The worst thing about Calvinism

Hammster · Sep 7, 2017

ClementofA said:
You already said regeneration is irresistible. So it is forced regeneration. Is that too hard to admit?

Irresistible is even stronger than mere force. It is an irresistible force.

How is it that regeneration is irresistibly forced, but salvation is not?

Of course "irresistible" and "force" are not how the "Bible speaks of it". Paul says the love of Christ "constraineth" him, which is another way of saying "forces" him.

I'm not sure I understand the question. Regeneration is part of salvation. So the dichotomy you are proposing doesn't make sense.

Hammster · Sep 7, 2017

ClementofA said:
Where does salvation fit into that? How does your comment avoid co-op salvation by the repenting of your own freewill that you spoke of? BTW i'm quite sure that life precedes birth, which is why abortion is murder.

If libertarian free will is not true, then what else is there but determinism?

Like the previous reply, this question makes no sense since regeneration is part of salvation.

Hammster · Sep 7, 2017

RisenInJesus said:
I believe they died and either went to Abraham's bosom or Hades to await the final judgement (Luke 16:22-23) depending upon their attitude and response of faith or rejection toward the light God revealed to each of them through their own conscience or other sources.

There are examples recorded in the scriptures of Gentiles who were not a part of Israel, nor under the law, yet they responded to God in faith. Abraham was a prime example. Jonah was sent to preach repentance to the pagan Assyrian city of Nineveh (Jonah 1:1-2) and they repented (Jonah 3:5-10), but their repentance did not involve becoming a part of Israel. The book of Obadiah was a rebuke against the pagan Edomites. The book of Nahum was another rebuke to Nineveh. Hiram, the king of Tyre (2 Chron. 2:12), the queen of Sheba (1 Kings 10:9), and king Darius of the Medes (Dan. 6:26) were all Gentiles that praised God but did not follow Mosaic Law. Nebuchadnezzar was punished by God, repented, and was restored to his senses and praised God, but he was not under the Mosaic Law (Dan. 4:28-37).

"God not only speaks to each person’s five senses through His creation, but continually speaks to each person inwardly through his or her conscience, calling each to turn from sin and turn to righteousness. That inward voice is programmed within every person who has ever lived. In giving every person a conscience, was God’s intention to motivate them to do what is pleasing in His sight during their lives so He could eventually cast them into hell? Obviously not. Rather, it was to motivate them to repentance, faith, and salvation.

Is it possible that at least some of the millions of Gentiles who lived before Christ, who never once heard a verse from the Old Testament—many having lived before a single word of the Old Testament was penned, and many having lived beyond the range of its knowledge, scattered around the globe—might have rightly responded to creation and conscience, which were both designed by God to draw all people to Himself? And if they believed in God and repented, would God have forgiven them? And might some of them have continued in faith, following the voice of their conscience, and died in a state of righteousness? And if so, would God have accepted them and granted them eternal life on the basis of the fact that Jesus died for their sins, making their forgiveness by a righteous God possible? I think the answer to all of those questions is yes."
Salvation B.C. and A.D. - David Servant

Sounds like it would have been better to not be part of Israel because you didn't need your sins atoned for.

Hammster · Sep 7, 2017

RisenInJesus said:
What do you think happened to them?

They died in their sins.

Hammster · Sep 7, 2017

OzSpen said:
A one-liner does not address the content of what I posted.

The context has it linked to my previous point. So it's not a One liner.

RisenInJesus · Sep 7, 2017

Hammster said:
They died in their sins.

Okay, so you are saying that everyone who was not a part of the nation of Israel died in their sins. Then after they died where do you think they spend eternity?

Hammster · Sep 7, 2017

RisenInJesus said:
Either you are playing as if you are biblically illiterate or you need to do a basic Bible study on the significance of the OT sacrifices and their purpose in pointing to Christ and His one ultimate sacrifice and atonement for the sins of the world; Israel and Gentile.

For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,
“Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have prepared for Me;“Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come (In the scroll of the book it is written of Me) To do Your will, O God.’”
Hebrews 10:1-7

I agree with that. It's linked to the Day of Atonement which was for God's chosen people.

Hammster · Sep 7, 2017

RisenInJesus said:
Okay, so you are saying that everyone who was not a part of the nation of Israel died in their sins. Then after they died where do you think they spend eternity?

To be clear, everyone who is not one of His people will die in their sins and spend eternity away from Him in hell.

RisenInJesus · Sep 7, 2017

Hammster said:
To be clear, everyone who is not one of His people will die in their sins and spend eternity away from Him in hell.

And what makes someone one of His people so that they do not have to spend eternity away from God? Do you believe that every person who lived throughout the historical period of the OT that were not a part of the nation of Israel will spend eternity in hell apart from God?

Hammster · Sep 7, 2017

RisenInJesus said:
And what makes someone one of His people so that they do not have to spend eternity away from God? Do you believe that every person who lived throughout the historical period of the OT that were not a part of the nation of Israel will spend eternity in hell apart from God?

I was specific in that it's everyone who are His.

As to your first question, they will be those who are chosen by Him.

jimmyjimmy · Sep 7, 2017

Hal A Peno said:
Si_monfaith said: ↑

That makes no sense. For the mind to be regenerated and be transformed, one must believe in something that regenerates it! How do people fall for such distorted stuff as Calvinism?

