Terms Queen of heaven and Fully God and fully man... But at the same time?

Status
Not open for further replies.

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,552
12,102
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,178,119.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Oh dear..that's possibly the most embarrassing hashed up manipulated and deformed piece of scriptural interpretation I have ever seen .
Since we all know it speaks of The Easten gate entrance to the city of Jerusalem ..still there and still closed up untill this very day.
It isn't the East gate of the city of Jerusalem but the sanctuary of the temple. If you can't even understand literal references, it's no wonder you are not able to see the prophetic references.
 
Upvote 0

Alithis

Disciple of Jesus .
Nov 11, 2010
15,750
2,180
Mobile
✟101,992.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It isn't the East gate of the city of Jerusalem but the sanctuary of the temple. If you can't even understand literal references, it's no wonder you are not able to see the prophetic references.
And off you go down the rabbit Warren of ambiguity in defence of worshiping your false goddess.
Typical .
And off topic
 
Upvote 0

Alithis

Disciple of Jesus .
Nov 11, 2010
15,750
2,180
Mobile
✟101,992.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It isn't the East gate of the city of Jerusalem but the sanctuary of the temple. If you can't even understand literal references, it's no wonder you are not able to see the prophetic references.
Yeah this gate that gate..one thing it isn't ..it isn't about Mary
Nice misdirection though.
Well done.
It's still rubbish .
 
Upvote 0

Alithis

Disciple of Jesus .
Nov 11, 2010
15,750
2,180
Mobile
✟101,992.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Chapter and verse that states this?
None.. It's not scripture.

This is the part where they really branch off into unbiblical ambiguity. And try real hard to lead the topic down a rabbit Warren ...

I might request a close off
 
  • Like
Reactions: NW82
Upvote 0

Norbert L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 1, 2009
2,856
1,064
✟560,360.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
You do know that “blessed” means happy.
All people will call you happy..
Yup .so there is a vast chasm of difference between making images of some one and bestowing upon them (blasphemous) titles beyond thier station and titles blasphemous... And ..calling them happy.

You should search the scriptures and see how many times scriptures refers to all repentant dinners as “happy”
For _blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity” yup... ALL who live in the righteousness of God are equally blessed..equally happy.
It does not give ANY licence to elevate them and bestow upon them godless titles opposing the one true God who is without beginning and without end and before who there is NO other God.
You do know that's a simplified explanation of being blessed. The word also can be shown to imply a sense of being favored. By focusing on one while ignoring the other is what also needs to be done in order to arrive at the a conclusion of the teaching, "Mary is the Mother of God".

To say blessed means happy doesn't fully explain things like "Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:10 NIV) works. It's a bigger topic.
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,552
12,102
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,178,119.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
And off you go down the rabbit Warren of ambiguity in defence of worshiping your false goddess.
You sound so much like the LBGQT etc. crowd who loudly accuse you of being a bigot and a homophobe if you oppose their agenda.
Typical .
And off topic
You are the one that brought up the gate.
 
Upvote 0

NW82

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2017
831
533
42
Chicago, IL
✟80,336.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Libertarian
Scripture says no such thing. The brothers and sisters are the children of Joseph by his first wife, Salome. Try thinking yourself.
Jesus’ brothers are mentioned in several Bible verses. Matthew 12:46, Luke 8:19, and Mark 3:31 say that Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see Him. The Bible tells us that Jesus had four brothers: James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas (Matthew 13:55). The Bible also tells us that Jesus had sisters, but they are not named or numbered (Matthew 13:56). In John 7:1-10, His brothers go on to the festival while Jesus stays behind. In Acts 1:14, His brothers and mother are described as praying with the disciples. Galatians 1:19 mentions that James was Jesus’ brother. The most natural conclusion of these passages is to interpret that Jesus had actual blood half-siblings.

Some Roman Catholics claim that these “brothers” were actually Jesus’ cousins. However, in each instance, the specific Greek word for “brother” is used. While the word can refer to other relatives, its normal and literal meaning is a physical brother. There was a Greek word for “cousin,” and it was not used. Further, if they were Jesus’ cousins, why would they so often be described as being with Mary, Jesus’ mother? There is nothing in the context of His mother and brothers coming to see Him that even hints that they were anyone other than His literal, blood-related, half-brothers.

A second Roman Catholic argument is that Jesus’ brothers and sisters were the children of Joseph from a previous marriage. An entire theory of Joseph's being significantly older than Mary, having been previously married, having multiple children, and then being widowed before marrying Mary is invented without any biblical basis. The problem with this is that the Bible does not even hint that Joseph was married or had children before he married Mary. If Joseph had at least six children before he married Mary, why are they not mentioned in Joseph and Mary’s trip to Bethlehem (Luke 2:4-7) or their trip to Egypt (Matthew 2:13-15) or their trip back to Nazareth (Matthew 2:20-23)?

