John 10:30 isn't a 'trinitarian' text.

It's kinda strange. If one must believe Christ is the one true God to Inherit eternal life, then the Bible does not state what one must believe to Inherit eternal life. For no biblical text states that.
Which would have to mean, the Apostles badly let down their readers, and God by not explaining to them what they must believe to Inherit eternal life.
It could be seen as bringing the Bible into disrepute

Dartman said:

This sounds like a poorly disguised admission that without
"Church traditions", you haven't got Scripture to establish your theory.

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Well, without the work of the "Church" and at least SOME of its Traditions, then you and I wouldn't have the New Testament canonized as we have it today, now would we? Unless you want to proffer that the New Testament fell out of the sky and went ka-plunk at the doorstep of the Apostles all in one piece.

A further problem: one cannot simply "use Scripture to interpret Scripture" in each and every case with each and every verse. Sometimes, the only way to know what some concept refers to within a verse, or even for the identity of a book, is for you and I to actually KNOW something that is outside of, and not contained within, the New Testament (or maybe not even in the Old Testament). For instance, the Gospels are essentially anonymous writings. How do we know that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John specifically wrote the very Gospels that both of us hold in our hands right now? It couldn't by chance be..."Church Tradition," could it?

2PhiloVoid

Dartman said:

Hey, if you are willing to limit your "Traditions" to those recorded in the canon, I will go along with that!

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That misses the point. Do you concede, or do you not concede, that there are things within the New Testament that we as a Church now can only KNOW via "Church Tradition" that are not in the actual writings of the New Testament. Yes or no?

If you can't answer this, there's probably no need for me to continue in discussion because it would mean that you prefer eisegesis over exegesis, personalized guessing as to what YOU think Scripture means versus the collective insights of the Church as a whole, both right and wrong, that make up Church Tradition, and that you may just be a one-man show.

Hopefully we would all agree, that Gods requirement, as to who his son must be believed to be to Inherit eternal life has not changed since Christ died at Calvary. Pre nicea countless Christians solely believed Jesus to be the Son of God, not the one true God. it was only then, 300 years after Christ died at Calvary the church made official doctrine, Christ us the one true God and this must be believed to Inherit eternal life.
So is the church responsible for countless people being cast into hell who believed they were Christians pre nicea but didn't have the correct belief to Inherit eternal life?

Dartman said:

I heartily agree.
Even though I do NOT endorce Creeds, the earliest creed, the so called "Apostles Creed" (written about 150AD), is a stark contrast to the apostasy recorded in 325!

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried.

He descended into hell. The third day He rose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.
From thence He will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Christian Church, the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

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Yes, the Apostles creed is scripturally 100 percent accurate. Great words

Dartman said:

What a difference 200 years can make!

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In my view, after those two hundred years scholars and theologians held sway.

Dartman said:

Who do you think the sheep are?

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I think the sheep are...not directly God.

2PhiloVoid said:

You're exactly right! John 10:30 doesn't indicate that Jesus is God all by itself. Thank goodness we also have John 10:31-39 to give us the added context and to clear all of that up!

Isn't hermeneutics great!

2PhiloVoid

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Actually, that doesn't help the Trinitarian view.

In that, Jesus makes the point that in the Old Testament, God said "I have said ye are gods". So Jesus was pointing out that if God said that in the Old Testament, why were the people calling him a blasphemer for saying he was the Son of God if God in the Old Testament said that humans are "gods".

CrystalDragon said:

Actually, that doesn't help the Trinitarian view.

In that, Jesus makes the point that in the Old Testament, God said "I have said ye are gods". So Jesus was pointing out that if God said that in the Old Testament, why were the people calling him a blasphemer for saying he was the Son of God if God in the Old Testament said that humans are "gods".

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Crystal, if you're going to point this out as something that supposedly counts against what I'm saying, you better draw some sources out, or I'll basically not take your point seriously.

As to the point about Jesus saying they were "gods," there are various interpretations, so either, you've read one or two of them and are presenting that to me, or you are reading it for yourself, doing your own individual interpretation and then pawning it on me as if it's something significant I should take into account.

