Delusion?

ByTheSpirit said in post #1:

Delusion?

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One key delusion which Christians need to be careful not to be deceived by is the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7) and that Christians won't forever be in the flesh. For the Bible shows on the 3rd day after His death (Luke 24:46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4), Jesus Christ wasn't resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but in his human, flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That's why His tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6) and He still has the wounds of the crucifixion on His resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 didn't stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven. For He will remain forever the human mediator/high priest of Christians (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like they're in human flesh (Hebrews 2:17). And when He returns, He will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on His resurrection body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

Gnosticism mistakenly thinks flesh is evil in itself, and only pure spirit can be good. But Jesus proves flesh isn't evil in itself, for He has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39), and remains without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves flesh isn't evil in itself, but was created by God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). Adam and Eve were flesh, for they were the progenitors of the human race alive today. And they were immortal before they fell into sin, for it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. And so the future resurrection (if dead) or changing (if alive) of Christians into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will be God allowing them to partake of the original, immortal-flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.

Also, beware the more-general Gnostic lie that even the entire physical universe is evil in itself, and only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good. For this lie is employed by Gnosticism to wrongly revile the Creator God YHWH as an evil, tyrant, lesser god, whom Gnosticism says created the physical universe to be the foul prison house of human spirits, whom Gnosticism says by mistake fell from bliss in a purely-spiritual heaven down into the physical universe, to become trapped in suffering, fleshly bodies. No doubt the future Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows our physical world was created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

And the Bible shows the whole plan of Creation wasn't that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14), and that God would ultimately come down from heaven to live with man on a future, New Earth (Revelation 21:1-4), just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8). Also, on the New Earth, Christians will be allowed to eat from the literal tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve hadn't been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16-17). So, with regard to Christians, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. Christians will be able to live in an earthly, physical paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and their descendants might have done had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.

So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.

Bible2+ said:

Note that the crux of the matter remains that the details of the Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 have never been fulfilled.

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I rest my case for Matthew 24. We've each presented our evidence, and I'm confident that our readers can reach their own conclusions.

jgr said in post #182:

I rest my case for Matthew 24. We've each presented our evidence, and I'm confident that our readers can reach their own conclusions.

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Fair enough. Let the jury decide (although in this case, as all others, only time itself will prove which conclusions were correct).

But note that in this case it's impossible to separate Matthew 24 from Revelation chapters 6 to 18, as they both refer to the Tribulation immediately after which Jesus Christ's Second Coming will occur (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:3).

Also, just as all the details of Matthew 24 weren't fulfilled in 70 AD, so the myriad details of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have never been fulfilled.

For example, the weird locust-like beings in Revelation 9:7-10, and the subsequent army of 200 million weird horse-like beings in Revelation 9:16-19, could both be literal, and could both be seen by the world as "aliens", or "demons", when in fact they could both be animal species which evolved or were miraculously created (at 2 different times) on the earth millions of years ago. The weird locust-like beings are currently living, or are in some state of extended hibernation, in the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-3,11), which may have a physical manifestation as a deep underground cavern. The top of this cavern could be deep under the city of Abadan (in Iran), just as the bottomless pit is under the angel Abaddon (Revelation 9:11). The weird locust-like beings will swarm up from the bottomless pit to torment mankind with excruciating stings for 5 months (Revelation 9:2-10). They won't kill anyone, but they will make those they sting want to die, the pain will be so bad (Revelation 9:5-6). They will hurt people who don't have a seal of God on their forehead (Revelation 9:4, cf. Revelation 7:3-4).

The world could see these locust-like beings as aliens who had lain dormant in deep underground caverns (like in the X-Files). The locust-like beings will be shaped like horses prepared for battle (Revelation 9:7). They will have heads on which they will have as it were crowns like gold (Revelation 9:7b). They will have faces as the faces of men (Revelation 9:7c), hair as the hair of women (Revelation 9:8), teeth as the teeth of lions (Revelation 9:8b), and breastplates as it were breastplates of iron (Revelation 9:9). They will have wings, the sound of which will be as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle (Revelation 9:9b). And they will have tails like unto scorpions (Revelation 9:10), and stingers in their tails (Revelation 9:10b).

Regarding the subsequent, weird horse-like beings (Revelation 9:16-19), because they will have to come from somewhere, and it could be difficult to keep 200 million of them hidden on the earth, they could currently be living, or be in some state of extended hibernation, in hidden underground bases somewhere away from the earth, such as on the far side of the moon, and/or on the next planet out from the sun (they could even be a source of the mysterious methane emissions which have been detected in places emanating from beneath the 4th planet's surface).

The 200 million literal, weird horse-like beings of the Tribulation's 6th trumpet (Revelation 9:16-19) haven't come upon the earth yet (as is sometimes claimed), because 1/3 of mankind hasn't been killed by them yet (Revelation 9:18).

Bible2+ said:

But note that in this case it's impossible to separate Matthew 24 from Revelation chapters 6 to 18, as they both refer to the Tribulation immediately after which Jesus Christ's Second Coming will occur (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:3).

