How Do Calvinists Explain These Verses in the Story of Jonah?

Bible Highlighter · Sep 6, 2017

Hammster said:
The Coast Guard is obligated to save all they can. God is not under that same obligation.

Yes, God is obligated to save all men that He can because God is good and loving. For God is not willing that any should persih, but that all should come to repentance.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 6, 2017

Hammster said:
What's the answer from your worldview? Is God's morality internal or external?

God's morality is a part of His natural being (internally) that can be seen in His thoughts externally (that are written within His Word) and His actions externally (that can be seen in the real world and by His Word). God's morality for man is even imbedded within the creation, as well. This is why we can make parables and stuff in regards to God's morality or goodness.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 6, 2017

Okay, so lets get back to the story of Jonah and how that works in the world of Calvinism.

lesliedellow · Sep 6, 2017

Jason0047 said:
You want me to answer your question from your world view and not from what I believe the Scriptures say.

I want you to answer the question, period. It is an elementary rule of logic that either A or not-A must be true, quite independently of anything else.

lesliedellow · Sep 6, 2017

Jason0047 said:
God's morality is a part of His natural being (internally) that can be seen in His thoughts externally (that are written within His Word) and His actions externally (that can be seen in the real world and by His Word). God's morality for man is even imbedded within the creation, as well. This is why we can make parables and stuff in regards to God's morality or goodness.

At last. So God is not answerable to anybody except himself.

Hammster · Sep 6, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Yes, God is obligated to save all men that He can because God is good and loving. For God is not willing that any should persih, but that all should come to repentance.

Then by your own standards of How God should act, He's a failure.

lesliedellow · Sep 6, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Yes, God is obligated to save all men that He can because God is good and loving. For God is not willing that any should persih, but that all should come to repentance.

He obviously didn't feel himself obligated to save the Egyptians. Even before Moses' first encounter with Pharoah, it is said that God had hardened his heart.

Furthermore, Exodus 9 contains these words, addressed to Pharaoh:

Exodus 9:16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 6, 2017

lesliedellow said:
He obviously didn't feel himself obligated to save the Egyptians. Even before Moses' first encounter with Pharoah, it is said that God had hardened his heart.

The pharoah hardened his own heart first.

See Exodus 7:22, Exodus 8:15, Exodus 8:19, Exodus 8:32.

As for saving the Egyptians: It is free will that determines whether somebody follows God or not. They obviously did not want to follow the true Lord but they wanted their false gods and their sin instead.

Hammster · Sep 6, 2017

lesliedellow said:
He obviously didn't feel himself obligated to save the Egyptians. Even before Moses' first encounter with Pharoah, it is said that God had hardened his heart.

Furthermore, Exodus 9 contains these words addressed to Pharaoh:

Exodus 9:16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

And there was that whole drowning them part which He could have avoided, at the very least.

Hammster · Sep 6, 2017

Jason0047 said:
The pharoah hardened his own heart first.

See Exodus 7:22, Exodus 8:15, Exodus 8:19, Exodus 8:32.

But not exclusively. See Romans 9 as well.

lesliedellow · Sep 6, 2017

Jason0047 said:
The pharoah hardened his own heart first.

See Exodus 7:22, Exodus 8:15, Exodus 8:19, Exodus 8:32.

As for saving the Egyptians: It is free will that determines whether somebody follows God or not. They obviously did not want to follow the true Lord but they wanted their false gods and their sin instead.

Try Exodus 4.21.

And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 6, 2017

Hammster said:
But not exclusively. See Romans 9 as well.

When you read Romans 9:17-18: Well, you have to realize it is making a parallel. For there is a parallel being made of how God is Sovereign and just in setting up the Promised Line of the Messiah (i.e. by having mercy on whom He wills) versus raising up Pharaoh into power to show God's power. How was God's power shown in the life of the Pharoah? Well, God allowed Pharoah to be raised up so that God's power was shown in the life of God's miracles being displayed such as the Ten plagues and the parting of the Red Sea. This is why Pharoah was raised up. It was so that God's power (or miracles) could be displayed (and proclaimed to all the Earth). Just as God had chosen the line of the Messiah so as to display His power (and proclaim such a thing to all the Earth). So this was not some kind of point to prove individual election but to prove the Election of the Promised Line of the Messiah (Who is Jesus Christ). For Jesus is the greatest miracle (of the best form of Election) that there is.

