Expect personally, no, nor would I be all that moved if those things did happen. They're not the sort of things that I need or desire or seek after.
You would be told that that is a very good answer.
Very good.
I know angels are there, and I don't need to see them to believe they are. Nor do I desire or expect to have the glory of God visibly descend upon me. I've felt His presence descend upon me tangibly numerous times, although I certainly wouldn't reject the idea of His Presence resting upon me as to be visible. And seeing those things happen more within the body of Christ would in my mind be a good thing, so long as (as we have been stating) it didn't result in some form of pride being entertained. But I wouldn't teach anyone that they should expect those experiences. Those types of experiences are given by God as He so wills.
Yes. The only problem is that people being what they are, and demons tempting as they do, it would be a very great risk to pride. I will simply say this - this is another reason we don't make a big deal out of miracles. And some people who have miraculous things happen associated with them (not speaking particularly of visitation here) tend to not tell people, or want others who might know not to tell, while they are alive at least. That is very common.
I understand what you are saying here, and the likelihood is that this format works better under your denomination than others maybe, as it sounds anyway like you have good and anointed leadership at the top. But from my background those last words scare me. I've seen terrible abuses in the name of "submission to authority," FALSE authority that I advise every believer on the planet to run from and not look back. So while I understand the principle if good leadership is in place, I personally can attest to the incredible dangers of "submitting oneself" and "making oneself accountable" to leadership that is less than stellar at best, and horrifying at worst. To me, the dangers inherent in those principles exceed that of receiving false visions or dreams by far, but maybe that's due to my own experience and what I've seen has led to far more spiritual destruction in believer's lives.
I agree. And I suppose that may be the heart of the issue for me.
This is good.
I would agree, only this unfortunately is the type of terminology that very controlling types also liked to use when I was growing up as a Christian to say that I should not listen to the voice and leading of God myself. They used the term "Lone Ranger" Christians. Thank God I decided to follow His leading instead, or the Lord only knows where I would be today, but I can virtually guarantee you that I would have left the church altogether or been expelled, one of the two, lol. The amount of spiritual abuse I've witnessed Christians being subjected to, and which I myself was told I needed to submit to, is a little too depressing to think about or even discuss.
All of this basically falls under one category, and I had to step back a moment and put myself into my "old shoes" to appreciate what you're saying.
Yes, I understand how the fear of potential abuses would make it sound most unwise, what I'm suggesting. In my prior experience, I had good pastoral advisors. I had mediocre ones. I had those that would have been (and in a case or two were) disastrous for me to follow. That is a very real risk in Christendom in general.
(When I attended a large AoG fellowship, which later it came out that there were some problems, the pastor used to lay hands and pray for people near the end of the service. I tried for weeks without success to wait on him, and he always seemed to turn another direction before getting to where I waited. So I got the bright idea to wait in the exit vestibule, because he would do a frenzy of laying hands and praying in the way out. Sure enough, he came towards me, loudly praying for all, laying hands on every head. It was a hubbub. He got to me ... and froze. His hands stopped midair, his expression was frozen (and looked a little terrified). I didn't understand. And then he dropped his hands to his side, turned, and walked quickly away without another word. And I felt I'd been spared from something. Not many months after that, everything crashed for that ministry. Just a little anecdote ... )
It was never meant to be so, of course. And the Orthodox Church is not perfect, but there is very rarely the kind of shepherding that involves abuse, and generally speaking those people are quickly removed and never reinstated. And people know about it. If one were to ask, they would be warned, where necessary. That is one benefit of having a hierarchy, and oversight for the presbyters, and the fact that one can't just decide to be a priest but must be accepted and ordained. Not perfect - no human thing ever will be, but with the processes and oversight put in place by the Apostles, it is as good as it can be ... and that is overall very, very good. But yes, I can understand someone shuddering to read what I wrote and thinking of applying it in some places.
I also speak of it more than a typical layperson, and I should be aware of that when I talk to others. (I rather zealously pursued intense methods of prayer without oversight decades ago, and because of serious mistakes I made and what I've since learned, I choose to submit myself to oversight more now than is typical for a layperson.) However, even so, in my case, it is still really just guidance. True obedient submission is something only monastics do, and they willingly accept and choose this. I don't want to give the impression that the Church expects to rule everyone with an iron fist.
As a matter of fact, everyone is quite free to choose whoever they will listen to for guidance, and to what degree. For convenience sake, most people go to their own parish priest. Some go to another parish priest. Some choose a monk or priest at a monastery. Some rely most heavily on an experienced person they know and respect.
And since as you mentioned, most aren't expecting something to the degree of visitation, there is a limit to the level of guidance most of them even need.
Generally speaking, it is much more accurate to say that the Church gives us borders ... we know what things are safe to do and believe, and within that we have tremendous freedom. Likewise, the Church gives us practices and disciplines to use as tools for our spiritual growth. The degree to which we make use of them is really up to the individual. The priest may encourage all to pursue spiritual growth, but he never demands, and from what I've seen, rarely even chastises broadly.
In a sense, he himself is another tool provided by the Church, that we can choose to use for our guidance and receive help. I don't want to make it sound like a rulership situation. He is responsible, such as in the case of our priest, once told me that he had withheld a person from communion for a time because they doubted the divinity of Christ, but in that case to receive communion would have been to their condemnation. As I said, we have borders, and recognizing Christ as God is a necessary one, for an example.
No, no. I simply mean like the things Matt and others brought up regarding revelations that have been incorporated into the liturgy.
Ok, this sounds good, and those works should be translated, Imo. But further amplification on the revelations of God is something I believe will be going on for all eternity. You see, I don't believe the revelations of God ever stop. If they did, I believe mediations upon the word of God and the things of God would eventually get boring even in Heaven. But it's never been my experience that the unfolding revelations of God ever became stale or dry or redundantly repetitive because I continually seek Him for more of it, and He always provides, with or without a spiritual father or advisor.
Hopefully we are on the same page then.
No, discovering more about God will never end, and is never boring. And we would agree that it will go on for all of eternity. That is something I rarely hear affirmed outside of Orthodoxy.
I am reminded of a friend I used to study with who lost interest in going to church because he wanted a pastor that would give him something completely new every week. That is extreme, I'm afraid. But it is an example of "itching ears" to the extreme, and I'm reminded that we stay far away from that kind of mindset. (I'm not saying you are suggesting that at all ... just part of the reason for my own caution.)
Sorry, I know this conversation is a bit scattered. But you don't know how much I appreciate your reactions, especially the doubtful and objecting ones. It is easy to forget where I came from, and how differently things can be understood, depending on what your frame of reference may be.
Thank you. And btw, I truly do respect that Ancient Way as I understand it. I was recommending the spiritual disciplines to a friend of mine just the other day who is going through a very rough time and whom I thought a more spiritually disciplined lifestyle would really do him some good. I even encouraged him to look into things deeper.