Yes. *You* must be the actor, and God must take his cue from you.

Hal A Peno · Sep 7, 2017

wertp.

jimmyjimmy · Sep 7, 2017

Hal A Peno said:
Now that's....really, really deep.

I try to match my replies to the post.

RisenInJesus · Sep 7, 2017

Hammster said:
I was specific in that it's everyone who are His.

As to your first question, they will be those who are chosen by Him.

During the history of the OT, do you believe others besides those of Israel were chosen by God or did all others perish to eternal separation from God? Does the Bible indicate that every person of Israel was chosen to be saved and have eternal life with God?

jimmyjimmy · Sep 8, 2017

RisenInJesus said:
During the history of the OT, do you believe others besides those of Israel were chosen by God or did all others perish to eternal separation from God? Does the Bible indicate that every person of Israel was chosen to be saved and have eternal life with God?

The history of Israel proves that men cannot redeem themselves. Nothing proves Calvin right more than reading the history of Israel.

RisenInJesus · Sep 8, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
The history of Israel proves that men cannot redeem themselves. Nothing proves Calvin right more than reading the history of Israel.

Your opinion about Calvin is not surprising, but that doesn't answer the questions in any way. I don't know any believer who thinks men can redeem themselves.

RisenInJesus · Sep 8, 2017

Hammster said:
I was specific in that it's everyone who are His.

As to your first question, they will be those who are chosen by Him.

Do you know whether you are chosen?

Hammster · Sep 8, 2017

RisenInJesus said:
During the history of the OT, do you believe others besides those of Israel were chosen by God or did all others perish to eternal separation from God? Does the Bible indicate that every person of Israel was chosen to be saved and have eternal life with God?

See previous answer for the first question.

As to the second, see Romans 9.

Hammster · Sep 8, 2017

RisenInJesus said:
Do you know whether you are chosen?

Yes.

Si_monfaith · Sep 8, 2017

Jason0047 said:
But you are singing the same tune as Calvin is. You are talking about how salvation is entirely out of our hands (i.e. Calvinism's Unconditional Election).

Why? Do you not know about the standard Calvinism belief (Tulip)?

Then what you do here does not matter. If everything is predetermined by God, then you have to accept that God is the author of evil and sin. You have to conclude that God desires certain men to be damned so that they can sin. But it is never God's will that any man should sin. The Bible says that God does not even tempt man to sin but that man is drawn away by his own lusts and desires (James 1:13-14). So certainly God would never force man into a depraved state of sin. For there is no darkness in God (1 John 1:5). God is love (1 John 4:8), and God is good (Matthew 19:17).

Not true. The very definition of what "true love" is all about free will. For married couples each choose of their own free will to love each other. But if a man forced his love upon a woman whereby she did not want that love, then that would be something dark and twisted and not "true love."

Yes, there is no denying that God draws us by His love and what He has done for us with His death, resurrection, and ascension (after He told mary not to touch him), and that salvation is initially and ultimately a free gift, and that He changes our hearts and spirits to be brand new and different, and that we receive the Lord live within us (and His amazing love and peace), but our Lord also said that if you love me, you will keep my commandments. Keeping the commandments is not something that you just automatically do. In fact, believing on Jesus Christ is a commandment (1 John 3:23). In fact, the Lord commands all men everywhere to repent according to the Scriptures (Acts of the Apostles 17:30). A command is an instruction from God to man. There are close to a thousand commands in the New Testament alone. So to say that God force saves us to do His will when God has many commands for us to obey is just silly. For we know many today are not perfectly obeying God's commands or even close to doing that. Yet, it is God's will for you to be holy (1 Thessalonians 4:3). Yet, we know that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). Yet, we know that we can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). Yet, we know that the Lord is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY him (Hebrews 5:9). Yet, we know Jesus said, if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). For to fear God and to keep His commandments is the whole duty of man (Ecclesiastes 12:13). In fact, God warns us against the deceitfulness of sin so that it may not harden our hearts (Hebrews 3:13). Instructions and truths like these in our Bibles would not make any sense if God just forced saved some and forced damned others. For we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). But believe whatever you like. Just know that what you believe is not even remotely taught in the Bible.

Is the human will free?

Rom 14:23: "for whatsoever is not of faith is sin".

According to the above verse, even the choices of eating and sleeping etc of the unelected is an act of sin and therefore sin is in control. Thus his will is not free.

Secondly, the unelected needs external data (no data is intrinsic to an individual) to make a choice. Thus his will is again not free.

However, God's will is free because He shows love to the elect without any need for external data. Moreover, since God elects from His will and not from His nature of love, He needs no data from His nature of love. Thus His will is absolutely free when making choices!

The worst thing about Calvinism

Psalm 144:1

Psalm 144:1

Psalm 144:1

Psalm 144:1

Psalm 144:1

Well-Known Member

Psalm 144:1

Psalm 144:1

Well-Known Member

Psalm 144:1

Pardoned Rebel

Well-Known Member

Pardoned Rebel

Well-Known Member

Pardoned Rebel

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Psalm 144:1

Psalm 144:1

Let God alone answer through us

Similar threads