternal security of the believer denies this.

“… the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received
... by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which
I preached to you – unless you believed in vain.” (1 Corinthians 15:1-2)

No one who believes in eternal security of the believer denies this.

“Then when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full grown, brings forth (eternal) death.
Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.” (James 1:15-16)

No one who believes in eternal security of the believer denies this.

“But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare,
and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in
destruction and perdition (eternal death) … Command those who
are rich … that they may lay hold on to eternal life.” (1 Timothy 6:9-19)

No one who believes in eternal security of the believer denies this.

“ ‘My righteous ones will live by faith. But I will take no pleasure
in anyone who turns away.’ But we are not like those who turn
away from God to their own destruction (eternal death). We are
the faithful ones, whose souls will be saved.” (Hebrews 10:38-39)

No one who believes in eternal security of the believer denies this.

“In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest:
whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God” (1 John 3:10)

No one who believes in eternal security of the believer denies this.

“He who practices righteousness is righteous” (1 John 3:7)

No one who believes in eternal security of the believer denies this.

“He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God
and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable,
murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars
shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone,
which is the second death (eternal death).” (Revelation 21:7-8)

No one who believes in eternal security of the believer denies this.

“But there shall by no means enter it (the New Jerusalem) anything
that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those
who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.” (Revelation 21:27)

No one who believes in eternal security of the believer denies this.

“He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and
I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life” (Revelation 3:5)

No one who believes in eternal security of the believer denies this.

“To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne,
as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.”
(Revelation 3:21)

No one who believes in eternal security of the believer denies this.


“If you refuse to forgive others, your Father won’t forgive your sins.”
(Matthew 6:15)

No one who believes in eternal security of the believer denies this.

“Fear God, who has the power … to throw you into hell” (Luke 12:5)

No one who believes in eternal security of the believer denies this.


“… unless you repent you will all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:3 and 13:5)

No one who believes in eternal security of the believer denies this.

“… beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh
and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God … your sorrow
(over my first letter to you) led to repentance … For godly sorrow
produces repentance leading to salvation.” (2 Corinthians 7:1-10)

No one who believes in eternal security of the believer denies this.

“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)

No one who believes in eternal security of the believer denies this.

By the way - some of the obedience you point to here and elsewhere is attained experientially in the sanctification process of walking in the good works God has prepared for those who are His children.

But some of the things you would likely point to which are required for salvation were accomplished by Jesus during His life and is applied to His children in the justification and avocation work of Christ in Heaven.

It is obvious that you and some others do not believe in any of the theories of atonement which come under the umbrella of the “vicarious/substitutionary” atonement of the Savior.

This is the root of your problem here as I see it and why you find yourself at odds with those who do trust in the work of Jesus Christ to provide what is lacking in our own supposed personal righteousness as a path to salvation.

IMO – those who teach as you do concerning the way of salvation are a product of what is a rather shallow systematic theology.

UNLESS I GET A "OH - WAIT A MINUTE, I GET IT" --- THIS WILL DO IT FOR ME HERE. I DOUBT VERY MUCH THAT YOU'RE LOOKING FOR TRUTH AND DISCUSSION - ONLY ARGUMENT FOR IT'S OWN SAKE.

Oldmantook said:

Of course is is absolute nonsense to those who don't interpret scripture properly.

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When I see someone say something like this, I think that they aren't interested in a discussion but rather want to teach others what they must believe.

Marvin Knox said:

The Bible does teach conditional security.

But more to the point and more correctly - the Bible teaches conditional salvation.

Salvation requires a personal faith in Jesus Christ.

That faith and it's attendant justification, allows for and requires the possession of the Holy Spirit of God.

The Spirit of God in the life of the believer teaches the believer what he needs to know to be sanctified and leads the believer in the works of that sanctification which God has prepared beforehand that he should walk in.

A prime Biblical example of one of the works of sanctification God which has prepared for saints in the Tribulation period is refusing the mark of the beast and the reaping of martyrdom that that refusal begets.

The question is not whether a saved person would be lost if he does things which displease God. That question is fairly simple. The answer is a clear no as I see it.

The question is whether or not a believer would participate in a sin of the magnitude of taking the mark of the beast. As I see it, that answer is also a clear no.

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Sorry, but your response completely ignores Rev 14:12 where it states that perseverance and endurance is required of the SAINTS in reference to the mark of the beast. The saints clearly have a choice to make - accept or reject the mark. Do you dispute that accepting the mark does not displease God? You can choose to ignore that verse since you prefer to hang on to your theology but the answer is a clear yes according to the text.

Hank77 said:

When I see someone say something like this, I think that they aren't interested in a discussion but rather want to teach others what they must believe.

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If you even bothered to read my reply to the respondent who answered my post, you would be aware that my original post was labeled as nonsense so I responded in kind. Having said that, do you have something useful to contribute to the discussion?

Oldmantook said:

If you even bothered to read my reply to the respondent who answered my post, you would be aware that my original post was labeled as nonsense so I responded in kind. Having said that, do you have something useful to contribute to the discussion?

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I read the post you were replying to and then your post. Your saying nonsense was not my point. It was the bit about 'to those who don't interpret scripture properly'.
Are you saying that you didn't mean that? Were you joking?
If I misunderstood I sincerely apologize.

Hank77 said:

I read the post you were replying to and then your post. Your saying nonsense was not my point. It was the bit about 'to those who don't interpret scripture properly'.
Are you saying that you didn't mean that? Were you joking?
If I misunderstood I sincerely apologize.

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Thanks for your offer to apologize but no need for you to apologize as I meant what I wrote. As believers we can always agree to disagree without resorting to disparaging comments such as "nonsense." The fact is there is disagreement on how these scriptures are properly interpreted resulting in our disparate views so I was just stating the obvious from my point of view although I admit I overreacted to what I perceived was a pejorative remark.

Oldmantook said:

Sorry, but your response completely ignores Rev 14:12 where it states that perseverance and endurance is required of the SAINTS in reference to the mark of the beast.

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Sorry also. It does no such thing.

"Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus." Rev. 14:12

Oldmantook said:

The saints clearly have a choice to make - accept or reject the mark.

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No kidding.

Oldmantook said:

Do you dispute that accepting the mark does not displease God?

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No - of course not.
Where would you get such an idea?
Can you point to what I said which gave you that idea?

Oldmantook said:

You can choose to ignore that verse since you prefer to hang on to your theology but the answer is a clear yes according to the text.

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I have ignored no verse - let alone the one which I commented on here.

No one who has truly believed on the Lord will ever come into condemnation.

Anyone who takes the mark will be condemned.

Therefore no saint will take the Mark of the beast.

It's plain and simple logic.

Read my posts carefully. There is no reason to misunderstand what I have said.

Do the same with verses from scripture such as Rev. 14:12. There is no reason to misunderstand what it says and doesn't say.

BCsenior said:

Thou artest totally and completely out of your mind.

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To the contrary. I have the mind of Christ.

BCsenior said:

Adhering to Jesus' commandments means obeying them!

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Yes - and your point?

BCsenior said:

It also teaches that one must practice righteousness to be righteous, etc.

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It also teaches that we are the very righteousness of God in Christ.

That is if our life is hidden in Christ through our identification with His work on our behalf.

You obviously have not done that - depending instead on your own righteousness to commend you to God on the day of judgment.

You may well be a better man than me in so far as your success in denying the flesh in this life.

But good luck with presenting that on the day of judgment.