There is no biblical reason to believe that these siblings are anything other than the actual children of Joseph and Mary. Those who oppose the idea that Jesus had half-brothers and half-sisters do so, not from a reading of Scripture, but from a preconceived concept of the perpetual virginity of Mary, which is itself clearly unbiblical: “But he (Joseph) had no union with her (Mary) until she gave birth to a son. And he gave Him the name Jesus” (Matthew 1:25). Jesus had half-siblings, half-brothers and half-sisters, who were the children of Joseph and Mary. That is the clear and unambiguous teaching of God’s Word.

Still waiting on Chapter and Verse on Joseph's "prior" marriage.
 
  • Like
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,552
12,102
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,178,119.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Dkh587

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 6, 2014
3,049
1,770
Southeast
✟552,407.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
If He gave it up where did His Deity go?

I think He was changed from a pre-existing divine being to a human. I can't explain exactly how a divine entity can be transferred into a human womb to be born as a man



So you believe there are lesser "god's" and The Son is one of these lesser gods?

Yes, although they are only gods/elohim by the nature. God has many sons in the heavenly realm. They are called the Sons of God. Genesis 6, for example. Psalm 82 as well. "You are all sons of the Most High, but you shall die like men". These divine beings got sentenced to death. If you have the divine nature, you don't die. This doesn't change the fact that the Most High God is the 1 true God. The Messiah is not the Most High God, IMO


The Messiah is the only begotten son. He is unique, one of a kind (John 3:16) & he is above God's other sons in the heavens

I confess him to be the Son of God.


This is a basic misunderstanding of the Trinity. It is three Persons One substance. One God.

The substance is elohim/god: the divine nature. Just like we have a human nature, the Father, Son & Holy Spirit all 3 have the divine nature. I believe they operate together in tri-unity. They are one - just as Adam and Eve were "one" flesh. 2 persons of the same nature(human) operating as 1. Just like the Father, Son & Holy Spirit are 3 beings/entities/persons that all have the same divine nature, operating as 1, even though there are 3 of them


How can He be just a man and still be Lord and Savior?

Matthew 22:

41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 saying,“What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?”

They said to Him, “The Son of David.”

43 He said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying:

44 ‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”’?


45 If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his Son?” 46 And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare question Him anymore.

I can't answer everything - all I can tell you is that the Word of God(a divine being in the Old Testament - Genesis 15:1) was born as a man and dwelt amongst us

I don't look at the Messiah as "just a man". that sounds as if we are downplaying who he is.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Messiah יהושוע

It's okay to acknowledge his human nature that he had when he was walking the earth as a human being.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

kepha31

Regular Member
Jun 15, 2007
1,819
595
72
✟44,439.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Jesus’ brothers are mentioned in several Bible verses. Matthew 12:46, Luke 8:19, and Mark 3:31 say that Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see Him. The Bible tells us that Jesus had four brothers: James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas (Matthew 13:55). The Bible also tells us that Jesus had sisters, but they are not named or numbered (Matthew 13:56). In John 7:1-10, His brothers go on to the festival while Jesus stays behind. In Acts 1:14, His brothers and mother are described as praying with the disciples. Galatians 1:19 mentions that James was Jesus’ brother. The most natural conclusion of these passages is to interpret that Jesus had actual blood half-siblings.

Some Roman Catholics claim that these “brothers” were actually Jesus’ cousins. However, in each instance, the specific Greek word for “brother” is used. While the word can refer to other relatives, its normal and literal meaning is a physical brother. There was a Greek word for “cousin,” and it was not used. Further, if they were Jesus’ cousins, why would they so often be described as being with Mary, Jesus’ mother? There is nothing in the context of His mother and brothers coming to see Him that even hints that they were anyone other than His literal, blood-related, half-brothers.

A second Roman Catholic argument is that Jesus’ brothers and sisters were the children of Joseph from a previous marriage. An entire theory of Joseph's being significantly older than Mary, having been previously married, having multiple children, and then being widowed before marrying Mary is invented without any biblical basis. The problem with this is that the Bible does not even hint that Joseph was married or had children before he married Mary. If Joseph had at least six children before he married Mary, why are they not mentioned in Joseph and Mary’s trip to Bethlehem (Luke 2:4-7) or their trip to Egypt (Matthew 2:13-15) or their trip back to Nazareth (Matthew 2:20-23)?

There is no biblical reason to believe that these siblings are anything other than the actual children of Joseph and Mary. Those who oppose the idea that Jesus had half-brothers and half-sisters do so, not from a reading of Scripture, but from a preconceived concept of the perpetual virginity of Mary, which is itself clearly unbiblical: “But he (Joseph) had no union with her (Mary) until she gave birth to a son. And he gave Him the name Jesus” (Matthew 1:25). Jesus had half-siblings, half-brothers and half-sisters, who were the children of Joseph and Mary. That is the clear and unambiguous teaching of God’s Word.