Start citing your sources if you want me to take you seriously.

Dartman said:

This sounds like a poorly disguised admission that without
"Church traditions", you haven't got Scripture to establish your theory.

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I'm guessing that to you it does sound that way. And to me, you position sounds like one that is overtly simplistic and in denial of the various contexts that come to play in the process of our overall hermeneutical considerations. So....it sounds like we're at an impasse, because not only will we disagree on what specific verses mean, we'll also disagree on the methodology as to how we should arrive at our respective interpretations.

I guess one other thing I'm not clear on, at the moment, is whether you are a proponent of 'oneness' theology, which still defines Jesus as God, or if you are of some other influence, and you're trying to say that Jesus isn't God. Which is it?

2PhiloVoid

Dartman said:

Lately there have been repeated attempts to make John 10:30 a 'trinitarian' proof text.
Each time the effort has failed.
The text simply doesn't support the trinity at all.
It merely states Jesus and his God are "one".
It doesn't state how.
Nor does the context.
We are left to find other Scriptures that explain "how" Jesus and his God are "one".

The CLASSIC text for this topic is;
John 17:18-23 As Thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which Thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved me.

In this text we prove two VERY important things;
1) The believers are "ONE", JUST LIKE Jesus and his God are "one"!
2) It is God's words (LOGOS), that creates this unity!

So, when Jesus states in John 10:30, "I and my Father are one", we KNOW exactly HOW they are one;
John 12:49-50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

So, now that we are clear on John 10:30, please don't continue to misuse the text!

Click to expand...

Dartman said:

Lately there have been repeated attempts to make John 10:30 a 'trinitarian' proof text.
Each time the effort has failed.
The text simply doesn't support the trinity at all.
It merely states Jesus and his God are "one".
It doesn't state how.
Nor does the context.
We are left to find other Scriptures that explain "how" Jesus and his God are "one".

The CLASSIC text for this topic is;
John 17:18-23 As Thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which Thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved me.

In this text we prove two VERY important things;
1) The believers are "ONE", JUST LIKE Jesus and his God are "one"!
2) It is God's words (LOGOS), that creates this unity!

So, when Jesus states in John 10:30, "I and my Father are one", we KNOW exactly HOW they are one;
John 12:49-50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

So, now that we are clear on John 10:30, please don't continue to misuse the text!

Click to expand...

Dartman said:

Lately there have been repeated attempts to make John 10:30 a 'trinitarian' proof text.
Each time the effort has failed.
The text simply doesn't support the trinity at all.
It merely states Jesus and his God are "one".
It doesn't state how.
Nor does the context.
We are left to find other Scriptures that explain "how" Jesus and his God are "one".

The CLASSIC text for this topic is;
John 17:18-23 As Thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which Thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved me.

In this text we prove two VERY important things;
1) The believers are "ONE", JUST LIKE Jesus and his God are "one"!
2) It is God's words (LOGOS), that creates this unity!

So, when Jesus states in John 10:30, "I and my Father are one", we KNOW exactly HOW they are one;
John 12:49-50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

So, now that we are clear on John 10:30, please don't continue to misuse the text!

Click to expand...

Dartman said:

Lately there have been repeated attempts to make John 10:30 a 'trinitarian' proof text.
Each time the effort has failed.
The text simply doesn't support the trinity at all.
It merely states Jesus and his God are "one".
It doesn't state how.
Nor does the context.
We are left to find other Scriptures that explain "how" Jesus and his God are "one".

The CLASSIC text for this topic is;
John 17:18-23 As Thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which Thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved me.

In this text we prove two VERY important things;
1) The believers are "ONE", JUST LIKE Jesus and his God are "one"!
2) It is God's words (LOGOS), that creates this unity!

So, when Jesus states in John 10:30, "I and my Father are one", we KNOW exactly HOW they are one;
John 12:49-50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

So, now that we are clear on John 10:30, please don't continue to misuse the text!

Click to expand...

After Jesus said I and my Father are one, the Jews picked up stones to throw at Him.

Why did they do that?