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There is no relationship between the Matthew and Revelation passages.

Bible2+ said:

Also, just as all the details of Matthew 24 weren't fulfilled in 70 AD, so the myriad details of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have never been fulfilled.

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The majority of Matthew 24 was fulfilled by 70 AD.

Bible2+ said:

For example, the weird locust-like beings in Revelation 9:7-10, and the subsequent army of 200 million weird horse-like beings in Revelation 9:16-19, could both be literal, and could both be seen by the world as "aliens", or "demons", when in fact they could both be animal species which evolved or were miraculously created (at 2 different times) on the earth millions of years ago. The weird locust-like beings are currently living, or are in some state of extended hibernation, in the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-3,11), which may have a physical manifestation as a deep underground cavern. The top of this cavern could be deep under the city of Abadan (in Iran), just as the bottomless pit is under the angel Abaddon (Revelation 9:11). The weird locust-like beings will swarm up from the bottomless pit to torment mankind with excruciating stings for 5 months (Revelation 9:2-10). They won't kill anyone, but they will make those they sting want to die, the pain will be so bad (Revelation 9:5-6). They will hurt people who don't have a seal of God on their forehead (Revelation 9:4, cf. Revelation 7:3-4).

The world could see these locust-like beings as aliens who had lain dormant in deep underground caverns (like in the X-Files). The locust-like beings will be shaped like horses prepared for battle (Revelation 9:7). They will have heads on which they will have as it were crowns like gold (Revelation 9:7b). They will have faces as the faces of men (Revelation 9:7c), hair as the hair of women (Revelation 9:8), teeth as the teeth of lions (Revelation 9:8b), and breastplates as it were breastplates of iron (Revelation 9:9). They will have wings, the sound of which will be as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle (Revelation 9:9b). And they will have tails like unto scorpions (Revelation 9:10), and stingers in their tails (Revelation 9:10b).

Regarding the subsequent, weird horse-like beings (Revelation 9:16-19), because they will have to come from somewhere, and it could be difficult to keep 200 million of them hidden on the earth, they could currently be living, or be in some state of extended hibernation, in hidden underground bases somewhere away from the earth, such as on the far side of the moon, and/or on the next planet out from the sun (they could even be a source of the mysterious methane emissions which have been detected in places emanating from beneath the 4th planet's surface).

The 200 million literal, weird horse-like beings of the Tribulation's 6th trumpet (Revelation 9:16-19) haven't come upon the earth yet (as is sometimes claimed), because 1/3 of mankind hasn't been killed by them yet (Revelation 9:18).

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You're once again failing the literality test. They are not weird locust-like beings or weird horse-like beings, but actual locusts and horses, according to the scripture. There is no mention or implication of evolution or miraculous creation; both locusts and horses already exist. The pit is bottomless and filled with smoke; no living breathing organism could survive its conditions. There is no mention or implication of an underground cavern; a pit which is bottomless must extend completely through the earth to open out on the other side. There is no mention or implication of Abadan. The locusts would be unable to swarm up from the bottomless pit because they would have been asphyxiated by smoke. Locusts shaped as horses, with crowns, faces, teeth, etc. would no longer be recognized as locusts. We're not told how many horses there are, only that there are 200 million horsemen. There is no mention or implication of where either the horsemen or horses would be residing, but since neither hibernate, nor could survive anywhere other than on earth, the moon or planets are not an option. There is also no mention or implication of food sources for them, so they could not be emitting methane. Once again, there are 200 million horsemen, and no mention of the number of horses. They were afflicting men, so they were already on the earth.


I say, I'm going to have to visit my psychiatrist after this to ensure that this exercise doesn't turn me into a psychotic.

ByTheSpirit said:

Has the strong delusion that Paul speaks of in 2 Thessalonians 2 already come?

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No, the Antichrist must be revealed first.

ByTheSpirit said in post #1:

Delusion?

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Christians need to remember that the ultimate source of delusion in the world is the person of Satan himself:

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

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Satan, who is a literal, 7-headed, red, serpentine dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), also called Leviathan (Isaiah 27:1, Psalms 74:14, Job 41:1,34), could have begun his existence as a dinosaur born some 66 million years ago, near the end the age of the dinosaurs. Over millions of years before his birth, his dinosaur species could have evolved (or been miraculously granted by God) to have consciousness as we know it. And his 7-headedness, which could have been a fortuitous (or a miraculous) mutation, could have been heralded by his species as the arrival of a super-consciousness into the world. As he grew up as a conscious dinosaur, Leviathan could have come to know and worship God with all his heart. God could have then granted him immortality and taken him into heaven to serve God as a cherub. Cherubim are a type of angelic being (Ezekiel 10) which could include individuals shaped like different animals, like how seraphim are a different type of angelic being (Isaiah 6:2-3) which includes individuals shaped like different animals (Revelation 4:7-8). As a cherub in heaven, Leviathan could have been assigned to the office of "the morning star", and so been given the name "Lucifer", which means "the morning star".