Still waiting on Chapter and Verse on Joseph's "prior" marriage.
Just because something is absent from Scripture does not mean it is non-existent. That is a false man made Protestant tradition. Your nonsense about Jesus siblings was invented in the 19th century by atheists and radical Protestants. It stems from Modernism, the synthesis of all heresies. Before that, not a single church on the planet taught Jesus had siblings. It's a recent false man made tradition contradicted by Scripture, authentic history and even Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli taught the PVoM. That is easy to prove because it is so well documented.

But a Protestant can protest their own reformers, their pastor, their family, their church, because in Protestantism, one can deify their private opinions, the worst form of idolatry.

I present this argument ecumenically using Scripture alone, to prove that these “brothers” and “sisters” are NOT the children of Joseph and Mary, and that the belief in Mary’s perpetual virginity is in no way refuted by the New Testament.

Jesus Brothers and Mary's Perpetual Virginity -- Catholic Apologetics, Philosophy, Spirituality
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: Monk Brendan
Upvote 0

disciple1

Newbie
Aug 1, 2012
2,168
546
✟62,178.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The thief didn't go to heaven, but paradise.
Paul used a spiritual term when he said the departed are asleep in Christ.
Luke chapter 20 verse 38
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."
 
Upvote 0

Marvin Knox

Senior Veteran
May 9, 2014
4,291
1,453
✟84,588.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Next comes the gang up.
Its a predictable pattern .
A well deserved gang up IMO.
I might request a close off
I don't doubt it.

While I agree with you on a few things - many of your arguments don't hold water and when you can't adequately defend them you run like a rabbit.
Does bible scripture actually say Jesus was fully man and fully Godvatvthe same time ?
No It doesn't.
Yes it does.
The question is not is Jesus the word of God .
The question is ...was he fully man and fully God AT THE SAME TIME .
Yes He was.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...............And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us"

If you have a Bible handy, I suggest you open it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,425
26,867
Pacific Northwest
✟731,201.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Your trying hard .but sorry wrong.
The question is not is Jesus the word of God .
The question is ...was he fully man and fully God AT THE SAME TIME .
?
Scripture never used those words
They are added.

Ah, so your problem is that the Bible never explicitly says "God and man at the same time", using those precise words. I see, so naturally you would be consistent with this right? Unless the Bible explicitly says something, using explicit and precise words, then it's not biblical or true, correct? Thus because the Bible never says "The Bible is the word of God" then you would agree then the Bible isn't the word of God?

And the same challenge goes to you.
You SAY you don't worship Mary.
Good. Prove it.
Take an image of her renounce that she is anything but a mortal wronan born of Adam ..smash or burn the image.
After all its not her..it's just an image.
An idol in fact.
If you bought me an image of budah..to my house I would do exactly that to it.
And image of any million false Hindu gods will all get similar treatment.

An image of the dead body of Jesus on the cross will also get the same treatment because my Redeemer lives.he is not a dead image .
I won't violate the law of God and then spend hours justifying it.
You can convince 100million men .But it is God you Will stand and give account to.

I tell you what, I'll take this seriously as soon as you take all the images of your own mother, condemn them, tear them up into pieces, and burn them. Once you can show me that you don't worship your own mother by destroying all the images of her that you have, then I'll consider taking the images of Mary I have and destroying them. And if you aren't willing to do this then actions speak louder than words, and then that's how I know you worship your own mother as a pagan goddess.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,425
26,867
Pacific Northwest
✟731,201.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Ah, the martyr complex.

Your posts tend to invite it. You remind me of this ad regarding safety at railway crossings.

Well, I know what my earworm today will be now.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
72
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟294,430.00
Country
United States
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
We have established that the presence of Mary is utterly unrequired for salvation.

Sorry, but you haven't established anything of the sort. The presence of Mary was required, because without her "YES" Jesus would not have been born at that particular time and place where He needed to be born. The God/Man Jesus Christ came into the world at just the right time, in accordance with God's will.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
72
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟294,430.00
Country
United States
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Lets do away with the dishonesty shall we. We all know I have not once denied who Jesus is.

How about this post?
It states be became flesh..not he became God. Mary did not birth God.nor mother God who has no beginning and no end . don't waffle on about essence.

BINGO!! Right there you denied that Jesus was God, because you said that Mary did not give birth to God. How, then, did Jesus because God? And when? And why did God wait until just that time?

Remember that when Jesus went to Jerusalem for Passover when He was 12, He astounded the elders at the Temple. (Luke 2:49) “And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?”

So even at 12 years old, He knew that He was God!
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.