Is the Gospel undefinable?

janxharris

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We are enjoined to believe in Christ (John 6:26) and the essence of that belief is the Gospel. But is the Gospel clearly defined?

Paul speaks clearly in 1 Corinthians 15:1-11:

1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.
However, in Romans 9:10-24, Paul says something quite different:

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

What, exactly, are we being asked to put our faith in?
If the Gospel is undefinable and undefined, then is faith even possible?
 
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We are enjoined to believe in Christ (John 6:26) and the essence of that belief is the Gospel. But is the Gospel clearly defined?

Paul speaks clearly in 1 Corinthians 15:1-11:

1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.
However, in Romans 9:10-24, Paul says something quite different:

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

What, exactly, are we being asked to put our faith in?
If the Gospel undefinable and undefined, then is faith even possible?
The Gospel is plain, that Jesus Christ has conquered sin and death and is raised to God's right hand. We who believe and keep His commandments, He reveals Himself to us and we come to know Him as a personal friend - a saviour who teaches us and instructs us in the way to follow His example.

It is about knowing that we have faith in The One who commands all the host of heaven, and because He approves of us (seeing as we listen to Him and obey Him), then all the host of heaven serves Him while we represent Him and He does work in the world through bringing others to an accurate knowledge of Him.

Not everybody pursues the gospel as it is intended though (that is: to actually know Jesus). Many who take up a Christian religion merely adopt a belief system that subdues their anxieties about death and instils a self-replicating philosophy, to grow a community that essentially pays a 10% tax to it's body-corporate. Sometimes I refer to it as hypnosis - that is to say, they actually have deluded themselves through doctrines that contradict reality and truth, so that their beliefs and philosophies often promote assumptions and speculations as though being fact, and even teach ideas that contradict what the scriptures plainly say.

If you're interested to know the facts about some of the core topics in Christianity, I have assembled a pocket-sized booklet for that purpose, that shows what the scriptures say with regard to a few main topics. It is not like the tracts of organised religion where they try to make you assimilate to a regime. There is no speculation, no guilt-trip, no insults, no demands. Just facts and food for thought :)

Adonai Reigns : The Gospel : God did not send his son to condemn the world!
 
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janxharris

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If you're interested to know the facts about some of the core topics in Christianity, I have assembled a pocket-sized booklet for that purpose, that shows what the scriptures say with regard to a few main topics. It is not like the tracts of organised religion where they try to make you assimilate to a regime. There is no speculation, no guilt-trip, no insults, no demands. Just facts and food for thought :)

Adonai Reigns : The Gospel : God did not send his son to condemn the world!

Thanks - if it relates to this thread then it might be helpful.
 
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Soyeong

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We are enjoined to believe in Christ (John 6:26) and the essence of that belief is the Gospel. But is the Gospel clearly defined?

Paul speaks clearly in 1 Corinthians 15:1-11:

1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.
However, in Romans 9:10-24, Paul says something quite different:

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

What, exactly, are we being asked to put our faith in?
If the Gospel undefinable and undefined, then is faith even possible?

What do you see as the difference between those passages?
 
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janxharris

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What do you see as the difference between those passages?

Paul's words in Romans 9 may be said to facilitate the interpretation that Pharaoh and others were without recourse to salvation. If true then declaring the Gospel as stated in 1 Cor. 15 would be problematic since one could not in good conscience do so to all and sundry without a Romans 9 style caveat.
 
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Soyeong

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Paul's words in Romans 9 may be said to facilitate the interpretation that Pharaoh and others were without recourse to salvation. If true then declaring the Gospel as stated in 1 Cor. 15 would be problematic since one could not in good conscience do so to all and sundry without a Romans 9 style caveat.

The word used for harden means to strengthen, such as with hardened armor, so when God hardened Pharaoh's heart, He strengthened his resolve, which means that God gave him the extra option to resist instead of taking away his options. Pharaoh was given many opportunities to give in, but he did not take them.
 
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janxharris

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The word used for harden means to strengthen, such as with hardened armor, so when God hardened Pharaoh's heart, He strengthened his resolve, which means that God gave him the extra option to resist instead of taking away his options. Pharaoh was given many opportunities to give in, but he did not take them.

Thanks.

Paul explicitly says that it's not about doing good or bad.
 