After spending some 66 million years in heaven as a very contented cherub, perhaps even as one of the greatest angelic beings in heaven, Lucifer could have been assigned by God to go to the earth to be a "covering cherub" over the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 28:13-14), to watch over that special, local garden and its special, individual humans named Adam and Eve miraculously created by God only some 6,000 years ago. God could have also at that time given the as-yet-unfallen Lucifer authority over all the rest of the earth (cf. Luke 4:5-6). But Lucifer could have chafed at his new assignment, seeing it as wholly beneath his dignity. He could have felt like a long-time chief of staff of a U.S. President would feel if he were suddenly assigned by the President to leave his high position in the White House to go baby-sit 2 pet salamanders in a hothouse in Alaska.

From Eden, Lucifer could have repeatedly requested God to let him return to his high position in heaven, only to be refused, until Lucifer in his heart fell into rebellion against God, and vowed to himself that eventually he would ascend back into heaven and take rule over all the angelic beings there, regardless of what God wanted (Isaiah 14:13-14). And so the fallen Lucifer became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18), which means the "Adversary". While still in Eden, as possibly his first act of open rebellion against God, Satan decided to deceive Eve into disobeying God (Genesis 3), knowing this would result in her (and her offspring) becoming mortal (Genesis 2:17). In the future, he will deceive the world (Revelation 12:9) into worshipping himself and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-8), knowing this will result in billions of people ending up in eternal suffering (Revelation 14:9-11), the same eternal suffering which he knows he himself will end up in (Revelation 12:12c, Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

Lucifer will deceive the world into worshipping him after he loses a war in heaven at the midpoint of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and is cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:7 to 13:4). But instead of coming down looking defeated, he could descend to the earth in a magnificent, gigantic golden spaceship for all the world to see. The world could see him as an alien, but he could slither forth from his spaceship and say something like: "Greetings! Be not alarmed. I assure you I am no alien, but a fellow earthling, born and raised on this planet millions of years ago. I've come to help you through this terrible tribulation you're experiencing, and to show you how you might eventually return with me back into a much better, higher realm of existence wholly beyond this evil, material universe".

He could then foist upon the world an updated version of an ancient Gnostic lie: "Listen, my fellow earthlings! None of us belong here. We didn't start out here, but all started out as wholly-spiritual beings, even wholly-divine beings, residing in utter bliss from all eternity in the Pleroma, what you would call Heaven, the higher realm which I will eventually take you back to. During the endless ages of our past existence in the Pleroma, we were not averse to partaking in a great variety of different entertainments. So when YHWH, who was one of us, yet of greater consciousness than any one of us, announced he had devised a marvelous new form of entertainment, we were ready to give it a try.

"YHWH said he had created a physical universe (this one), which to us was like what you would call a virtual reality, like the ones you create using computers. And he said we could enter this universe and interact with all of its amazing physical life-forms and objects by temporarily taking upon ourselves physical bodies, which to us was the equivalent of what you would call a virtual-reality headset, gloves, etc., which some of you wear on your bodies when you want to wholly immerse yourselves in the virtual realities you create with computers.

"But then YHWH proposed another aspect to his entertainment which we all most foolishly accepted. He said in order to increase the intensity of our experience in his universe, he would use his greater consciousness to hypnotize each of ours, so while we were in his universe each of us would think all we were were physical entities within his material universe; we would completely forget we were actually wholly-divine beings, and had been from all eternity, dwelling in bliss in the Pleroma.

"When one of us asked YHWH: 'But what if we don't like our experience in your universe and want to exit it and return here to the Pleroma, how could we ever notify you of our wishes when under your hypnotic spell we will have no knowledge of that option?' YHWH answered in a very assuring manner that he would be able to instantly extricate any one of us whom he saw wasn't enjoying his new entertainment. We all believed him, because he hadn't yet shown his true nature to anyone. We had no idea that in his heart he was actually an evil, cruel tyrant who all along had been planning to imprison, enslave, and torture all of us within his diabolical device (this physical universe).

"But during my great sufferings in YHWH's physical realm, and the great struggles of my consciousness, my spirit, to find a way of escaping it, my spirit eventually grew in power to be equal to YHWH's, and so I was able to break myself free from his hypnotic spell, and regain all of my divine power. I can show you the way to do the same thing, but you must be willing to join with me now with all of your own consciousnesses, your own spirits. You must be willing to love and worship me now completely, so that the power of all of your spirits might become joined with the power of my own, greater spirit, and eventually break completely free from YHWH's hypnotic spell. Then you will regain all of your own, divine power, like I did, and together we will defeat YHWH, and we will escape this vile, material universe, and ascend back to the Pleroma and to our bliss as gods, doing what we please, forever".

The world will actually believe this lie (or something similar to it), for it will be accompanied by the most amazing miracles (e.g. Revelation 13:13) performed by the power of Lucifer/Satan himself (2 Thessalonians 2:9), and because it will be accompanied by a strong delusion sent by YHWH God on the unrepentant world (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). But the world will worship Lucifer (and his human son the Antichrist) for less than 4 years (Revelation 13:4-18, Daniel 12:11-12) before Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3). Jesus will then set up his own, 1,000-year, physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected Church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).