Anyways, when you read on down to verse 24 (Romans 9:24), the point is clear what Paul is really talking about.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 6, 2017

lesliedellow said:
Try Exodus 4.21.

And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

The story of Exodus is told from the perspective that the Pharoah ultimately hardened his own heart.

"Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?" (1 Samuel 6:6).

lesliedellow · Sep 6, 2017

Jason0047 said:
The story of Exodus is told from the perspective that the Pharoah ultimately hardened his own heart.

"Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?" (1 Samuel 6:6).

It says as plainly as could be wished for that God had determined to harden Pharaoh's heart, even before Moses had returned to Egypt. Squirm as much as you like; that is what it says.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 6, 2017

Alright, let's get back to the story of Jonah and how that works in the world of Calvinism.

Hammster · Sep 6, 2017

Jason0047 said:
When you read Romans 9:17-18: Well, you have to realize it is making a parallel. For there is a parallel being made of how God is Sovereign and just in setting up the Promised Line of the Messiah (i.e. by having mercy on whom He wills) versus raising up Pharaoh into power to show God's power. How was God's power shown in the life of the Pharoah? Well, God allowed Pharoah to be raised up so that God's power was shown in the life of God's miracles being displayed such as the Ten plagues and the parting of the Red Sea. This is why Pharoah was raised up. It was so that God's power (or miracles) could be displayed (and proclaimed to all the Earth). Just as God had chosen the line of the Messiah so as to display His power (and proclaim such a thing to all the Earth). So this was not some kind of point to prove individual election but to prove the Election of the Promised Line of the Messiah (Who is Jesus Christ). For Jesus is the greatest miracle (of the best form of Election) that there is.

Anyways, when you read on down to verse 24 (Romans 9:24), the point is clear what Paul is really talking about.

I don't recall making a point about election.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 6, 2017

lesliedellow said:
It says as plainly as could be wished for that God had determined Pharaoh's heart even before Moses had returned to Egypt. Squirm as much as you like; that is what it says.

What hardens a person's heart?
I would say it is ultimately a person's sin and not God.

"Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts,..." (Romans 1:24).

"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." (Hebrews 3:13).

Then how can God harden the Pharoah's heart? By allowing the Pharoah to be drawn and enticed away by his own lusts and desires fully. For God cannot tempt man to do evil. (See James 1:13-14). For Pharoah hardening his own heart by refusing to let the Israelites go was sinful because he was not being merciful. God allowing the Pharoah to go down the path of his own sin is what Exodus is talking about. God did not outright and directly harden Pharoah's heart by some kind of Calvinistic means here. That is not what happened. The Pharoah hardened his heart and then God pulled away from talking to his heart and God allowed the Pharoah to harden his heart fully by the Lord no longer talking to his heart anymore. Hence, the words, "God hardened Pharoah's heart." God hardened the Pharoah's heart by God withdrawing from the him by the fact that God was talking to the Pharoah's heart. Remember, God alone is good. All things in this world that are truly good flows from God.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 6, 2017

Hammster said:
I don't recall making a point about election.

You have a certain view on what Romans 9 means. I gave you my commentary on what I believe it says so as to clear up your misunderstanding with it.

lesliedellow · Sep 6, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Then how can God harden the Pharoah's heart? By allowing the Pharoah to be drawn and enticed away by his own lusts and desires fully.

Exactly. And that is what will always happen with fallen men, unless God reforms the hearts of those to whom he intends to show mercy. Pharaoh was obviously one of those predestined to eternal punishment.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 6, 2017

Let's get back to the Story of Jonah and how that works in the world of Calvinism.

How Do Calvinists Explain These Verses in the Story of Jonah?

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Member

Member

Psalm 144:1

Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Psalm 144:1

Psalm 144:1

Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Psalm 144:1

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Similar threads