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Serving Zion

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Thanks - if it relates to this thread then it might be helpful.
Yes, you asked "what exactly it is, that we are being asked to put our faith in". We are asked to put our faith in the relationship we can have with the risen Lord, Jesus Christ (John 14:21-24). Not every presentation of The Gospel teaches this, as many are simply to form a belief system that makes you fit into the machine.

The booklet I have produced is done so through prayer with a different ambition, even down to the very images chosen and the order of the pages. If one is seeking to know The Lord, and thoroughly considers the material in good faith, it is able to lead them to an understanding of who He is and what The Gospel is for - into a covenant with Him (that is, to receive salvation from His hand (consider John 10:3-5)).
 
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janxharris

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I do not understand your question here, can you please clarify for me?

Paul's words in Romans 9 suggest that not all are provided for:

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
 
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jimmyjimmy

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The word used for harden means to strengthen, such as with hardened armor, so when God hardened Pharaoh's heart, He strengthened his resolve, which means that God gave him the extra option to resist instead of taking away his options. Pharaoh was given many opportunities to give in, but he did not take them.

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Mercy and hardening are in contrast. Your (Soyeong) theory doesn't work.
 
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janxharris

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Mercy and hardening are in contrast. Your (Soyeong) theory doesn't work.

So are you saying that the Gospel is qualified by the limitation Paul puts on it in Romans 9? Are you saying that some folk are, as Pharaoh and Esau, beyond salvation?
 
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Serving Zion

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Paul's words in Romans 9 suggest that not all are provided for:

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
Yes, that is right. We all have to make choices, and the choices we make have consequences, owing to our memory in light of our conscience.

Whenever The Holy Spirit is present, He convicts us of whatever we have not repented. This burden can be too great for some people, and just as Adam and Eve did, they hide from God so their nakedness should not be exposed. They will keep denying the conviction of The Holy Spirit until they die (John 8:19-27), and because they are unwilling to acknowledge their sin and repent of it, they are forced to use deceit for their peace of mind. God is unable to share the fullness of His love with them, because they love lies and hate the truth. But this has always been the case, even before Jesus came and we entered the era of the New Covenant: "The Gospel of The Kingdom" (Luke 16:16, Mark 11:30).

The difference in our era from before, is that Jesus has accomplished the "Alpha" of His work (Matthew 12:29, Matthew 28:18, John 1:12-13), by condemning those who had hijacked The Kingdom (Matthew 21:33-46) and re-establishing it (Matthew 5:20, Luke 11:51) through the qualification of faith alone rather than genetic ancestry (John 4:23, Matthew 8:10-12).
 
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janxharris

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Yes, that is right. We all have to make choices, and the choices we make have consequences, owing to our memory in light of our conscience.

Whenever The Holy Spirit is present, He convicts us of whatever we have not repented. This burden can be too great for some people, and just as Adam and Eve did, they hide from God so their nakedness should not be exposed. They will keep denying the conviction of The Holy Spirit until they die (John 8:19-27), and because they are unwilling to acknowledge their sin and repent of it, they are forced to use deceit for their peace of mind. God is unable to share the fullness of His love with them, because they love lies and hate the truth. But this has always been the case, even before Jesus came and we entered the era of the New Covenant: "The Gospel of The Kingdom" (Luke 16:16, Mark 11:30).

The difference in our era from before, is that Jesus has accomplished the "Alpha" of His work (Matthew 12:29, Matthew 28:18, John 1:12-13), by condemning those who had hijacked The Kingdom (Matthew 21:33-46) and re-establishing it (Matthew 5:20, Luke 11:51) through the qualification of faith alone rather than genetic ancestry (John 4:23, Matthew 8:10-12).

You see (in Romans 9) no predetermined salvation based on God's sovereign choice irrespective of anything (good or bad) that we might do?
 
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jimmyjimmy

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So are you saying that the Gospel is qualified by the limitation Paul puts on it in Romans 9? Are you saying that some folk are, as Pharaoh and Esau, beyond salvation?

All folks are beyond salvation.
 
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So what, exactly, is the 'good news'?

In one sense, all men are beyond salvation. They are "dead in their trespasses and sins". In another, they are not - because of Christ's work.

Men who were without hope of being reconciled to God can be reconciled to God through Christ, by substitutionary atonement.

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all." (Isaiah 53:6)
 
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